wtf is this??? why this game traders is so strange?

[Zagreus86]

Why are auto traders still so stupid after 20 years of development? Why does the L trader transfer 16 (16 ******) units of goods between its stations at full production capacity and only 10% in the purchased station? Are you insinuatingly making them imbeciles?

The problem of "strange" transportation by autotraders is solved by the construction of intermediate hubs of goods (trade stations of primary and intermediate goods). And transfer autotraders to station traders... 100% time - full cargo

[Alan Phipps]

We've no idea as we don't know how you are setting them up nor the economy in play. Most players eventually seem to make things work OK with a bit of patience and trial-and-error.

[flywlyx]

We've no idea as we don't know how you are setting them up nor the economy in play. Most players eventually seem to make things work OK with a bit of patience and trial-and-error.

Encountering L traders selling 5 advanced electronics is not an uncommon occurrence.
Without mods, this is an inevitable situation.
I'm puzzled as to why basic functions like minimum cargo percentage are still absent after five years, but the reality speaks for itself.

[Imperial Good]

Why does the L trader transfer 16 (16 ******) units of goods between its stations at full production capacity and only 10% in the purchased station?

This is usually caused by either the selling station or buying station only being able to trade 16 units. The auto trade logic will find the nearest/first trade offer that meets the sell/buy price and take that, even if it is for only 16 units when a little further away is a station wanting thousands.

To prevent this happening use auto buy price and manually set the sell price to something reasonable, such as 25% to 40% from minimum. This should assure significant demand before the station becomes an acceptable trade target to allow for high usage of L traders. Using this is how I keep my L traders mostly hauling full loads around between my stations. Since NPC stations are usually quite small, L traders might not be able to haul to them efficiently as an applicable price offer might occur for only a few units of a ware.

Although more rare, stations that have a ware as an intermediate can end up limiting L trader effectiveness due to automatic sell limits. Make sure the station is capable of generating sufficient sell offers to fill a L trader, since if it only offers 16 units for sale the L trader is forced to trade those 16 units as it cannot make a bigger trade involving that ware.

[PV_]

I hope one day station traders will learn to drop off "dead weight" wares to actually start use their cargo space for something useful and not just wandering around with failed trade behavior.

[flywlyx]

To prevent this happening use auto buy price and manually set the sell price to something reasonable, such as 25% to 40% from minimum. This should assure significant demand before the station becomes an acceptable trade target to allow for high usage of L traders. Using this is how I keep my L traders mostly hauling full loads around between my stations. Since NPC stations are usually quite small, L traders might not be able to haul to them efficiently as an applicable price offer might occur for only a few units of a ware.

Consequently, it's practically impossible to buy high-demand goods from NPCs and sell low-demand goods to them. This is largely due to NPC factories being predominantly small-sized, resulting in each production cycle only yielding/consuming a limited quantity of goods.
This solution is far from being reasonable.

I hope one day station traders will learn to drop off "dead weight" wares to actually start use their cargo space for something useful and not just wandering around with failed trade behavior.

I've heard they're planning to consolidate some mods, and I hope they can do it sooner rather than later.
After five years, the current state of X4 truly gives the impression that the developers have never actually played their own game.

[PV_]

I've heard they're planning to consolidate some mods, and I hope they can do it sooner rather than later.
After five years, the current state of X4 truly gives the impression that the developers have never actually played their own game.

I heard something similar, like devs are going to integrate mechanism which allows some mods without marking save file as modified. Rumors run wild
While it indeed looks like most devs only dive in the game for a very limited time and don't face most of inconsistencies, but I do observe bug reports sometimes and... There is bug with ~1000 tracking number which devs not yet found time to properly investigate. And there is ~1700 number for one of most recent tracked bugs. I don't know if its mess of code or small developers team or something else. But I wouldn't expect blasting progress any time soon.

[flywlyx]

I heard something similar, like devs are going to integrate mechanism which allows some mods without marking save file as modified. Rumors run wild
While it indeed looks like most devs only dive in the game for a very limited time and don't face most of inconsistencies, but I do observe bug reports sometimes and... There is bug with ~1000 tracking number which devs not yet found time to properly investigate. And there is ~1700 number for one of most recent tracked bugs. I don't know if its mess of code or small developers team or something else. But I wouldn't expect blasting progress any time soon.

Indeed, that's why I'm quite optimistic about integrating mods into games.
Given that they're now utilizing new physics and visual engines, it's likely that their programmers are inundated with bug reports.

[blackphoenixx]

Encountering L traders selling 5 advanced electronics is not an uncommon occurrence.
Without mods, this is an inevitable situation.
I'm puzzled as to why basic functions like minimum cargo percentage are still absent after five years, but the reality speaks for itself.

Inevitable? Have you tried not assigning oversized traders to wares that don't need that much cargo? Your traders just do what you tell them to do, no matter how inefficient it is.
Not that i'm against QoL improvements, but i think that's a little too much handholding for my taste.

Another issue is that it would remove the "reward" from optimizing your economy (which is one of the parts of the game i rather enjoy) if the game just does it for you no matter what.
Pick the right ship for the job if you want maximum efficiency, don't just expect the game to do all the work for you.

[GCU Grey Area]

To prevent this happening use auto buy price and manually set the sell price to something reasonable, such as 25% to 40% from minimum. This should assure significant demand before the station becomes an acceptable trade target to allow for high usage of L traders. Using this is how I keep my L traders mostly hauling full loads around between my stations. Since NPC stations are usually quite small, L traders might not be able to haul to them efficiently as an applicable price offer might occur for only a few units of a ware.

Consequently, it's practically impossible to buy high-demand goods from NPCs and sell low-demand goods to them. This is largely due to NPC factories being predominantly small-sized, resulting in each production cycle only yielding/consuming a limited quantity of goods.
This solution is far from being reasonable.

Whether you think it's reasonable or not, it's an effective solution. I run my stations in a similar manner. Here's a recent transaction log for my HQ, a station which makes pretty much everything: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7vfbe08l ... ujlvk&dl=0
You simply don't get a transaction log like that unless the station's trade fleet is routinely hauling a decent amount of cargo. There's a handful of 5 digit trades (mostly to NPC build storage), however the rest are all full or nearly full loads.

As for this approach making it difficult to buy high demand goods, why would I want to? That's precisely the stuff I want my freighters to sell to NPC stations. Conversely, why should I even bother trying to break into a market which NPC production has already saturated, resulting in low demand? Much better for my stations & their freighters to focus on making & selling wares for which there's greater demand.

[flywlyx]

Inevitable? Have you tried not assigning oversized traders to wares that don't need that much cargo? Your traders just do what you tell them to do, no matter how inefficient it is.
Not that i'm against QoL improvements, but i think that's a little too much handholding for my taste.

Are you proposing the establishment of a trade station for every ware you plan to produce?
And why do you consider the minimum cargo percentage as handholding?

Whether you think it's reasonable or not, it's an effective solution. I run my stations in a similar manner. Here's a recent transaction log for my HQ, a station which makes pretty much everything: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7vfbe08l ... ujlvk&dl=0
You simply don't get a transaction log like that unless the station's trade fleet is routinely hauling a decent amount of cargo. There's a handful of 5 digit trades (mostly to NPC build storage), however the rest are all full or nearly full loads.

As for this approach making it difficult to buy high demand goods, why would I want to? That's precisely the stuff I want my freighters to sell to NPC stations.

You're essentially outlining an end-game solution for an early-game issue.
This problem primarily affects players who prioritize the efficiency of their L traders and require high-demand goods to meet their production needs.
If players could produce everything and outfit their stations with a large number of L traders, this wouldn't be much of an issue.Who would be concerned if an L trader isn't fulfilling its duties when they could easily construct another 10?

Conversely, why should I even bother trying to break into a market which NPC production has already saturated, resulting in low demand? Much better for my stations & their freighters to focus on making & selling wares for which there's greater demand.

The only method to halt NPC factories and monopolize the market without resorting to the destruction of NPC stations is by flooding the market with goods priced at minimum rates.

[GCU Grey Area]

You're essentially outlining an end-game solution for an early-game issue.

Nope, it's a solution I use throughout each game. As soon as my very first production module is active I adjust it's prices to ensure that what it makes & the resources it requires can be delivered in bulk.

This problem primarily affects players who prioritize the efficiency of their L traders and require high-demand goods to meet their production needs.

High demand resources are only going to be available in low quantities. Hardly the freighter's fault if it's transporting low quantities because that's all that it could buy. In such circumstances I build my own production facilities to make those resources, rather than relying on NPC sources which are already overstretched, expensive & unreliable.

If players could produce everything and outfit their stations with a large number of L traders, this wouldn't be much of an issue.Who would be concerned if an L trader isn't fulfilling its duties when they could easily construct another 10?

I don't build shipyards in order to construct ships for free. Tried that once (back in 3.0) but find the Trade aspect of the game's much more fun if I buy all of my ships from NPC shipyards. Keeps credits as a meaningful concept for longer & stimulates demand at NPC shipyards for the high value wares I want to sell them. Also means it's quite important for me to get efficient use out of my ships - each one is a valuable resource & significant investment for me, at least for the first few weeks of a new game.

The only method to halt NPC factories and monopolize the market without resorting to the destruction of NPC stations is by flooding the market with goods priced at minimum rates.

Still unsure why I'd want to do that, rather than go after MUCH higher profit margins from selling full cargoes of high demand goods. What's the practical benefit of selling tiny consignments for minimal profit into an already saturated market?

[flywlyx]

Nope, it's a solution I use throughout each game. As soon as my very first production module is active I adjust it's prices to ensure that what it makes & the resources it requires can be delivered in bulk.

If you don't have the same type of traders in a single station, you'll experience reduced efficiency due to differing ideal cargo sizes.

High demand resources are only going to be available in low quantities. Hardly the freighter's fault if it's transporting low quantities because that's all that it could buy. In such circumstances I build my own production facilities to make those resources, rather than relying on NPC sources which are already overstretched, expensive & unreliable.

This is about early game trading issue not end game manufacturing.

I don't build shipyards in order to construct ships for free. Tried that once (back in 3.0) but find the Trade aspect of the game's much more fun if I buy all of my ships from NPC shipyards. Keeps credits as a meaningful concept for longer & stimulates demand at NPC shipyards for the high value wares I want to sell them. Also means it's quite important for me to get efficient use out of my ships - each one is a valuable resource & significant investment for me, at least for the first few weeks of a new game.
Still unsure why I'd want to do that, rather than go after MUCH higher profit margins from selling full cargoes of high demand goods. What's the practical benefit of selling tiny consignments for minimal profit into an already saturated market?

Allowing NPCs to handle manufacturing is a complete waste of system computing resources, which are the only resources of significance in the X4 universe.
Their ships are poorly constructed, and their stations contain an excessive number of unnecessary modules.
The pinnacle of efficiency lies in the player taking control of all manufacturing processes.
So, you're faced with two choices: either flood the market with your goods, forcing them to dismantle their stations, or sacrifice efficiency by allowing them to handle manufacturing.

[GCU Grey Area]

If you don't have the same type of traders in a single station, you'll experience reduced efficiency due to differing ideal cargo sizes.

What does that have to do with adjusting prices? Your response has nothing to do with the text you quoted. Anyway, don't tend to do that. Prefer all of my trade ships to be L. There's more profit to be made with a single L delivery than multiple S or M deliveries of the same total amount to the same destination, since in the latter case the price will shift unfavourably each time a trade takes place. It also minimises pirate encounters, since the only pirates which hunt L freighters are their destroyers & there aren't all that many of them in the universe at any given time.

This is about early game trading issue not end game manufacturing.

Again you're making incorrect assumptions about my earlier post. Don't assume that more than one production module = end game. Right from the start with my first station, when deciding what to build I look for a profitable high demand end product, then consider the avaialability of resources to make it. Anything that's readily available (therefore cheap) I buy from NPC stations & build production for resources that NPCs are going to struggle to supply at a decent price or in sufficient quantity.

Allowing NPCs to handle manufacturing is a complete waste of system computing resources, which are the only resources of significance in the X4 universe.
Their ships are poorly constructed, and their stations contain an excessive number of unnecessary modules.
The pinnacle of efficiency lies in the player taking control of all manufacturing processes.
So, you're faced with two choices: either flood the market with your goods, forcing them to dismantle their stations, or sacrifice efficiency by allowing them to handle manufacturing.

You play the game in a very odd manner indeed. Have absolutely no interest in 'taking control of all manufacturing processes'. Find the Trade game is far more fun if I interact with NPC factions rather than attempting exlude them entirely from the game, leaving no one to trade with. It's also hardly relevant to the OP who just wants to know how to use their L freighters efficiently.

[jlehtone]

This is about early game trading issue not end game manufacturing.

So -- in OP terms -- the game "gets smarter" the longer you play?

Still unsure why I'd want to do that, rather than go after MUCH higher profit margins from selling full cargoes of high demand goods. What's the practical benefit of selling tiny consignments for minimal profit into an already saturated market?

The pinnacle of efficiency lies in the player taking control of all manufacturing processes.
So, you're faced with two choices: either flood the market with your goods, forcing them to dismantle their stations, or sacrifice efficiency by allowing them to handle manufacturing.

Those "choices" look like maximize profitss or maximize production. For both goals, the NPC have a limit on how much they consume. Player can build endless stations and ships on top of that, but those do not yield profitsss -- only consume CPU cycles.

[Zagreus86]

We've no idea as we don't know how you are setting them up nor the economy in play. Most players eventually seem to make things work OK with a bit of patience and trial-and-error.

Own sector - 10 stations (trade rule - only my own stations): Station 1 (own) - 5 L warehouses is FULL! Station 2 (own) - 1 L warehouse is Empty!.. (all auto) Own L trader take 16 units of goods (auto trade)... Why???

[flywlyx]

So -- in OP terms -- the game "gets smarter" the longer you play?

Indeed, players could finally bypass the trading system altogether.

Those "choices" look like maximize profitss or maximize production. For both goals, the NPC have a limit on how much they consume. Player can build endless stations and ships on top of that, but those do not yield profitsss -- only consume CPU cycles.

What you're describing is essentially the same objective: achieving a mega monopoly. This approach maximizes profits and production simultaneously.
The mega monopoly only requires miners. By eliminating all NPC stations, players can conserve CPU cycles. Additionally, since traders are no longer necessary, the entire system becomes significantly more efficient.

[flywlyx]

What does that have to do with adjusting prices? Your response has nothing to do with the text you quoted. Anyway, don't tend to do that.

Are you unaware that various types of goods require different cargo capacities, leading to varying optimal prices for ships with different cargo capacities?

Prefer all of my trade ships to be L. There's more profit to be made with a single L delivery than multiple S or M deliveries of the same total amount to the same destination, since in the latter case the price will shift unfavourably each time a trade takes place. It also minimises pirate encounters, since the only pirates which hunt L freighters are their destroyers & there aren't all that many of them in the universe at any given time.

You're essentially outlining an end-game solution for an early-game issue.
This problem primarily affects players who prioritize the efficiency of their L traders and require high-demand goods to meet their production needs.
If players could produce everything and outfit their stations with a large number of L traders, this wouldn't be much of an issue.Who would be concerned if an L trader isn't fulfilling its duties when they could easily construct another 10?

Again you're making incorrect assumptions about my earlier post. Don't assume that more than one production module = end game. Right from the start with my first station, when deciding what to build I look for a profitable high demand end product, then consider the avaialability of resources to make it. Anything that's readily available (therefore cheap) I buy from NPC stations & build production for resources that NPCs are going to struggle to supply at a decent price or in sufficient quantity.

Your preference is just one way to approach it. The optimal method would involve selecting war missions that offer the highest profits, and manufacturing your own ships to greatly enhance those profits.

You play the game in a very odd manner indeed. Have absolutely no interest in 'taking control of all manufacturing processes'. Find the Trade game is far more fun if I interact with NPC factions rather than attempting exlude them entirely from the game, leaving no one to trade with. It's also hardly relevant to the OP who just wants to know how to use their L freighters efficiently.

In that case, don't bring up any end game "efficiency" discussions with me. You're the one who initiated this "efficiency" topic, not me.
Everything you're discussing is based on your preference, not necessarily what's most efficient.

[GCU Grey Area]

Own sector - 10 stations (trade rule - only my own stations): Station 1 (own) - 5 L warehouses is FULL! Station 2 (own) - 1 L warehouse is Empty!.. (all auto) Own L trader take 16 units of goods (auto trade)... Why???

Could still do with a bit more info to diagnose what the problem is. Since it's an internal logistics matter it seems likely that the problem has arisen due to how storage is configured at station 2 - i.e. it's possible that there was only enough room for 16 units so that's all that could be transported. Presumably 'all auto' means that the station's still running on default automatic settings for storage configuration? This is not necessarily the best setting for all circumstances, particularly if it's a warehouse station without any production modules. A more thorough description of station 2 may be helpful to work out what's gone wrong.

In that case, don't bring up any end game "efficiency" discussions with me. You're the one who initiated this "efficiency" topic, not me.
Everything you're discussing is based on your preference, not necessarily what's most efficient.

I am done with discussing anything with you. You seem to be obsessed with derailing the thread by bringing up irrelevant end game topics that I have very little interest in & which have absolutely no relevance at all to Zagreus86's logistics problem.

[Alan Phipps]

@ all: Play nicely please. Threads that start with expletives and hyperbole usually seem to go downhill quite quickly.