Question about enemies wanting to build in your territory / somethings I disagree with / bad ingame logic

[lordmuck]

Hey

So currently I am SETAn-ing a lot due to the whole station build I am trying to complete which may take 6 hours of seta. So during this time after having taken over pious mists 2, the PAR keep trying to build two defence platforms. No sooner do I blow one up they lay down another plot!!! Which is mind blowing.

What I disagree with is that the PAR hire my friendly factions to build their crap in my territory.
Why do I disagree with this:
1, My allies should know that this is my enemy and that this would IRL cause major issues between both friendly factions would it not??
2, Due to friendly constructors, I cannot blow the constructors up nor keep these pesky defence platforms from being built!

3, I could get a faction to send their constructor into enemy territory and let them blow it up.

IMO defence platforms to be built in a enemy faction territory(A)/contested territory should be built by the factions own constructors ONLY! unless they hire a faction that is also at war or past -12 rep

[ei8htx]

Good suggestion!

I've been supporting the HOP economically for a while now in my current game, and getting ready to take primary role in the war against the evil PAR.

Good to know I'll have to look out for this.

IMO the AI shouldn't even try to build a defense platform until they have military control of the sector; maybe down to where there's only 1 defense platform left or something (and at least never build another while they have a pending build).

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Egosoft have indicated that the player faction controls are slated for improvement in v3.0, perhaps something along the lines of what you are asking for is already planned.

[pref]

Seems like a bug/oversight.

At least for war activity races should use their own ships only - especially for defence/admin station construction.
I'd post this in beta/tech sp forum depending on your game version.

[Tomonor]

3.0 is going to expand upon diplomacy and ownership options. Let's hope this will be addressed with it too.

[pref]

3.0 is going to expand upon diplomacy and ownership options. Let's hope this will be addressed with it too.

This has nothing to do with diplomacy or any such features. It's an incorrect logic that needs a fix.

[Falcrack]

Plots from hostile factions, until any actual construction has been laid down, should be invisible on the map and game until any wares are delivered. At the time wares are delivered, the build storage should become visible to hostile factions, at which point destroying the build storage the dock itself should erase that plot from the game.

[lordmuck]

Good suggestion!

I've been supporting the HOP economically for a while now in my current game, and getting ready to take primary role in the war against the evil PAR.

Good to know I'll have to look out for this.

IMO the AI shouldn't even try to build a defense platform until they have military control of the sector; maybe down to where there's only 1 defense platform left or something (and at least never build another while they have a pending build).

LOL the HOP have done this in Pious mists 2
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Which I thought was fixed!

Egosoft have indicated that the player faction controls are slated for improvement in v3.0, perhaps something along the lines of what you are asking for is already planned.

Hope so

Seems like a bug/oversight.

At least for war activity races should use their own ships only - especially for defence/admin station construction.
I'd post this in beta/tech sp forum depending on your game version.

Totally think so too.

3.0 is going to expand upon diplomacy and ownership options. Let's hope this will be addressed with it too.

This has nothing to do with diplomacy or any such features. It's an incorrect logic that needs a fix.

Going to agree with Pref on this one.

Plots from hostile factions, until any actual construction has been laid down, should be invisible on the map and game until any wares are delivered. At the time wares are delivered, the build storage should become visible to hostile factions, at which point destroying the build storage the dock itself should erase that plot from the game.

I agree, however I am talking about the constructors building the plot.

Right now pious mists 2 has a few 100 build storage full with goodies I shall be collecting later.. you know for performance reasons ROFL

[ei8htx]

Good suggestion!

I've been supporting the HOP economically for a while now in my current game, and getting ready to take primary role in the war against the evil PAR.

Good to know I'll have to look out for this.

IMO the AI shouldn't even try to build a defense platform until they have military control of the sector; maybe down to where there's only 1 defense platform left or something (and at least never build another while they have a pending build).

LOL the HOP have done this in Pious mists 2

I see your Pious Mists 2 and raise you one Scale Plate Green:

Spoiler

Show

This game kicked off somewhere around 1.8 Beta

[lordmuck]

Good suggestion!

I've been supporting the HOP economically for a while now in my current game, and getting ready to take primary role in the war against the evil PAR.

Good to know I'll have to look out for this.

IMO the AI shouldn't even try to build a defense platform until they have military control of the sector; maybe down to where there's only 1 defense platform left or something (and at least never build another while they have a pending build).

LOL the HOP have done this in Pious mists 2

I see your Pious Mists 2 and raise you one Scale Plate Green:

snip

This game kicked off somewhere around 1.8 Beta

Are these from the same faction too?

[ei8htx]

Yea, Teladi trying to take back SPG from the Xenon.

[eMYNOCK]

sigh... let me help in understanding what exactly happens in that system and why ships that are unrelated from your perspective help your declared enemy.

1st:
HOP is at War with everyone except the Player.

2nd:
PAR is friend or neutral with everyone except HOP


now the situation:
PAR is your declared enemy, they try to INVADE and reclaim their former System that is now under your control.
(works as intended, factions try to invade enemy space)

they also have good/neutral standings with ARG, ANT, TEL & MIN, therefore they can hire those factions Builders to make sure their own builders won't get wrecked in enemy space.
(side effect because we can't tell other factions that WE are at war with someone other than HOP)

so far everything works how it is supposed to work... with only one major drawback...


summary:
the other factions do not KNOW that you are at War with PAR and are trying to help someone who is not THEIR enemy.

i personally can only point towards 3.0 when the Player can become a true Faction and make their own Laws... hopefully we can than tell otherwise unrelated Factions that they are about to help an enemy of the local authority and are commiting a crime when building for them.

[lordmuck]

sigh... let me help in understanding what exactly happens in that system and why ships that are unrelated from your perspective help your declared enemy.

1st:
HOP is at War with everyone except the Player.

2nd:
PAR is friend or neutral with everyone except HOP


now the situation:
PAR is your declared enemy, they try to INVADE and reclaim their former System that is now under your control.
(works as intended, factions try to invade enemy space)

they also have good/neutral standings with ARG, ANT, TEL & MIN, therefore they can hire those factions Builders to make sure their own builders won't get wrecked in enemy space.
(side effect because we can't tell other factions that WE are at war with someone other than HOP)

so far everything works how it is supposed to work... with only one major drawback...


summary:
the other factions do not KNOW that you are at War with PAR and are trying to help someone who is not THEIR enemy.

i personally can only point towards 3.0 when the Player can become a true Faction and make their own Laws... hopefully we can than tell otherwise unrelated Factions that they are about to help an enemy of the local authority and are commiting a crime when building for them.

I sat here and read all this a few times and all I can think of, is you didnt understand the point I am trying to make.

Sigh....1 I know. 2 I know. The situation I know and they should. I know their standings with the other factions. Summery: the logic is crap.

Would you send a few hundred people to build in some country that is at war with another state/country??? and then how would you expect the people react once those few hundred people end up dead because you sent them to build something that is causing an issue to the opposing faction right in front of the enemy of the person you are trying to help not only in the territory but right in front of the enemy firing squad? Its not about player being a faction or not. Its more about common sense that has been overlooked in game. No one in this world would try it, do it and no one that its causing an issue to would allow it.

[eMYNOCK]

Summery: the logic is crap.

exactly that is the point... and exactly that is what hopefully is subject to change in an upcoming update.

Would you send a few hundred people to build in some country that is at war with another state/country??? and then how would you expect the people react once those few hundred people end up dead because you sent them to build something that is causing an issue to the opposing faction right in front of the enemy of the person you are trying to help not only in the territory but right in front of the enemy firing squad? Its not about player being a faction or not. Its more about common sense that has been overlooked in game. No one in this world would try it, do it and no one that its causing an issue to would allow it.

nothing to add except one sentence...


the script that handels Invasions simply does not knows better, it handles the player as a faction... and again, that is exactly what has to be adressed in the mentioned upcoming update.



also there could be an even worse scenario than your enemy building defence stations in your space...

imagine you would have conquered a system that is in vincinity of 2 allies and one hostile (or 2 hostiles and one ally... or 3 hostiles).

suddenly just everyone that has a direct connection to that system would start to build defence stations there... your allies to couter an enemy invasion.. the enemies to invade etcpp.

as said... there are no building restrictions in place and be it that you simply forbid any interactions with your enemy in your territory.

[pref]

I see your Pious Mists 2 and raise you one Scale Plate Green:

Spoiler

Show

This game kicked off somewhere around 1.8 Beta

Think this is the result of 2 bugs/issues,
1, faction logic is messed up and builds way too many def platforms
2, combat/defence scripts are messed up and patrols/defence forces ignore enemy stations, or capships are too weak/stupid to kill enemy stations.

Have a similar outcome in faulty logic:

Spoiler

Show

[Imperial Good]

The problem here is that the other factions should stop trading with you and eventually hostile you because you are messing with their allies, the PAR.

[pref]

The problem here is that the other factions should stop trading with you and eventually hostile you because you are messing with their allies, the PAR.

No, that would just mean all the organic races except HOP would act as a single race. Not the best idea.
It could work if there was a way to gain permission or even support of other races to attack an ally via eco/combat achievements (some sort of diplomacy).
Or if violations of local rules would allow destruction of the involved ships without triggering a race-wide reputation loss.
Without that they better treat player independently from each other.
Races definitely should not send their own constructor ships into allied space to build a defence platform for your enemies. What makes this even worse is that they don't just build 1 defence platform like that but 10s of them.

[Imperial Good]

No, that would just mean all the organic races except HOP would act as a single race. Not the best idea.

This is the most lore correct idea however. Since that is basically what is meant to have happened and why ANT, ARG, PAR and TEL/MIN are all enemies of HOP. TEL/MIN otherwise have no reason to be enemies to HOP since fighting in wars is not good for profit, and if anything the Teladi would want to be supplying all sides with weapons as long as none of those weapons get pointed back at them.

[FlaviusGlok]

What about the Xenon who are also doing the same thing except they don't even have builders. Stuff gets delivered and things start to get built by no one.