Introducing the X4: Envoy Pack - Stealth, Deception, and Strategy Await

[vvvvvvvv]

It seems the above posts are mainly focusing on amount of content now. Yet the problem I continue to see with several of these points is if I do not look at the amount of content itself but the ratio of content to price.

Niche things will have worse ratio.

See DCS world example already mentioned. Because the game is niche, and specific plane will only interest a fraction of people, it is priced high. Similar thing happens with x-plane. At the moment, the most expensive helicopter is $45. And an airliner is $119.

It is possible to argue that both Hyperion and Envoy is a more niche content. It is also possible to argue whether that was articulated in adverts.

--edit--

I think I found a potential issue, actually.

One point about ship DLC like Hyperion and Envoy could be that they include new sectors. That could be seen as a push to buy. Because with DLC you'll have an incomplete map, with a hole in it. But in case of Hyperion, for example, I was looking for a ship and not sector and not the short story. Because for a story to be fun, it should be a bit longer.

Something for devs to ponder, maybe?

[Raptor34]

It seems the above posts are mainly focusing on amount of content now. Yet the problem I continue to see with several of these points is if I do not look at the amount of content itself but the ratio of content to price.

Niche things will have worse ratio.

See DCS world example already mentioned. Because the game is niche, and specific plane will only interest a fraction of people, it is priced high. Similar thing happens with x-plane. At the moment, the most expensive helicopter is $45. And an airliner is $119.

It is possible to argue that both Hyperion and Envoy is a more niche content. It is also possible to argue whether that was articulated in adverts.

--edit--

I think I found a potential issue, actually.

One point about ship DLC like Hyperion and Envoy could be that they include new sectors. That could be seen as a push to buy. Because with DLC you'll have an incomplete map, with a hole in it. But in case of Hyperion, for example, I was looking for a ship and not sector and not the short story. Because for a story to be fun, it should be a bit longer.

Something for devs to ponder, maybe?

So they should just give a ship and ditch the sector and story?
Personally I wouldn't care either way, not like the sector is special, and the story... Eh. At least it isn't long and tedious I'll give it that.

[vvvvvvvv]

So they should just give a ship and ditch the sector and story?
Personally I wouldn't care either way, not like the sector is special, and the story... Eh. At least it isn't long and tedious I'll give it that.

It is up to them what they "should" do. My expectation was a ship and nothing else. For Hyperion, the story felt short and rushed. It was sort of nice it was there but it didn't really matter.

[Nerwesta]

My main issue is that this ship have unique abilities. Someone mentioned that the game is SP afterall, so it's not like balancing is as much as a problem.
Not sure what to make of this, if a DLCs steer the abilities of the player further unequally from the NPCs, then it's simply not enjoyable to me, it destroys the very reason the game has a persistent world with proper economies, full set of ships for anyone or most of the NPCs factions, and comparable abilities.

Not like " let me buy this unique piece nobody else will use ".
I'm fine with the Hyperion, but the Envoy is a slippery slope.

This stuff was bluntly pushed already with Timelines.
Speaking of which ...

They can put 70% behind a DLC and push out 30% for free - or they can push out 70% for free and put 30% behind a DLC.

The question and main concern is: Will that truly stay that way? Or will the 100% per update end up becoming 50% or less slowly (eg ai voices, less content overall, less effort)? Or will it even shift to 30% effort/content and 100% payed? Which judging by other examples is why I am not eager on supporting this practice, concerned about it actually. I believe it would be fitting for them to either return to the bigger dlcs (the safer option), adjust the prices to be more fair to the actual content within the dlc (not safe perhaps, but at least it would give me a bit of a trust boost), or give another reason to belive them that this will not end up like so many other games (which seems like an incredibly risky gamble to take to me).

It already happened with Timelines, the DLC felt a bit too cheap in my opinion, with plenty of very forgettable activities that could be anyway experienced organically throughout the open universe without an unimmersive do-this or do-that.
I'm sad I'm noticing a trend here.

[LameFox]

On stories... I actually kinda wish they'd only use them when the story is worth telling for its own sake. If you're adding a story just to gate unlocks, but you also want the unlocks to be super easy to get, your opportunity for storytelling is extremely limited.

In the Hyperion pack for example I'd have been fine with the factions just pressing it into service with the explanation in the ship's description that one of them uncovered and refined the design, only for the other to steal it. Then you could have the player find their free one drifting and use environmental storytelling to suggest how it ended up left there. The actual quest for it just felt shallow and like it was rushing me through it in a hurry, almost as if the game itself wanted to get it over with. I'd rather discover things at my own pace and fill in the blanks with imagination than have things like that.

[Raptor34]

My main issue is that this ship have unique abilities. Someone mentioned that the game is SP afterall, so it's not like balancing is as much as a problem.
Not sure what to make of this, if a DLCs steer the abilities of the player further unequally from the NPCs, then it's simply not enjoyable to me, it destroys the very reason the game has a persistent world with proper economies, full set of ships for anyone or most of the NPCs factions, and comparable abilities.

Not like " let me buy this unique piece nobody else will use ".
I'm fine with the Hyperion, but the Envoy is a slippery slope.

This stuff was bluntly pushed already with Timelines.
Speaking of which ...

They can put 70% behind a DLC and push out 30% for free - or they can push out 70% for free and put 30% behind a DLC.

The question and main concern is: Will that truly stay that way? Or will the 100% per update end up becoming 50% or less slowly (eg ai voices, less content overall, less effort)? Or will it even shift to 30% effort/content and 100% payed? Which judging by other examples is why I am not eager on supporting this practice, concerned about it actually. I believe it would be fitting for them to either return to the bigger dlcs (the safer option), adjust the prices to be more fair to the actual content within the dlc (not safe perhaps, but at least it would give me a bit of a trust boost), or give another reason to belive them that this will not end up like so many other games (which seems like an incredibly risky gamble to take to me).

It already happened with Timelines, the DLC felt a bit too cheap in my opinion, with plenty of very forgettable activities that could be anyway experienced organically throughout the open universe without an unimmersive do-this or do-that.
I'm sad I'm noticing a trend here.

Timelines was high effort compared to others because of all the story they included imo. So you saying it's cheap is just proving my point. That value is in the eye of the beholder, and that talking about how much content it has is pointless. What's important is whether that content is something people want, not whether the content exists.

[Nerwesta]

My main issue is that this ship have unique abilities. Someone mentioned that the game is SP afterall, so it's not like balancing is as much as a problem.
Not sure what to make of this, if a DLCs steer the abilities of the player further unequally from the NPCs, then it's simply not enjoyable to me, it destroys the very reason the game has a persistent world with proper economies, full set of ships for anyone or most of the NPCs factions, and comparable abilities.

Not like " let me buy this unique piece nobody else will use ".
I'm fine with the Hyperion, but the Envoy is a slippery slope.

This stuff was bluntly pushed already with Timelines.
Speaking of which ...

The question and main concern is: Will that truly stay that way? Or will the 100% per update end up becoming 50% or less slowly (eg ai voices, less content overall, less effort)? Or will it even shift to 30% effort/content and 100% payed? Which judging by other examples is why I am not eager on supporting this practice, concerned about it actually. I believe it would be fitting for them to either return to the bigger dlcs (the safer option), adjust the prices to be more fair to the actual content within the dlc (not safe perhaps, but at least it would give me a bit of a trust boost), or give another reason to belive them that this will not end up like so many other games (which seems like an incredibly risky gamble to take to me).

It already happened with Timelines, the DLC felt a bit too cheap in my opinion, with plenty of very forgettable activities that could be anyway experienced organically throughout the open universe without an unimmersive do-this or do-that.
I'm sad I'm noticing a trend here.

Timelines was high effort compared to others because of all the story they included imo. So you saying it's cheap is just proving my point. That value is in the eye of the beholder, and that talking about how much content it has is pointless. What's important is whether that content is something people want, not whether the content exists.

Excuse me, a good chunk of the "stories" were just activities we could normally do but with a sugar coating of texts and nostalgia for some I guess.
Except this time, it's not connected to our own story.
It's not high effort at all, beginning with the introduction with weird dialogues.

Let's not talk about the " mining challenge " when you basically go back and forth mining stuff and dropping it under a chrono, very high effort.
Or perhaps " how many ships can you kill on that locked loadout ", sorry but I can do that without the wall of text to read on my own ship.
The races could have been again in the open universe ( and I simply didn't enjoy it mind you )
The EVA stuff was ... interesting to say the least, as if Egosoft knew perfectly well we all enjoy that normally.
Finally, some battles were broken or overly difficult, despite the fact Egosoft weirdly branded it as a good introduction for new players.

Honestly, I found the Boron plot far more engaging instead of the whole "self contained" stories you hop left and right.
Kingdom's End have a lot of interesting moments, which are all happening in the open universe, on a fully fledged DLC.


PS : you don't need to prove anything when Timelines received an awful lot of negative reviews for a X4 DLC, and it doesn't need to be review bombed because on how passionated the community is on that niche game.

[Raptor34]

My main issue is that this ship have unique abilities. Someone mentioned that the game is SP afterall, so it's not like balancing is as much as a problem.
Not sure what to make of this, if a DLCs steer the abilities of the player further unequally from the NPCs, then it's simply not enjoyable to me, it destroys the very reason the game has a persistent world with proper economies, full set of ships for anyone or most of the NPCs factions, and comparable abilities.

Not like " let me buy this unique piece nobody else will use ".
I'm fine with the Hyperion, but the Envoy is a slippery slope.

This stuff was bluntly pushed already with Timelines.
Speaking of which ...



It already happened with Timelines, the DLC felt a bit too cheap in my opinion, with plenty of very forgettable activities that could be anyway experienced organically throughout the open universe without an unimmersive do-this or do-that.
I'm sad I'm noticing a trend here.

Timelines was high effort compared to others because of all the story they included imo. So you saying it's cheap is just proving my point. That value is in the eye of the beholder, and that talking about how much content it has is pointless. What's important is whether that content is something people want, not whether the content exists.

Excuse me, a good chunk of the "stories" were just activities we could normally do but with a sugar coating of texts and nostalgia for some I guess.
Except this time, it's not connected to our own story.
It's not high effort at all, beginning with the introduction with weird dialogues.

Let's not talk about the " mining challenge " when you basically go back and forth mining stuff and dropping it under a chrono, very high effort.
Or perhaps " how many ships can you kill on that locked loadout ", sorry but I can do that without the wall of text to read on my own ship.
The races could have been again in the open universe ( and I simply didn't enjoy it mind you )
The EVA stuff was ... interesting to say the least, as if Egosoft knew perfectly well we all enjoy that normally.
Finally, some battles were broken or overly difficult, despite the fact Egosoft weirdly branded it as a good introduction for new players.

Honestly, I found the Boron plot far more engaging instead of the whole "self contained" stories you hop left and right.
Kingdom End have a lot of interesting moments, which are all happening in the open universe, on a fully fledged DLC.


PS : you don't need to prove anything when Timelines received an awful lot of negative reviews for a X4 DLC, and it doesn't need to be review bombed because on how passionated the community is on that niche game.

So you don't like it = low effort. Got it.
ToA is low effort then.

[Nerwesta]

If you don't want to engage on my points layed out above, then you might aswell read again my sentence that prompted you to react :

It already happened with Timelines, the DLC felt a bit too cheap in my opinion, with plenty of very forgettable activities that could be anyway experienced organically throughout the open universe ...

Then again, the reviews speak for themselves.

[Agrefits]

As someone who clocked over 1300 hrs on the Game i see those DLC as a nice way to donate the Devs and the Studio keep on going. Seriously, i'd have to buy multiple AAA Titles to get somewhere near the amount of hrs i've put into the game That game is a masterclass Sandbox you won't find anywhere else, and keeps you going for ages. see the DLC as way to pay appreciation

Plus, what ppl tend to forget. The bulk of the devs work is distributed free in the means of a diplomacy update .. 7 years after release!

[Observe]

As someone who clocked over 1300 hrs on the Game i see those DLC as a nice way to donate the Devs and the Studio keep on going. Seriously, i'd have to buy multiple AAA Titles to get somewhere near the amount of hrs i've put into the game That game is a masterclass Sandbox you won't find anywhere else, and keeps you going for ages. see the DLC as way to pay appreciation

I agree. I don't mind paying the cost of a modest lunch, a few times a year to support the Chef.

[alt3rn1ty]

>> X4: Envoy Pack @ GOG (product page coming soon)

Any ETA on that one? Since that announcement, GOG published a few other new product pages, but so far no X4...

Its now up on GOG (took a lot longer than I expected, but at least it got there).
Wishlisted.

[vvvvvvvv]

It already happened with Timelines, the DLC felt a bit too cheap in my opinion, with plenty of very forgettable activities that could be anyway experienced organically throughout the open universe without an unimmersive do-this or do-that.
I'm sad I'm noticing a trend here.

It definitely wasn't cheap. Constructing and setting all those scenarios and environments takes time. Frankly, it could easily be comparable to avarice when it comes to amount of work.

Reviews are negative, because that's not what people wanted.

[jlehtone]

It already happened with Timelines, the DLC felt a bit too cheap in my opinion, with plenty of very forgettable activities ...

It definitely wasn't cheap. Constructing and setting all those scenarios and environments takes time.

There is the amount of effort that devs put in (A).
There is the € price that we pay (B).
There is the value/quality of content that we perceive (C).

I do agree that the A was not low in Timelines. Did Nerwesta feel the C to be low (particularly when compared to A and B)?

That game is a masterclass Sandbox you won't find anywhere else, and keeps you going for ages. see the DLC as way to pay appreciation

I agree. I don't mind paying the cost of a modest lunch, a few times a year to support the Chef.

Everybody does not share that viewpoint (as they have stated in this thread). Is the disagreement about semantics?

[Thomas2052]

"Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it."

Publius Syrus, 1st century BCE

Spoiler

Show

(From Civ IV, 2005 CE - I'm not that learned!)

[Crimsonraziel]

Hi guys,

just saying, when a new expansion of X4 is announced, I don't want to wishlist it, I want to buy it. Immediately. And when you are ready, you deliver. Whenever. I don't care.
Geez.

Cheers,
your X Fan,
Keeshah.

Steam/GOG has the last word on whether preorder is an option or not.

[Nerwesta]

It already happened with Timelines, the DLC felt a bit too cheap in my opinion, with plenty of very forgettable activities ...

It definitely wasn't cheap. Constructing and setting all those scenarios and environments takes time.

There is the amount of effort that devs put in (A).
There is the € price that we pay (B).
There is the value/quality of content that we perceive (C).

I do agree that the A was not low in Timelines. Did Nerwesta feel the C to be low (particularly when compared to A and B)?

That game is a masterclass Sandbox you won't find anywhere else, and keeps you going for ages. see the DLC as way to pay appreciation

I agree. I don't mind paying the cost of a modest lunch, a few times a year to support the Chef.

Everybody does not share that viewpoint (as they have stated in this thread). Is the disagreement about semantics?

That's exactly what I mean by the (C)
But also more or less what I mean with (A), my (C) being more important here since I'm fully controlling that point.

To add to that, I said some activities were very forgettable to me and layed out examples for that ignored by Raptor34 for some reasons.
I'm in no way dismissing the amount of work on others, moreso the amount of work crafting the whole station.
To my inner-self it would have been much more useful to me if we could get a similar layout on any important station, an HQ or any XL/L ship ( especially during plots - modders could technically expand from that )
The tech is there, I assume the hardest part is behind them.

Past the Timelines DLC, there is little point walking around the station with unknown crews.

PS : Interactables through the the open universe that teleport us to the relevant activities missions as flashbacks would be me my prefered way of conveying such thing, so we don't feel disconnected from the open universe, and have to click on dull " mission selection " which are a bit off-setting. ( Antigone is the perfect candidate for that )


But I think we are derailing a bit too much about a tidbit of a point I put at the end of my main message, which is a bit both interesting as we can debate on that, but sad to me since my very point about the Envoy is simply ignored :

viewtopic.php?p=5288679#p5288679

[NJPhoenix]

Already on my wish list, just waiting for release on gog.
Look Great!

[jlehtone]

"Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it."

Publius Syrus, 1st century BCE

Spoiler

Show

(From Civ IV, 2005 CE - I'm not that learned!)

Dialogue with the Captain of the Teladi Company Phoenix at the start of Xbtf (1999 CE) had very similar description for the value of "credit".

[Starmeadow]

Plus, what ppl tend to forget. The bulk of the devs work is distributed free in the means of a diplomacy update .. 7 years after release!

This I have already replied to earlier. A free update is by no means a bandaid for bad price to content ratio on the payed parts.

It is possible to argue that both Hyperion and Envoy is a more niche content.

So is every horse armour. By your logic you are defending every one of those as well.


My main point here is that I am worried about the direction it is going, and trying to warn about it. Things like this have gone bad before and could go bad again if nobody warns or critiques these practices and everyone supports them until they intensify. If there are some people that decide to blatantly ignore this fact then so be it. I have done what I could.
I, on my end, truly hope that Egosoft will proof my concerns wrong and will not fall like this. As it would be a shame if that were to happen another time and kill/intoxicate another community and studio.