NEWS: 2nd Twitch Live Stream on Sept 27th (20:00 CEST)

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

When Bernd first mentioned that the JD can have a negative effect on exploration, I agreed from an X3 perspective. The player needs to actively avoid sending other ships to explore, lay satellites and/or follow NPCs if they want to avoid uncovering new sectors and stations. Although once I'd played a couple of X2/X3 games, the potential for, and reward from, exploring tends to tail off due to remembering map layouts. Whereas from an XR perspective, I didn't agree since areas can only be properly explored by the player (no ordering ships to explore or follow other ships, and our owned ships don't fully reveal maps) and then the player gets to experience the varied systems and sectors first-hand.

Later when Owen talked about the removal of JDs as part of an increase in strategic gameplay, I didn't entirely agree form an XR perspective because it was only possible for capitals to jump to neighboring Jump Beacons (JBs) and not gates anymore. The XR galaxy feels big (moving through it instead of hopping over it) and moving assets around is much slower than in X3, such that their positioning matters more. I felt that an alternative to removing the JD in X4 could be to build on the XR approach by having factions deny hostile factions the use of their JBs. This would lead to invaders having the same tactical situation as if there was no JD.

But then I read CBJ's posts about other aspects of the design process. Specifically the aspect of wanting to facilitate the player being able to get involved with action in other parts of the galaxy before they're over. Something that's possible in X3 via the JD and in X4 via the enhancement to X3 teleporters. That was when I realised that just modifying the XR approach (e.g. keeping the JD and denying hostile use of JBs) wasn't going to help with that.

A lot of the combat action and missions in XR is player-triggered in their vicinity, or it's emergent but the player only hears about it near them. The choice is often, "Where do I want to make stuff happen?" rather than "Where is stuff happening?". For the player to be able to be strategic across multiple locations in X4 (hopefully prompted by factional conflict) and experience content where they happen to be (rather than where they feel like triggering it), I think some variant on classic JDs or the new teleporter is needed. Since I'm not so keen on galaxy-hoping aspect of the X3 teleporter these days, I look forward to testing out and feeding back on the X4 travel ecosystem.

[spankahontis]

Sorry but this "spawn out of thin air" just break up the sandbox part of the sandbox.

Supressing the Xenon sectors in X3 was frustratting and impossible because they just outspawn you eventually.
I don't like the idea of total annihilation of the faction, because at some point player might want them to return. However if player want to have them supressed it shouldn't need a lot of effort after you defeated most of their fleets and economy - that the point an goal of late game - otherwise you don't have anything else to do with your huge fleets and massive economy.
X3 and XR late games are plain boring without faction conquest. Additionally most of player tend to stay friendly with the normal factions, therefore Xenon s are the ideal target for conquest.

For me the perfect solution would be like that:
Xenon have basic economy - they gather resources with miners to "proessing plants" and then with freighters the "ship construction parts" are ferry to their shipyards which produce the ships for patrol and invasion fleets.

Player can fight the fleets or raid their production chain to dammage their economy. After player completely destroy them then after x-hours somewhere at remote random location new Xenon shipyard is spawned with basic construction ships and miners. If they are not found they will eventually rebuild their economy. However if player will find them they should be an easy prey.

Lorewise, Xenon have grown out of control across the X-Universe, so they couldn't possibly be exterminated 100%.

They will still be out there, so I'd prefer (For immersive reasons) that you could eliminate them to a point and then some far off area of unexplored space, another CPU Ship will reach the borders of Civilized space and begin replicating again.

The reward for eliminating the Xenon from known space should always be a 'Temporary Peace'.

Similar outlook should be towards Pirates. You eliminate all the major factions, it doesn't get rid of Piracy, it creates a power vacuum to which new criminals take the mantle of Pirate Chief.
Going after them when you notice an increase in Pirate raids keeps the crime at bay, leaving the pirates alone will create a much larger threat later.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@gbjbaanb

allowing their defences to be lured out to a far place while the player's "peaceful" force then attacks with impunity.

Not entirely sure how you could lure a defence fleet away from the place they are defending while you have "peaceful" relations with them.

However there is very old and very well understood military tactic.

The Feint:

A movement made in order to deceive an adversary; an attack aimed at one place or point merely as a distraction from the real place or point of attack.

So if the defence fleet had jump drives you would immediately remove this as an available and entirely valid tactic.

[EDIT] Of course the NPC AI would have to respond to the initial distraction. Something that is not guaranteed in the X-Universe

[Killjaeden]

Fast forward to X4:

So if we remove the jump drive and also point to point jumping.
Then make the Xenon build their ships from resources at their shipyards.
It will take sometime for them to have the forces necessary to try to regain the lost sectors.

In a map like X3 they would then have to travel across many hostile sectors.
Causing on the way collateral damage but also suffering casualties.
I don't have any idea what the full map in X4 will be like, but isolated pockets like the above
sectors will be more vulnerable, and would make good candidates for sector take over.

So if the guys at EGO are playing fair, then we should not be seeing ships just pop into existence.
They will have to be properly manufactured by all NPCs. They will all have the same travel
restrictions.

You dislike endless spawning in X3 - and i agree. But this has nothing to do with the jumpdrive itself. The spawning in Xenon sectors (or in missions) was always masked by jumpdrive flashes. But they didnt exist before, they could have appeared without jumpdrive just as well - it just wouldnt flash. It wouldnt have made any noticeable difference either if the Xenon would simply spawn in waaaay out off the sector center and then fly towards it. In either case, the numbers are still endless. The insta-JD was already there, so using it to pop in new ships in relatively close proximit to sector center was justifieable from a lore logic standpoint.
Oh and btw - xenon ships traveling from one xenon sector to another (after cleansing the later), through race territory was already in X3. A certain amount spawned at shipyards of other sectors, then travelled to the new sector. The spawning was still 'free' / timer based (as every spawning in X3) and shipyard was purely for optics...

If hypothetically the same endless spawning from nothing was used in X4, it would have the same effect. The travel system has no bearance on it. It's simply a matter of what location(s) you define as spawnpoint.

Also, unless you accept eventual total annihilation of xenon/ any other faction from the game with no return as a concept for X4, there will always be 'free' spawning. Its just a matter of how quick, how much and the choice of spawn location that makes it "acceptable" vs "annoying".

[spankahontis]

Finally, I'm LOVING the travel mechanic changes:
- No jumpdrive
- Long highways to get from gate to gate
- No highways navigating around the whole zone
- Gate to cross between clusters

I have an internal conflict on that. On one side, the Jumpdrive is basically what starts the development of the whole games lore (differente from the history, which is more bounded to the discovery of portals) and have it gone is a bit sad. Poor Mr. Brennan and his X-Shuttle
From another point of view, however, not having the Jumpdrive brings more strategy in the whole game: where to put stations, where to put ships, how to move them because I can't simply jump there with my Osaka and destroy everything

I would prefer some kind of strong limitations, like the capability to use it only in presence of beacons (so you first need to deploy a beacon before you can freely jump to its position), or only in certain sectors (i.e. far from planets), or again only certain very big - and expensive - ships can use it.

That's the same conflict I am having here.

I was never a big fan of Jumpdrives to begin with and I agree with Egosoft that it takes away the 'Size and Scale of the Universe' and that it's generally used to cheat your way out of a difficult situation.

But Lorewise? I feel the same conflict, it was readily available in X3, lost and new models modified in X:Rebirth to only be used by big ships. with exception of the Unfocussed Jumpdrive, which can be ignored as a Skyrim style argument that "Who won the civil war? The Empire or the Stormcloaks or neither?" There is a realm of choosing how you decide the story goes? on that point. And if it doesn't turn out that way in the next instalment of the game then there is nothing lost lore wise.

There could be an argument that this section of Space that was separated from the goings on of X:Rebirth had a similar situation, that they lost the blueprints for smaller versions of the Jumpdrive?

Also the Jumpdrives were designed to work alongside the Jump Gates, if there was no working Jump Gates? Then that would make sense, but from alpha footage, there are Working Jump Gates in the game.

They should just return to the Rebirth model of jump beacons, but tweak the times between jumps so that it's time consuming to jump and you have to wait a long time for the ship to jump again.
Restrict jumpdrives to Capital Ships.

Or even just make ships only capable of jumping from Sector to Sector? Or even one big jump from one side of the Sector to the next which you see an awesome Star Trek style warp jump and see it emerge the other side of the warp bubble.

[sd_jasper]

Lore? Lore is whatever ES comes up with. Hell, I'll just rattle off some ideas. I'm not sure what the lore is on how jump-drives work. I know it is an "instantaneous" travel from one point to another, but how? Is it space folding, micro-second travel through hyperspace? Wormholes? I don't think it really matters, but I'm going to assume for these that there is some sort of "jump-space" that connects the two points when a jump happens. Anyway here are some ideas:

1) Xenon - The Xenon have developed a way to jump from even greater distances to a Jump Beacon or Gate and after massive invasions began, it was decided to destroy the existing jump beacons and put "Jump Scramblers" on the gates to prevent these invasions.

2) Gate Frequency interference - After the gates reactivated, it started to become harder and harder to perform jumps. For whatever reason the gates seemed to be creating some sort of "jump-space" (sub-space? hyper-space?) interference. The power needed to jump climbed and climbed till now the energy cost to jump exceeds what a ships mass could possibly hold.

3) The "Jump Bomb" - During the last few years of the war, a weapon was developed and deployed that "damaged" jump-space. After detention jumping in the intimidate area became impossible. What the bomb builders didn't know was that the "damage" would spread. Over the years it had slowly expanded out. Jump-space is not the same size or shape as normal space, so it spread quickly till jump-drives stopped working everywhere (known).

4) Chuthulu - He's in the jump-space and eating your ships.

[Fedora01]

4) Chuthulu - He's in the jump-space and eating your ships.

It all makes sense now

[-Dna-]

Lore? Lore is whatever ES comes up with. Hell, I'll just rattle off some ideas. I'm not sure what the lore is on how jump-drives work. I know it is an "instantaneous" travel from one point to another, but how? Is it space folding, micro-second travel through hyperspace? Wormholes? I don't think it really matters, but I'm going to assume for these that there is some sort of "jump-space" that connects the two points when a jump happens.

The lore of the X-Universe is written in the X-Encyclopedia document that comes with the X-Superbox. Everything until before X Rebirth is explained there. Jumpdrive discovery and functions included.

Everybody can read that, if they own the X-Superbox

[Axeface]

My initial reaction to no jump drives was "Wut?", simply because I am so used to them. But, after hearing the explanation for why they are being removed, I'm totally for it - with the addition of races being able to exspand, the lack of jumpdrives will add so much tactical play to the game. This is gameplay we've never really seen in X before.

Like they said, the player could for example station a fleet at a jump gate to protect an entire system (I hpe the AI can jump multiple capitals through a gate at the same time, or the player will be able to lock down the entire universe and never lose a ship).

The idea of an npc race doing the same is incredibly exciting.... (would be even more exciting if the game had the Boron in it ).

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Its going to be interesting to see how the traditional "bad guys" are going to behave now that there is no jump drive.

No pirates or Xenon just jumping in to any sector and harassing shipping. They are going to have to travel like everybody else.

Does this mean they will try to take over nearby sectors to spread their influence?

[Sandalpocalypse]

It depends on how sophisticated the spawning system is. Also on whether or not pirates can travel incognito.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I thought they said that all things were built using resources from the universe.

So I don't see how spawning has any effect on the number of Xenon and Pirates. I was thinking that if the pirates want to stage an attack they would have to build the required ships in the first place.

I was also expecting that any ships that were plundered by the pirates would
contribute to the building of the pirate forces.

I can see that missions will probably be different and that the targets will still get spawned in these cases.

[-Dna-]

I can see that missions will probably be different and that the targets will still get spawned in these cases.

Not if Egosoft implements the mission as chain-missions. Using a pirate attack as an example:

1. (Easy) Stop the pirate that are building ships. If successful stop the chain with a small reward, otherwise continue.
2. (Medium) Defend the pirate attack. If successful stop the chain with a higher reward (because higher risk), if not continue.
3. (Hard) Kill the pirate lord. Very high reward, since this guys has got many kills on its head, but also very dangerous.

In this process there is no spawning. If you apply this to the whole universe - since the player cannot be everywhere - you will have regions that have many Medium and Hard missions. At the same time, Hard mission will disappear when the security forces kill the pirate lord.

This is how I will implement the thing, then Egosoft could simple just spawn a fleet of mad pirates every hour just for fun

[Killjaeden]

I thought they said that all things were built using resources from the universe.

They haven't said that everything will be exclusively built from ressources. They mentioned that it might be necessary to spawn in stuff at times. Especially in context as a safety net to not allow some race to get obliterated totally (undecided) or ruined economically. I can also see them using spawning for spicing things up in missions.
Especially when it comes to plots and stuff they will most certainly require spawning/scripting in enemies.

Unless they can guarantee that everything is self-stabilising it will be necessary to provide a fallback method. An artificial eco system can quickly spiral out of controll if not very well balanced and designed.

X3 universe was anything but well balanced. Large sections of the universe died out eventually unless the player intervened. If they would have relied on ressource based spawning there, the universe would become empty in large sector clusters. The Terran Space in X3TC was notorious for declining economy.

[26072013]

Thanks for doing the stream. I believe it would be a great idea to do more of them every month or two.

Also: the game looks really good so far. Station building looks great. Multiple selections and the filter options in the map are exactly what I missed from the previous titles. I hope for more "fleet options" like automatical outfitting of fleets with technologies and equipment.

Really looking forward to more development news and videos of X4 now.

[Greenhorn]

Hi im just thinking people, in x3 I use the jumpdrive not just to explore ,but more importantly nobody mentiond it ; to escape from battle/ trouble coming my way/,no way to out-run the oppents too many drone/fighters hitting my shields knowing I wont survive for long.hmmm, having no jumpdrive in x4, makes me a little jitters..Anyway I liked the steam,hope thers another steam in the coming months, very interested in this new game.told my friend about this upcoming game for 2018.bye all.

[Crimsonraziel]

Hi im just thinking people, in x3 I use the jumpdrive not just to explore ,but more importantly nobody mentiond it ; to escape from battle/ trouble coming my way/,no way to out-run the oppents too many drone/fighters hitting my shields knowing I wont survive for long.hmmm, having no jumpdrive in x4, makes me a little jitters..

Exactly. I recently wiped out an entire xenon sector (more than 60 capital ships in total, some respawns etc.) with only one ship and hit & run powered by jumpdrive.

And that is the problem.

[Sandalpocalypse]

I thought they said that all things were built using resources from the universe.

So I don't see how spawning has any effect on the number of Xenon and Pirates. I was thinking that if the pirates want to stage an attack they would have to build the required ships in the first place.

I was also expecting that any ships that were plundered by the pirates would
contribute to the building of the pirate forces.

I can see that missions will probably be different and that the targets will still get spawned in these cases.

That's their goal, but that was also their goal in X Rebirth and they abandoned it at some point. If a simulated spawn system isn't sufficient for pirates/xenon they will certainly supplement it with ghost spawns.

[Kitty]

Hi im just thinking people, in x3 I use the jumpdrive not just to explore ,but more importantly nobody mentiond it ; to escape from battle/ trouble coming my way/,no way to out-run the oppents too many drone/fighters hitting my shields knowing I wont survive for long.hmmm, having no jumpdrive in x4, makes me a little jitters..

Exactly. I recently wiped out an entire xenon sector (more than 60 capital ships in total, some respawns etc.) with only one ship and hit & run powered by jumpdrive.

And that is the problem.

That's not a problem, that is a solution. You had a tool, you found a way to use it. That's the sandbox.

Next step could have been to have NPC use the same strategy.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Destroying sector after Xenon sector in a Boreas is something I have done in the past. It was an enjoyable experience.

But just stop and think about that. A single ship able to destroy 60 other capital vessels. Mostly down to strafe and its ability in some cases to move
a capital vessel faster than its main engine.

In X4 your ship is going to have many sub-systems that can be destroyed as
a fight goes on. Turrets, engines, localised shielding... These systems will take time to be repaired. So overtime your ship will become less and less effective.

If you are going to take on a number of enemy ships then you are going to
have to bring your own fleet.

I guess this is where the strategy part comes in THINK (I need a fleet),
BUILD (construct a fleet) FIGHT (take the fleet to the enemy.)

Using the shiny new map interface to wage war.