What causes this weird "nodding" behaviour with Destroyers?

[Scoob]

Hey all,

This is a fairly long-standing issue, and I thought it'd been improved a lot. However, once again, I'm seeing destroyers of mine be totally ineffective because of it. So, what happens...

A destroyer of mine is ordered to attack an enemy capital ship - classic Behemoth vs. Xenon K would be a solid example. It approaches, but then stops just outside of engagement range. It then pitches up, pitches down, and moves forwards a bit. Eventually, after several minutes of this behaviour, it DOES actually get in to weapons range. It tries to shoot with both its turrets and main battery BUT constantly misses due to the on-going nodding behaviour.

Picture this, the ship is in range of the enemy and is trying to fire on it, but this nodding behaviour can be seen to repeatedly throw off the turret aim - plasma shots wildly missing the target, as do the shots from the main battery. Is it over pitching and trying to correct, is there too much momentum and it cannot compensate properly? Is the target's own movement confusing it? Is it constantly manoeuvring based on where the target was moments earlier? Regardless, this solidly breaks Capital vs. Capital engagements when it occurs. Seeing a single K readily defeat an overwhelming opposing force, because said force sits there nodding constantly is rather infuriating.

I just don't get it. I see other ships engage just fine, but once a ship has as special moment like this, it seems to continue doing so. Attack order might as well be cancelled, or just take direct control if possible.

This issues seemed to be most prevalent if the target was a distance above or below the player ship. However, I'm also seeing it when they're both on the same plane. I cannot figure out what the ship thinks it's trying to do. Just face the target and SHOOT!

Needless to say, this totally and utterly throws off ANY sort of balance when it happens. A couple of Behemoths actually can potentially do quite well vs. a K these days. However, if they sit there nodding away, they just die.

Edit: this is crazy, this particular Xenon K is proving near untouchable. My Destroyers can't touch it, and even my very nimble Hyperion barely gets a shot in.

Edit 2: It must be some failure of the Destroyer trying to compensate for the K's movements. I took out the K's engines, and now all the ships are engaging it just fine. I can't quite see why they struggle to simply face the target properly. They get in range just fine, despite the target's movements, but are then unable to face it. You'd think face target, move forwards would be able as simple as movement got.

[j.harshaw]

They currently have no way of knowing when they get to within weapons range (technical limitation). And they try to approach cautiously, so on initial approach, they periodically stop to check. The movement they plot to begin with does go to what should be within weapons range of the target at the moment the movement is plotted, but situations in combat (movement of enemy ships, movement of allied ships, stuff getting destroyed) change.

Have experimented with them just travel moding to what was their ideal position and try to get there as quickly as possible, but there's too much potential for error so didn't deploy that solution. Solution in 7.60's a compromise. Iterative process, as always.

[Raptor34]

They currently have no way of knowing when they get to within weapons range (technical limitation). And they try to approach cautiously, so on initial approach, they periodically stop to check. The movement they plot to begin with does go to what should be within weapons range of the target at the moment the movement is plotted, but situations in combat (movement of enemy ships, movement of allied ships, stuff getting destroyed) change.

Have experimented with them just travel moding to what was their ideal position and try to get there as quickly as possible, but there's too much potential for error so didn't deploy that solution. Solution in 7.60's a compromise. Iterative process, as always.

Might be time to reconsider the main battery as the primary weapon then.
I don't know what aesthetics of space combat you're looking at currently, but perhaps moving to a brawling model where you can just have them move into range and fire at each other without worrying about needing to point the nose would be better.
Basically you'll probably need to buff up L turrets more, and change the main battery to something that deals more burst and less sustained damage.

Like... I imagine that destroyers would approach each other, fire their main battery which would deal way more damage, but have like a 20-30 sec cooldown, and then depending on race, either peel off or fly right past them while their turrets blaze away. Then turn around and give it another go.
Not all of them of course, particularly agile and well-shielded destroyers like the Syn could stay the same, but just park there and turn it's main guns and tank and shoot.
In such a scenario, you'll probably buff up shields some perhaps, which makes fighters sniping shields even more important perhaps.

[A5PECT]

They currently have no way of knowing when they get to within weapons range (technical limitation). And they try to approach cautiously, so on initial approach, they periodically stop to check. The movement they plot to begin with does go to what should be within weapons range of the target at the moment the movement is plotted, but situations in combat (movement of enemy ships, movement of allied ships, stuff getting destroyed) change.

Have experimented with them just travel moding to what was their ideal position and try to get there as quickly as possible, but there's too much potential for error so didn't deploy that solution. Solution in 7.60's a compromise. Iterative process, as always.

IMO, once a large ship with main guns begins attacking, it should stop moving and focus on using its main guns until it's no longer able to (my target destroyed/my target leaves main gun range/my current attack order is removed). With the way a majority of destroyers are currently designed, even "minor" repositioning attempts cause too much disruption to the ships' primary function in critical situations.

[Scoob]

They currently have no way of knowing when they get to within weapons range (technical limitation). And they try to approach cautiously, so on initial approach, they periodically stop to check. The movement they plot to begin with does go to what should be within weapons range of the target at the moment the movement is plotted, but situations in combat (movement of enemy ships, movement of allied ships, stuff getting destroyed) change.

Have experimented with them just travel moding to what was their ideal position and try to get there as quickly as possible, but there's too much potential for error so didn't deploy that solution. Solution in 7.60's a compromise. Iterative process, as always.

Thanks for the reply. I still don't understand the drastic pitch up / pitch down manoeuvre though. I mean, the ship is in range as it's landed some hits - is it aware it's hitting the target? - yet it seems to want to do this weird pitch thing. It's already in range (though that technical limitation you mention is a surprise) and it's already facing the target.

So, to be clear, my Destroyer(s) are moving into weapons range - both L-Class Turret (Plasma) and Main Battery - fairly well for the most part. They might stop a little short, but they then close the distance. However, it's this wild Pitch Up / Pitch down thing they do that throws things off. Often, from observing recent fights, they don't move between those pitch manoeuvres. They are where they need to be to effective engage the target for a good number of shots (assuming target is moving) but they don't do that. Whatever positioning adjustment that wild pitch is supposed to achieve is unnecessary.

Observation: My 1.3 Star Destroyer Captain is having a far harder time than my 3.3 star Hyperion Captain.

Thought: if a Destroyer is "cautiously" approaching a target - which is good - starts taking fire from that target, isn't the best course for it to NOT be so cautious at that point? Vs. a moving target of course. I mean, I see my Destroyer approaching taking hits but then still trying to do something manoeuvre-wise with that extreme Pitching thing.

I get there's likely a lot more to this under the hood, but all I can do is report what I see.

[Scoob]

I do like Main Battery weapons however, ships don't always seem to use them well. During 7.6 testing, I thought main batteries were working as well as they ever had. I only really tested with Behemoths (captured from SCA) though.

The thing is, sometimes Turret-only Destroyers - like the Xenon K - run literal rings around Destroyers with main batteries, due to those batteries not being pointed at the target, even when in range.

In this most recent encounter, the key problem is that aggressive pitching up and down manoeuvre my ships are doing. It totally prevents any aiming by main battery or turrets. They got in range ok (for the most part), all they had to do was face the target and shoot. That's it. This pitch up, pitch down, don't move thing is.... just plain weird.

Taking control of the ship(s) myself while tinkering with this, ALL I had to do was point at the target K and shoot. I didn't need to move closer, turn excessively to aim at the target. I just adjusted pitch slightly and pulled the trigger. This got the main battery on target, and my turret's aim no longer thrown off by wild pitch movements.

[j.harshaw]

is it aware it's hitting the target?

I missed this detail. I did add awareness of this fairly recently, can't remember when exactly. Only thing I can think of is if the thing it shot at isn't the target the pilot is maneuvering against, but you also said that's the thing the ship is approaching so that shouldn't be the case. If you have a save, I'll see if I can sneak in a moment in between things to take a detailed look at what's going on.

[Scoob]

I missed this detail. I did add awareness of this fairly recently, can't remember when exactly. Only thing I can think of is if the thing it shot at isn't the target the pilot is maneuvering against, but you also said that's the thing the ship is approaching so that shouldn't be the case. If you have a save, I'll see if I can sneak in a moment in between things to take a detailed look at what's going on.

Thanks for the offer, much appreciated. My current game uses a few mods, but I'll see if I can quickly re-create it in my v7.6 Beta test game. I have experienced it there, but didn't think to report it at the time.

[vvvvvvvv]

IMO, once a large ship with main guns begins attacking, it should stop moving and focus on using its main guns until it's no longer able to

I'd say it should continue moving to maintain specific distance. At the same time it should keep main gun at target, continue firing as long as the shot would hit the target and should strafe to maintain spacing.

[Scoob]

I'd say it should continue moving to maintain specific distance. At the same time it should keep main gun at target, continue firing as long as the shot would hit the target and should strafe to maintain spacing.

Yeah. Unless the target has moved drastically, increments of movement while firing work best. It's when ships get confused, stop firing while still taking fire that are a problem. I've seen enemies travel drive away because my ship is too busy doing some pointless manoeuvre when all it need to do is face the enemy and shoot - perhaps while moving forwards to extend the firing window if the target is moving away.

Once a ship is in-range and has a viable firing solution it should FIRE, not turn away (pitch) as it does. The "nodding" issue is the thing I notice the most, but ships can also be seen to yaw away from a target for no apparently reason. I can see that ships sometime appear a little confused when they get too close to a target. In such cases, going full reverse / strafing is almost always a FAR better option than turning away from the target. I see my ships present their rear to a target (some sort of insult? lol) and lose their engines and all ability to manoeuvre. They should have just stuck it out and kept shooting. I've seen fight go the ENTIRELY opposite way due to this.

No doubt this is all quite complex stuff, what we see going on is likely a whole lot less simple when turned into pure mathematics.

Note: one thing I'd like to point out is there can be such contrast in how things play out. During the Beta, I witnessed two Behemoth E's of mine - Bombard Subordinates to a Carrier - sitting at the perfect distance from a moving Xenon K target. They were firing, hitting the target with their main battery as well as the odd Turret Plasma shot. All the time they were strafing up/down, left/right avoiding some of the incoming fire. It looked AMAZING. Then, another time, they seem entirely incapable of just facing a target that's in weapons range, with their spurious "nodding" movement totally throwing off any shots.

Trying to identify which situations appear to yield the weird behaviours is likely important. However, in this most recent situation, I cannot see what particular thing might have caused the "nodding" behaviour. I did wonder if the enemy ship, perhaps being a little faster, was constantly right at the edge of the "engage" range. It was certainly in-range, but I don't know what sort of thresholds are involved here. I.e. when to stop firing and start moving, though I'd suggest DO BOTH if there's any doubt.

[xrogaan]

What's annoying me somewhat is that, apparently, the L and XL ships are driven by pilots under ADHD. That is, those ships purpose is supposed to destroy big targets. Thus, they travel with an escort to handle the small pests that may be coming in. However, in practice, the big Asgard (and its escort of L ships) will try to target and kill any S ship that comes near it (be it defense drones or fighters). So the Asgard will go to a full stop and pivot in place so its main battery face the small ship whose existence has been deemed offensive... And that will last hours. What's worst, is that near the gate were hostiles stations that the Asgard totally ignored... The ship was a couple kilometers away from being able to bombard those stations, but they got ignored. Its escort of L ships eventually started to target those stations, but the Asgard simply chose to leave the system once the small ships were gone... Only to die a jump later, without escort, assaulted by many S, M an L ships that were patrolling the next sector... Again while trying to kill fighter sized ships.

It would be great if the bigger ships tried not to target smaller ships with their main battery. They will never manage to hit them that way anyhow.

[Raptor34]

What's annoying me somewhat is that, apparently, the L and XL ships are driven by pilots under ADHD. That is, those ships purpose is supposed to destroy big targets. Thus, they travel with an escort to handle the small pests that may be coming in. However, in practice, the big Asgard (and its escort of L ships) will try to target and kill any S ship that comes near it (be it defense drones or fighters). So the Asgard will go to a full stop and pivot in place so its main battery face the small ship whose existence has been deemed offensive... And that will last hours. What's worst, is that near the gate were hostiles stations that the Asgard totally ignored... The ship was a couple kilometers away from being able to bombard those stations, but they got ignored. Its escort of L ships eventually started to target those stations, but the Asgard simply chose to leave the system once the small ships were gone... Only to die a jump later, without escort, assaulted by many S, M an L ships that were patrolling the next sector... Again while trying to kill fighter sized ships.

It would be great if the bigger ships tried not to target smaller ships with their main battery. They will never manage to hit them that way anyhow.

Put them on Bombard then.

[xrogaan]

What's annoying me somewhat is that, apparently, the L and XL ships are driven by pilots under ADHD. That is, those ships purpose is supposed to destroy big targets. Thus, they travel with an escort to handle the small pests that may be coming in. However, in practice, the big Asgard (and its escort of L ships) will try to target and kill any S ship that comes near it (be it defense drones or fighters). So the Asgard will go to a full stop and pivot in place so its main battery face the small ship whose existence has been deemed offensive... And that will last hours. What's worst, is that near the gate were hostiles stations that the Asgard totally ignored... The ship was a couple kilometers away from being able to bombard those stations, but they got ignored. Its escort of L ships eventually started to target those stations, but the Asgard simply chose to leave the system once the small ships were gone... Only to die a jump later, without escort, assaulted by many S, M an L ships that were patrolling the next sector... Again while trying to kill fighter sized ships.

It would be great if the bigger ships tried not to target smaller ships with their main battery. They will never manage to hit them that way anyhow.

Put them on Bombard then.

I should have precised that this the NPC faction behavior. The Asgard is the lead ship, the L escort are presumably put on attack.

[Raptor34]

What's annoying me somewhat is that, apparently, the L and XL ships are driven by pilots under ADHD. That is, those ships purpose is supposed to destroy big targets. Thus, they travel with an escort to handle the small pests that may be coming in. However, in practice, the big Asgard (and its escort of L ships) will try to target and kill any S ship that comes near it (be it defense drones or fighters). So the Asgard will go to a full stop and pivot in place so its main battery face the small ship whose existence has been deemed offensive... And that will last hours. What's worst, is that near the gate were hostiles stations that the Asgard totally ignored... The ship was a couple kilometers away from being able to bombard those stations, but they got ignored. Its escort of L ships eventually started to target those stations, but the Asgard simply chose to leave the system once the small ships were gone... Only to die a jump later, without escort, assaulted by many S, M an L ships that were patrolling the next sector... Again while trying to kill fighter sized ships.

It would be great if the bigger ships tried not to target smaller ships with their main battery. They will never manage to hit them that way anyhow.

Put them on Bombard then.

I should have precised that this the NPC faction behavior. The Asgard is the lead ship, the L escort are presumably put on attack.

Tbf AI fleets should be built better too. Then again having the econ to build carriers might be an issue.
Maybe each faction actually do need a light carrier...

Well, either that or give us targeting priorities. For starters a simple one like you set them on protect position, then you select if they are anti S/M, L/XL or everything. Thinking about it, wouldn't reducing the number of targets improve game performance too?

[Jonzac]

I was wondering if the bobbing behavior was a conflict of defensive and offensive behavior in conflict. I have see destroyers rapidly move to avoid any fire they receive..regardless of what ship is firing. For example the S-ships at a destroyer and the destroyer is constantly trying to bring its main guns to bear on this new target....and will ignore the K it was firing at.

So I think that the "I just got shot" script is overriding the "I need to shoot THAT ship" script

[Raptor34]

I was wondering if the bobbing behavior was a conflict of defensive and offensive behavior in conflict. I have see destroyers rapidly move to avoid any fire they receive..regardless of what ship is firing. For example the S-ships at a destroyer and the destroyer is constantly trying to bring its main guns to bear on this new target....and will ignore the K it was firing at.

So I think that the "I just got shot" script is overriding the "I need to shoot THAT ship" script

Shouldn't setting response to attack to ignore deal with that?

[A5PECT]

I was wondering if the bobbing behavior was a conflict of defensive and offensive behavior in conflict. I have see destroyers rapidly move to avoid any fire they receive..regardless of what ship is firing. For example the S-ships at a destroyer and the destroyer is constantly trying to bring its main guns to bear on this new target....and will ignore the K it was firing at.

So I think that the "I just got shot" script is overriding the "I need to shoot THAT ship" script

I don't think that's it, as I frequently observe capital ships nodding off when nothing else was attacking them (even their target). I ran an extensive capital ship vs. capital ships test during one the previous betas, and attackers would consistently stop firing despite being within main gun range and facing the target, while the target was busy attacking something else.