Xenon Gone, Do They Respawn?

[PersonyPerson]

In any case, the central Xenon cluster is the only one that will never randomly die off to the AI.

If one wants to keep a Xenon presence in their game, they need to check the condition of the other Xenon clusters before wiping out the central one.

I certainly hope that isn't the one with the Yaki. Because Egosoft in their infinite wisdom painted a nice big target on that particular cluster. And the SPG one too but that one at least is locked behind terraforming instead of a main quest.

The central cluster includes the area with the Yaki station, yes. Savage Spur II to Matrix #101.

It takes a lot of meta knowledge to understand that this is indeed the central, most stable Xenon cluster.

If one does custom creative "AI only" saves during the day and leaves the PC on overnight on SETA, you will start to recognise these patterns. Putting up +30 relations with the Xenon and then you can start to see their orders and start to see what goes wrong over time.

In case of Scale Plate Green, I think the problem there is the Wharf's position relative to the gate and accelerator. It probably should be in the North west corner of the sector. Everywhere else though (including Scale Plate Green at times), the problems seems to be entirely because of the existing logic for SEs.

One dev thinks the Terran Intervention fleets are the biggest factor for Xenon deaths, but I just don't see that based on my observations.

[RPINerd]

I don't understand why people keep making threads of "I killed all the Xenon, how do I bring them back?"... like of course they're irrecoverably gone. You wiped them out.

I only wiped the yaki sectors via a budgeted start because I was hoping to be able to turn them into a real faction and RP their leader. I had no knowledge of the rest of the universe, it wasn't until long after that I learned that all the Xenon had been wiped.

Either way, the point still stands that it should not be possible in the first place to reach a point where Xen are permanently out of the game

[adeine]

Either way, the point still stands that it should not be possible in the first place to reach a point where Xen are permanently out of the game

It should be possible, but it should not be a foregone conclusion.

[PersonyPerson]

Either way, the point still stands that it should not be possible in the first place to reach a point where Xen are permanently out of the game

I agree that Xenon clusters should be a lot more robust economically before dying out, and it's incredibly unlucky that the other 5 (or less if you don't have all the DLCs) ship producing Xenon clusters died off for you in your save without at least 1 of them being functional. That doesn't typically happen.

But I don't agree that the Xenon should be a permanent fixture of one's save. You should be able to wipe them out and the option of using economic warfare (killing off a xenon cluster by wiping out all the SEs) against them should be viable for both the player and the NPC factions and should exist. My problem with the Xenon is that they destroy themselves rather than someone destroying them.

[jlehtone]

Exactly. It should be possible to totally wipe out any faction. That is what the "simulated economy" is -- one cannot build if one has no materials. The SCA and KHA that spawn from void are annoying, aren't they?

However, the "simulation" should be so "stable" that the genocide requires real, intentional effort. Otherwise we unexpectly end up in these dead ends, where our toys have broken.


The Xenon do have weaknesses. First is that they have no allies willing to rebuild for them. Second, they are spread in pockets around the galaxy, i.e. have to fight on multiple fronts and "sailing to other front" is through the enemy, not safe travel within own space. They lose many ships on those transits.

The Xenon economy is simple, but they still need SPP and SE and Wharf. Lose any of the three and the rest starve to death.

[MKL81]

So I wiped out the Yaki region in my current game to finally experience the home for pirates ending (underwhelming but that's not the point or this post)
It seems that while I was on that crusade, the other factions apparently wiped the xenon in all of their other regions without me.

Now I've completely pulled out of yaki space and while some build sites have popped up in 79b, no construction has occurred. I've scouted a few regions where there are still the odd defense station, and even one sector has a warf and shipyard, however nothing is being constructed because there are no traders/miners.

That is the issue with Xenon. They only have natural enemies everywhere so unlike other factions - they cannot go back, as nobody will deliver build materials for them for their stations and they cannot build their ships in other factions' shipyards and wharfs. This is why many players supervise Xenon pockets to some extent to prevent their extinction.

[RPINerd]

... You should be able to wipe them out ... My problem with the Xenon is that they destroy themselves rather than someone destroying them.

It should be possible to totally wipe out any faction.... However, the "simulation" should be so "stable" that the genocide requires real, intentional effort.

Okay I see y'alls point, I actually agree! It should absolutely be possible for the player - with intentional, concerted effort - to exterminate any faction from the universe. I've actually thought that since the games launch. But the Xenon in particular should definitely have a bit more resiliance and absolutely should NOT be able to just die off from attrition with all the other races.

I think something that would not solve the problem, but go a massive way towards alieviating things is to have an opposite of the trade stations resource drains for Xen Warfs/Shipyards:

Code: Select all

Every {X} hours in game:
    For each xen warf:
         Is production active and stocked?
         If any are, break, nothing to see here
    Else, for each valid warf:
         Set stock levels to 25% for all wares

The result here is that yes, the Xen can still be completely wiped, but if they have even a single functional warf, they can come back from the dead.

[Raptor34]

... You should be able to wipe them out ... My problem with the Xenon is that they destroy themselves rather than someone destroying them.

It should be possible to totally wipe out any faction.... However, the "simulation" should be so "stable" that the genocide requires real, intentional effort.

Okay I see y'alls point, I actually agree! It should absolutely be possible for the player - with intentional, concerted effort - to exterminate any faction from the universe. I've actually thought that since the games launch. But the Xenon in particular should definitely have a bit more resiliance and absolutely should NOT be able to just die off from attrition with all the other races.

I think something that would not solve the problem, but go a massive way towards alieviating things is to have an opposite of the trade stations resource drains for Xen Warfs/Shipyards:

Code: Select all

Every {X} hours in game:
    For each xen warf:
         Is production active and stocked?
         If any are, break, nothing to see here
    Else, for each valid warf:
         Set stock levels to 25% for all wares

The result here is that yes, the Xen can still be completely wiped, but if they have even a single functional warf, they can come back from the dead.

The easier way without cheating is to setup separate sets of local and universal miners/traders for the Xenon. The local ones would be whitelisted to only operate in their sector. Ignoring that one stupid cluster where the shipyard/wharf sector is empty and all the resources is in the neighboring sector. Then the universal ones do what they currently do.
Like I actually do like that factions sometimes, or like most of the times just send their traders through dangerous space. It's like blockade running. But you know, they shouldn't do that for every single one of them. Where are the cowards that only takes the safe route and consequently get things done because they aren't dead?

[PersonyPerson]

... You should be able to wipe them out ... My problem with the Xenon is that they destroy themselves rather than someone destroying them.

It should be possible to totally wipe out any faction.... However, the "simulation" should be so "stable" that the genocide requires real, intentional effort.

Okay I see y'alls point, I actually agree! It should absolutely be possible for the player - with intentional, concerted effort - to exterminate any faction from the universe. I've actually thought that since the games launch. But the Xenon in particular should definitely have a bit more resiliance and absolutely should NOT be able to just die off from attrition with all the other races.

I think something that would not solve the problem, but go a massive way towards alieviating things is to have an opposite of the trade stations resource drains for Xen Warfs/Shipyards:

Code: Select all

Every {X} hours in game:
    For each xen warf:
         Is production active and stocked?
         If any are, break, nothing to see here
    Else, for each valid warf:
         Set stock levels to 25% for all wares

The result here is that yes, the Xen can still be completely wiped, but if they have even a single functional warf, they can come back from the dead.

The easier way without cheating is to setup separate sets of local and universal miners/traders for the Xenon. The local ones would be whitelisted to only operate in their sector. Ignoring that one stupid cluster where the shipyard/wharf sector is empty and all the resources is in the neighboring sector. Then the universal ones do what they currently do.
Like I actually do like that factions sometimes, or like most of the times just send their traders through dangerous space. It's like blockade running. But you know, they shouldn't do that for every single one of them. Where are the cowards that only takes the safe route and consequently get things done because they aren't dead?

These local jobs already exist. The problem is, is that miners do not permanently stick to those jobs, and even if they are completely forced to operate in only one sector, there's still some logic in the code that I can't find that will provoke them into wondering off to mine in dangerous locations anyway and ignore the sector limits.

A better solution would be to give the Shipyard and the Wharf mining subordinate and then through that force sector limits. But I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough in XML to know how to write that without spending hours tearing my hair out and doing this ->

I've only experienced playing around with the jobs.xml file.

The SEs wondering across the network to help bail out struggling clusters is not the main reason they die out. In fact that's the only current way of how they get revived.

[Raptor34]

These local jobs already exist. The problem is, is that miners do not permanently stick to those jobs, and even if they are completely forced to operate in only one sector, there's still some logic in the code that I can't find that will provoke them into wondering off to mine in dangerous locations anyway and ignore the sector limits.

A better solution would be to give the Shipyard and the Wharf mining subordinate and then through that force sector limits. But I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough in XML to know how to write that without spending hours tearing my hair out and doing this ->

I've only experienced playing around with the jobs.xml file.

The SEs wondering across the network to help bail out struggling clusters is not the main reason they die out. In fact that's the only current way of how they get revived.

None of that is insurmountable for the devs at least. Who knows why they do not stick to them. I thought Xenon space is supposed to be resource rich... Maybe someone needs to make a bug report Like how that VIG bug was discovered.
And mining subordinates... yeah, that's a better solution. Since my idea is basically that anyway, though it does have the advantage that it can service either the shipyard or wharf instead of being tied to one of them.

[jlehtone]

A better solution would be to give the Shipyard and the Wharf mining subordinate and then through that force sector limits.

Miner and Energy subordinates. Xenon make nothing from mere Ore and Silicon; the Ecells are vital (and so are XEN SPP).

The other faction Yards seem to have subordinate or two and did some update add Miners to regular race Stations?

Please repeat for XEN, or if that has already been done, then add some more.

[adeine]

I still think a good lore based way to prevent XEN starvation by miner suicide would be to make it so any completed Xenon station module can spawn mass traffic mining drones. Slow, inefficient, but capable of mining within (only) the sector the station is located in. This way wharves/shipyards are guaranteed to be able to trickle build mining ships and unfinished stations in core sectors can slowly be constructed if the area is clear of hostiles without just cheating in resources out of nowhere.

And a dedicated faction/player can still blockade the area and destroy the drones.

[Raptor34]

I still think a good lore based way to prevent XEN starvation by miner suicide would be to make it so any completed Xenon station module can spawn mass traffic mining drones. Slow, inefficient, but capable of mining within (only) the sector the station is located in. This way wharves/shipyards are guaranteed to be able to trickle build mining ships and unfinished stations in core sectors can slowly be constructed if the area is clear of hostiles without just cheating in resources out of nowhere.

And a dedicated faction/player can still blockade the area and destroy the drones.

They don't have to spawn them. Just build them like normal drones. It is a good idea, and frankly would work for more than just the Xenon.
Like why not let me build a mining station, add a couple defense platforms with mining lasers and then mine. The drones go out and collect and they have their own mini mining lasers too. Maybe have a mining missile to break up asteroids further away. Or something along those lines.
It probably doesn't need too much model work. Like how adding an admin station gives you the ability to have position defense, maybe adding a defense platform with mining lasers and missile turrets unlocks the ability to mine to a certain radius. Then add mining drones to the station's complement.

[PersonyPerson]

These local jobs already exist. The problem is, is that miners do not permanently stick to those jobs, and even if they are completely forced to operate in only one sector, there's still some logic in the code that I can't find that will provoke them into wondering off to mine in dangerous locations anyway and ignore the sector limits.

A better solution would be to give the Shipyard and the Wharf mining subordinate and then through that force sector limits. But I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough in XML to know how to write that without spending hours tearing my hair out and doing this ->

I've only experienced playing around with the jobs.xml file.

The SEs wondering across the network to help bail out struggling clusters is not the main reason they die out. In fact that's the only current way of how they get revived.

Maybe someone needs to make a bug report

I did the literal moment of when this started in 7.10 Beta 4. It was deemed to be a "balancing issue" and not a bug, which I don't agree with because the Xenon destroy themselves.

I don't want to question the devs too much, because there could be many variables and barriers that they know upon which we don't and I'm not yet qualified to investigate the matter further, so I've mostly left it be besides a few comments every now and then mentioning my... disapproval... of the current state of Xenon self-destruction.

A better solution would be to give the Shipyard and the Wharf mining subordinate and then through that force sector limits.

Miner and Energy subordinates. Xenon make nothing from mere Ore and Silicon; the Ecells are vital (and so are XEN SPP).

The other faction Yards seem to have subordinate or two and did some update add Miners to regular race Stations?

Please repeat for XEN, or if that has already been done, then add some more.

Their issue stems from a lack of Ore and Silicon though, so adding a trading subordinate isn't going to change anything substantial. Never seen the Xenon self-destruct because of a lack of Energy Cells, nor have I seen SEs wonder into dangerous territory to collect Energy cells from a different cluster. The existing logic works fine in that regard imo.

I still think a good lore based way to prevent XEN starvation by miner suicide would be to make it so any completed Xenon station module can spawn mass traffic mining drones. Slow, inefficient, but capable of mining within (only) the sector the station is located in. This way wharves/shipyards are guaranteed to be able to trickle build mining ships and unfinished stations in core sectors can slowly be constructed if the area is clear of hostiles without just cheating in resources out of nowhere.

And a dedicated faction/player can still blockade the area and destroy the drones.

Existing mining drones do not have weapons, they only collect what larger miners have destroyed, so they'd have to design an entirely new one for that to work. XS sized craft like drones also don't spawn OOS, so the game would have to recognise somewhere that all these drones exist, providing resources to the Shipyards/Wharfs. And what happens if the Xenon decide to build a new Wharf in a sector without resources? The drones would then be useless.

I personally don't think that's a viable solution.

[jlehtone]

Their issue stems from a lack of Ore and Silicon though, so adding a trading subordinate isn't going to change anything substantial. Never seen the Xenon self-destruct because of a lack of Energy Cells, nor have I seen SEs wonder into dangerous territory to collect Energy cells from a different cluster. The existing logic works fine in that regard imo.

(For plot reasons) XEN lost all stations in Savage Spur 1. They did place plots to rebuild.
Both Miner and Energy SE managed to migrate from Scale Plate Green to Savage Spur 1.
The Miners did fill each plot with Ore and Silicon. The Energy haulers simply sat idle, with nothing to do.
Result, XEN has plots, but no stations in Savage Spur 1.

If XEN have functional SPP and both Miner and Energy SE, then they can build a Wharf (and other stations) and feed it.
If XEN have Wharf with resources, then they can build ships but no stations, no SPP.

If there are both free and Wharf-bound energy traders, then the free traders can safely prioritize new station plots without endangering the ship production. You are right though that this is more critical with the Miners than energy.

[adeine]

I still think a good lore based way to prevent XEN starvation by miner suicide would be to make it so any completed Xenon station module can spawn mass traffic mining drones. Slow, inefficient, but capable of mining within (only) the sector the station is located in. This way wharves/shipyards are guaranteed to be able to trickle build mining ships and unfinished stations in core sectors can slowly be constructed if the area is clear of hostiles without just cheating in resources out of nowhere.

And a dedicated faction/player can still blockade the area and destroy the drones.

Existing mining drones do not have weapons, they only collect what larger miners have destroyed, so they'd have to design an entirely new one for that to work. XS sized craft like drones also don't spawn OOS, so the game would have to recognise somewhere that all these drones exist, providing resources to the Shipyards/Wharfs. And what happens if the Xenon decide to build a new Wharf in a sector without resources? The drones would then be useless.

I personally don't think that's a viable solution.

I don't think it is beyond Egosoft to add a mining laser to a drone type ship.

As for your second point, this kind of system is not to facilitate Xenon expansion, but to prevent pockets from completely dying out through starvation. Hence it only benefitting core sectors with sufficient resources is a plus.

I think in addition to giving Xenon L mining ships and transports, as well as fixing defence modules, something like this would go a long way to improve the odds of Xenon survival.

[kooked]

Biggest threat to Xenon is how suicidal their mining ships are, they will always and I say always engage any target until death. Like if they are on a mission to carry ore to the other side of the universe and they get scratched by an Asgard during the travel, they'll just engage, like judgement is nowhere to be found in their "Use judgement" engage setting. I wonder why is that, all my traders are pretty much escaping instead.

So this, plus the fact that they often roam to bring resources over long distances, and soon or later Xenon will simply run out of mining ship and that part of the game is completely broken, factions will take over rapidly and they will be gone forever or at best idle.

One simple fix would be to spawn out of thin air some Xenon mining ships, like sometimes the scouts are spawned in player presence, and maybe let them escape and go back delivering/mining/rebuilding for Xenon, so that they'll always have a chance to spawn back.

[CBJ]

Your "simple fix" doesn't address this point:

You should be able to wipe them out and the option of using economic warfare (killing off a xenon cluster by wiping out all the SEs) against them should be viable for both the player and the NPC factions and should exist.

It's very hard for the game to know whether they were wiped out intentionally or not, and without that, it's impossible to solve this without annoying one group of players or another.

[kooked]

Your "simple fix" doesn't address this point:

You should be able to wipe them out and the option of using economic warfare (killing off a xenon cluster by wiping out all the SEs) against them should be viable for both the player and the NPC factions and should exist.

It's very hard for the game to know whether they were wiped out intentionally or not, and without that, it's impossible to solve this without annoying one group of players or another.

They don't need to be 100% wiped out. They can still have a chance to build back and re-emerge from annihilation if given enough time and support. The players can just patrol the "home" Xenon sectors, or the NPCs can do a better job patrolling their sectors when new Xenons appear, or new stations get built. For example by targeting new enemy stations being built directly, rather then relying on the "patrolling" mechanism to randomly stumbling into one. The player can then wipe out any Xenon home sector from NPCs forces, and allow Xenon to rebuild, if they want them back.

[vvvvvvvv]

Your "simple fix" doesn't address this point:

You should be able to wipe them out and the option of using economic warfare (killing off a xenon cluster by wiping out all the SEs) against them should be viable for both the player and the NPC factions and should exist.

It's very hard for the game to know whether they were wiped out intentionally or not, and without that, it's impossible to solve this without annoying one group of players or another.

Given that diplomacy is in the works it would be a good opportunity to have a "support xenon" project. Which would bring them back or ship materials to one of the zombie mode build sites. Because xenon die when:
* They lose their solar plants
* They lose all their miners/energy haulers.

Which can happen without player involvement.

Also take a look at this mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/fil ... 3392664581