NEWS: 2nd Twitch Live Stream on Sept 27th (20:00 CEST)

[Killjaeden]

On the other hand you jump to the nearest gate, only to find you have to cross
several sectors to get to your ship. Result, one lost freighter and fighter support.

Thats what i already mentioned. Even if the JD was instant, you can't just use a hand full of combat ships to reach across the entire universe in an instant due to the new layout. That's a good thing, because sector guards have to be stationed locally (or mobile as escorts) / strategical placement is important - despite jumpdrive.

Additionally, think about the AI/NPC factions. How good do you think will X4's strategical AI be to bring their ships where they need it most? Based on the AI we have seen with many RTS - making such AI that has presentiment and can do human-level forecasting is bloody hard. Not even highly praised RTS strategic games (total war series, supreme commander to name a few) have that. And i don't think thats down to incompetence.

Ergo, with AI "faction commander" capability limited in forecast and planning, he needs at least be good in reaction. Except that it is no use, when he reacts immediately to send out the fleet when they then have to leg it across 4 clusters before they get anywhere. The player can easily exploit such reactionary behaviour, because (like mentioned) - the AI does not plan ahead well unless superbly written and spending a lot of time on it.

Edit: Time for combat also ties into this question a lot. How long does it take for a few ships (say a single capital ships with some escorts) to destroy a certain thing. In X3 vanilla it was basically seconds after the carpet of balls of death connected with the target. XR took a bit longer, but still was fairly short. That means the fight is already over when reinforcements arrive. The question is, how much damage to the infrastructure those ships can do after the fight before reinforcements arrive, when they can't jump. When someone is just reacting directly to attacks (sending ships from all the way across his systems) he will be extremely vulnerable to hit and run tactics when they take a long time to arrive. The more time it takes between decision to go there and arrival, the more elaborate the planning ahead he has to do is. He might resort to blocking all access ways with strong force to prevent intrusion instead. Now you have "Case C" in effect, where someone hostile (accidental, voluntary or forced) can not enter their space whatsoever. Preventing hit and run but also blocking any traffic to other clusters.

Why not making a loading-phase and a cooldown for a jumpdrive?

Mentioned that too. Apparently that also falls under the "overly powerfull or useless" blanket that ES would like to burry the Jumpdrive mechanic with.

But i think IF there will be no jumpdrive at release, some modders will add something like this. I don´t think we have to miss this feature too long

The change that would bring the greatest change (imo) would be transit times during which the ship is unavailable. But modding in some kind of warp tunnel animation will be very difficult because, usually, it's not possible to just put a ship into the "void" to be unavailable, but without deleting the ships, and expect the interface (property screen etc) to handle it well. And what might work ok for NPC's might not work for players. So this will be either very tricky or impossible to execute by modders.
Also, an interface representation that indicates where your "jumping" ships currently are in transit (expected arrival time/ travel direction) on the map is also something that would propably fall under the impossible things to implement by mod.

[mr.WHO]

Watching the stream for the 2nd time I noticed nice bacground music that has that classic X1/X2/X3 vibe, rather than the bland XR music.

[PowerPC603]

Removing the jumpdrive is simply done for strategic reasons and I like it though, even when I'll miss it.

In X3, you only needed one Springblossom and one Boreas to conquer everything in your path.
The Springblossom was just to get somewhere fast, and when you needed extra firepower to kill another destroyer or station, just call your Boreas, which will be there in less than a minute and blast your target away.

So with only 2 ships, you owned everything.
There was no need to THINK, just buy one destroyer and one fast Corvette and it was almost game-over for the enemy.

There was also no need to stategically position your stations/complexes because the entire universe was only one jump away, so to speak.
You could build your 1000-factory complex (and produce every product there) in Menelaus Oasis (bottom-right of the X3TC map) and sell your stuff to Kingdom End (upper left sector).

It was simply too OP and boring, because there was no reason to own a fleet and to THINK (which is one of the huge aspects of the X-games: BUILD, FIGHT, THINK, TRADE).

Now in X4, you have to own multiple destroyers and park them strategically at certain points of intrest (most likely near gates where the Xenon can enter our space).
Then you can teleport to them and do your thing.

So you'll less likely overpower the enemy soon because you need the money to buy multiple destroyers instead of just one.

Also your trading fleet was allowed to use the jumpdrive, giving the player the whole advantage over npc's.
Npc's had to fly through dozens of sectors to buy something, while player ships could do that same trip 10 times in the same time an npc needs for 1 trip.

[Flippi]

Even though I shouldn't, I'll post my opinion.

Over the years, Egosoft created a nice, interesting universe that grew with each game. However, X Rebirth and partly X3AP basically ruined this franchise. While AP was definitely the best X3 game, it didn't care that much about the lore of the Universe. But it wasn't problematic yet. X Rebirth was the one that topped this by creating an alternate universe-like iteration of the X Series. Systems that shouldn't even exist in the context of the universe were created, old ships were falsely named, like the Xenon M and L (X3 Models) that were named M and N. Or the fact that the Raptor was now a destroyer, instead of a carrier. Just to name a few things.

The fact that the Universe was about to be disconnected in X3AP made Systems like Devries impossible to exist!

Now that they retconned the Jump Drive, or just simply left them out without mention, the credibility of the franchise took another hard blow. Don't get me wrong! The old games had lots of flaws too. Many things were contradicting, and differences between the novels and the games existed from day one. There were even differences between languages! Just read the Sector description of Eighteen Billion in the English version and then in the German version of AP!

But X Rebirth, and now X4 just simply erase everything we knew about the X Universe. Anyone that went a tiny bit deeper than the usual sandbox gameplay of the X Series will find out that the franchise is contradicting to the extreme.

Many of you will simply not care about this. That's fine! But I do care. Because it wasn't only the Sandbox I grew to like. It was the Universe. Egosoft managed to screw up the franchise until it was barely recognisable. I could go on, but I feel this is not the right place.

Deleting the Jumpdrive is in my opinion the latest of many stupid things, Egosoft did to the Series. And for me, it's finally enough.


Greeting Flippi

[JSDD]

Why not making a loading-phase and a cooldown for a jumpdrive?
I really don´t like the decission of just teleporting yourself through the whole galaxy because it´s a step back.

maybe you've misundestood the "teleporter" thing: it's a way to interact or take over the control of your property (ships). it's not a way of teleporting your current ship to another place, but a way of teleporting you (person) into another ship, like the "transporter device" from X3 ... but frankly, i dont know if that's a good thing of not ...

[Santi]

It is a new thing, that nowadays is a rare occurrence when it comes to videogames franchises. Of course it is natural that when you really enjoy a game you ask for more of the same, bigger, better and stronger. Forgetting that what made that game special was the novelty of the gameplay/graphic elements.

X4 is being designed with Egosoft new engine, it is normal that they will want to explore different ways to do things compared to the old engine. I see no problem with that really, and personally, I think the game will benefit from it on the long term, plenty of players that are happy to give feedback once they play the game. And Egosoft is quite flexible to accommodate that feedback when is possible.

[Kitty]

Many thanks CBJ for your explanations.
I understand that you had a bing brainstorming on Jumpdrive. Well, I'm not surprised, and I'm sure you did think on many, if not all, aspects of the game.

Now, I won't tell much more about the Jumpdrive. I did tell in a secondary thread with a poll (whose result is explicit and interesting even if it has been blocked by the moderator for reasons I will not comment either).

X4 has now many features that are different from X3 and from XR. I may or may not like the balance it will have, but I won't call it X4. You say that the story/background (don't remember the exact word) has to fit the game mechanics and not the reverse. Maybe. But it has to fit. XR background was a failure. I suspect X4 will be too. Well, it's sad, but it's life.

Jumpdrive is dead (at least untill a script make it back), ok.
Highways are still there, ok. (I was not really bothered by this, anyway).
Gates are back, super. (How to explain an intersolar jump with highways? no way - remember of Freelancer).
Teleport to ship is in. ok. It's a pain in the ass to replace Jumpdrive by Teleport, but ok.
The background is collapsing, ok. It was not thaaaat solid, anyway.
Borons are out. It's a crime, but ok.

Factory building is much much improved, that's GREAT.
Research exists. We will be frustrated with it. But it's great anyway.
Multiple ships piloting is back. This is GREAT.
Fleet management is improved. Super. I hope this will not become "just" a real time strategy wargame, it would be a pity, but adding this is super.

HOTAS are handled. Indeed, this is THE feature that is not negociable for me. First person fly with big joystick. Not first person walk. I Hate Doom and the like. I wanna fly.

I still don't know if I'll play X4 more than a couple of hours. I know you do your best. So, good continuation, and many thanks for the streaming.

[Flippi]

X4 is being designed with Egosoft new engine, it is normal that they will want to explore different ways to do things compared to the old engine. I see no problem with that really, and personally, I think the game will benefit from it on the long term, plenty of players that are happy to give feedback once they play the game. And Egosoft is quite flexible to accommodate that feedback when is possible.

No one argues about the game engine. It was about time, a new engine was created! But my point is about the Universe. Imagine Star Trek without Warp drive!

Egosoft should have simply used Plan A, which was a new franchise. A fresh Universe with fresh ideas, no one would be against that. Back then, the game was called TNBT or, The Next Big Thing. Shortly after that, they announced X Rebirth with a trailer about a Supernova changing everything. Still waiting on that part....

We wouldn't have the discussion about Jump Drives (or lore altogether), if X4 was simply set in a different Universe. And people wouldn't complain about missing Borons, or Terrans and such, because it would be something completely new. And people like me wouldn't complain about the universe not making any sense. It would solve many issues.


Greetings Flippi

[JonRedcorn862]

X4 is being designed with Egosoft new engine, it is normal that they will want to explore different ways to do things compared to the old engine. I see no problem with that really, and personally, I think the game will benefit from it on the long term, plenty of players that are happy to give feedback once they play the game. And Egosoft is quite flexible to accommodate that feedback when is possible.

No one argues about the game engine. It was about time, a new engine was created! But my point is about the Universe. Imagine Star Trek without Warp drive!

Egosoft should have simply used Plan A, which was a new franchise. A fresh Universe with fresh ideas, no one would be against that. Back then, the game was called TNBT or, The Next Big Thing. Shortly after that, they announced X Rebirth with a trailer about a Supernova changing everything. Still waiting on that part....

We wouldn't have the discussion about Jump Drives (or lore altogether), if X4 was simply set in a different Universe. And people wouldn't complain about missing Borons, or Terrans and such, because it would be something completely new. And people like me wouldn't complain about the universe not making any sense. It would solve many issues.


Greetings Flippi

Pretend it is? If some missing lore and stuff not adding up is going to stop you from playing what is looking like the best space based game to come out in ages then more power to you.

[Flippi]

Pretend it is? If some missing lore and stuff not adding up is going to stop you from playing what is looking like the best space based game to come out in ages then more power to you.

Sorry, but I don't believe advertising stuff like this any more. Not after X Rebirth. And no, I can't just pretend it's a new Setting. That's like me playing Star Wars Battlefront, pretending to play a Stargate Shooter. It simply doesn't work that way.

Egosoft has to prove that X4 is good. But the fact that the franchise itself reached its end simply means they will have it infinitely harder to impress people like me. And pre ordering X4 after the last release is certainly out of the question. And no day one purchase either.

Additionally, I am not impressed by the footage at all. Modular Stations are neat and all, but so was the building aspect of X Rebirth. In the end, it was a buggy, horrible mess, that ruined most of its potential. The same with Drone Remote control, Drones as replacement for Fighters, close dogfights around capships and stations etc.. So no, this does not look good, until release day proved that things actually work well.


Greetings Flippi

[RAVEN.myst]

Additionally, think about the AI/NPC factions. How good do you think will X4's strategical AI be to bring their ships where they need it most? Based on the AI we have seen with many RTS - making such AI that has presentiment and can do human-level forecasting is bloody hard. Not even highly praised RTS strategic games (total war series, supreme commander to name a few) have that. And i don't think thats down to incompetence.

Ergo, with AI "faction commander" capability limited in forecast and planning, he needs at least be good in reaction. Except that it is no use, when he reacts immediately to send out the fleet when they then have to leg it across 4 clusters before they get anywhere. The player can easily exploit such reactionary behaviour, because (like mentioned) - the AI does not plan ahead well unless superbly written and spending a lot of time on it.

...
When someone is just reacting directly to attacks (sending ships from all the way across his systems) he will be extremely vulnerable to hit and run tactics when they take a long time to arrive.

This all seems to lead inevitably to the usual (and utterly repulsive) mandated "cheaty" hack fix: NPCs ending up being magicked in when they are needed, because they simply can't cope with the restrictive mechanics.

But i think IF there will be no jumpdrive at release, some modders will add something like this. I don´t think we have to miss this feature too long

Wow, I'm actually aghast at this (no offense intended, though, Lc4Hunter - and I happen to agree with everything else you posted) - it's this sort of permissive thinking that has contributed to the relaxing of quality standards in the game publishing industry. If players shrug and resign themselves to condoning the game being fixed by modders, then that takes the responsibility off the developers to deliver a complete, properly rounded title. It's not unlike buying stolen goods - that simply supports crime, even if slightly indirectly.


I think that players who argue that taking out the JD "increases strategic/tactical possibilities" are looking at it in a one-sided fashion. The JD has always required specific fixed destination points (UFJD is a special and irrelevant case) - be it a gate, or as of X3TC (lore-wise) and X3AP (functionally) a jump beacon. These points constitute choke-points, and thus would be the focus of defense, given how they would be the entry points for invaders. Taking away the JD also takes away the strategic dimension of defending those beacons.

Also, the notion of taking away a mobility option expanding strategic options in general is a fallacy by definition: if you take away an option, then you are restricting the available options to those remaining, thus *by definition* reducing strategic scope. Previously, one could choose whether to do a brute-force front-door entry, or whether to try to bypass a perimeter and drop in behind enemy lines - by taking away the latter option, this does NOT "expand" strategic options, it narrows them - now only the brutish frontal approach can even be entertained.

Yes, being able to jump in absolutely anywhere without error or downsides is arguably too strong - so THINK about how to BALANCE it, not just ****ing axe it! (Yes, I'm very annoyed!) Just off the top of my head: beacons (and even gates) could be handled as they are in X3AP - they are faction-owned and controlled, as is ACCESS to them. So, how is a surprise visit at the throne world prevented? Because enemies can't simply arrive! They can't lock onto the beacon. OK, so how about a "friend" turning coat, then? Ie. get a high reputation, then jump in a fleet. Again, very easy: restrict the number of military vessels that can use a beacon within a set period of time, but allow mercantile access with no limit - this does allow the player the option to try mount some sort of feeble invasion using freighters, but hey, if a player wants to try something like that, why restrict his/her options? Also, jump beacons could introduce some sort of additional costs: say, structural damage, which would put any arriving hostile (if it somehow managed to gain access - some way to circumvent security on a small scale ought to exist) at a serious disadvantage (or this could be an alternative approach to access control); or perhaps a ship jumping by beacon might be partially disabled due to energy drain/whatever other technobabble.

Among the things that, in my opinion, Rebirth DID actually improve is the universe structure. Already its tiered hierarchy places certain (in my opinion welcome) limitations on jumpdrives, especially the standard ones on capital ships. So, now that the overall balance of the JD has improved, you (Egostoft) want to remove it? I have three letters for you: W, T, and F.

Simply getting rid of the jumpdrive strikes me as brutish, inelegant, unimaginative, and downright lazy - "let's not bother solving this (imaginary, or at the most exaggerated) issue, we can just make it go away by sweeping it under the rug and pretending that it isn't there." Shame on you, Egosoft!


In addition to strategic aspects and such, I have one more (and arguably even more relevant) argument against dumping the jumpdrive: it is not only iconic within the X-lore, it is ****ing CENTRAL to it, FFS! How did the whole series start? The player, as a Terran test pilot running a trial of a new... EXPERIMENTAL JUMP DRIVE suffers a mishap and ends up John Crightoning it somewhere far far from home. Since then, jumpdrives have always been a major gameplay element, almost always being an important early-game goal and milestone that elevates the player to a new level, no longer footing it from everywhere to everyotherwhere. The whole bit with the Goners and their continuing fiddling with special jumpdrive variants (as well as always being among the few sources for the standard version of the technology) - all these things are memorable aspects of the X-story. Removing it is an implausible technological backward step at best, but more likely a total continuity-wrecker.

Seeing this talk about the JD being dropped is utterly unbelievable to me - it's like taking quad-damage out of Quake, it's like Command&Conquer without harvesters, or countless other similarly bad analogies... it utterly blows my mind. So Rebirth proved that your decision to take away the player's ability to fly any ship was a big mistake - now you want to take away yet another key iconic element? Egosoft, what are you trying to do to your franchise? I think you need to reconsider what I believe is a serious mistake.

[Santi]

No, just no. You could jump anywhere if you have the range. And tactically, a front door smashing was not viable because your Capitals ships will obliterate each other when trying to cross a Gate.

More importantly the Universe is static in the sense that you while you can attack their assets, they will only defend, never go on the offensive, so all this talk about controlling beacons and choke points is not true. Never in my thousands of hours playing X games did I have to defend a beacon or they were relevant to gameplay, just jump in with my fleet, kill everything and move on.

And if they do not find a clear solution to the balancing issues caused by Jump Drives, then it is fair that they look for alternatives. At the end of the day it is us, once we play the game, the ones that can truly say if it works or not.

[vadiolive]

so much talk about rts thing
but i wish more aspect about RPG

I its one thing realy like as i play Kenshi(go steam and find out)
about npc skills and activitys its can be more one 4x game in first person
afterall for 4x game you never going beat Distant Worlds(again steam and check out)

Create dynamic universe , still believe need more dynamic each new game whole new universe its one thing i love some XR mod you can go internet and seek for best profit route or information about universe but you cant find

in XR awalys in any game in exact 16h gameplay universe start shortage RMP
and in fews hours later economy start fall a part but awalys RMP - Drones - Plokotov Generator or fusion reactor i cant remember exact

in X3 same issue

as skills XR come with 5 star okay is fine except you npc dont improve over time? wtf? you leave pilot and manager over hours and still same noob? seminary is **** boring away to improve and since you can find 5 star npc pretty easy dont any point to hiring low ones

its other thing believe change five star or grandmaster (i awalys like 0-100 skill % as ultima online player or ranks as entropia universe player) be rare expensive and high fee but if you take newcomer / graduate (lol) and improve become more cheap to sustain and loyal (i guess somes mind blow here)

well its just my 2 cent have others point to discuss but i have faith X4 be more just one RTS/4X game with first person manager

Dont clue about lore
and Exploration is fine but think is major i expect
build and figth i feel consequence for dynamic universe

[RAVEN.myst]

No, just no. You could jump anywhere if you have the range.

So LIMIT THE RANGE, not take out the entire mechanic. In any case, the new topology of the universe already precludes this notion of "anywhere from anywhere" - for starters, are you forgetting that if you want to jump from, say, Lookout Alpha to Far Out, that's not a single jump, but THREE, with a JD cooldown period after each? And if you are in a different system, you still have to travel via potentially multiple beacon hops AND gate travels? So, in short, that "argument" is completely invalid, and out of touch with the new reality ushered in by Rebirth.

And tactically, a front door smashing was not viable because your Capitals ships will obliterate each other when trying to cross a Gate.

This is specific to how it worked in previous Xs - but we already know that X4 will be different in many aspects, so this is likely not relevant/applicable.

More importantly the Universe is static in the sense that you while you can attack their assets, they will only defend, never go on the offensive, so all this talk about controlling beacons and choke points is not true. Never in my thousands of hours playing X games did I have to defend a beacon or they were relevant to gameplay, just jump in with my fleet, kill everything and move on.

Again...
This is specific to how it worked in previous Xs - but we already know that X4 will be different in many aspects, so this is likely not relevant/applicable.
You're applying past biases to a future title, whose developers have already promised a greater level of dynamism.

Incidentally, in MY many thousands of hours of playing the previous Xs, I DID have occasions to blockade both gates and beacons (I didn't HAVE to, necessarily, but it was advantageous to do so), so I guess it's up to the imagination and the breadth of vision of a player's play-style.

And if they do not find a clear solution to the balancing issues caused by Jump Drives, then it is fair that they look for alternatives.

Fair enough - except that without even scratching my head I immediately came up with a few concepts that could help (I'm not saying they are perfect, or would work exactly as described - they would certainly have to be pondered and tweaked.) Not to mention that some of the problems are already non-issues in light of the hierarchical universe topology model, which by itself automatically solves most of the "overpoweredness" of JDs. So I utterly don't believe that there are no avenues to explore besides axing the JD and partially semi-replacing it with a teleporter (YUCK!) This is just making it look like a single-player EVE.


Lastly, for me (and I suspect many, many others), the X games have traditionally (until Rebirth) been characterised by a wealth of gameplay diversity: breadth of options, with depth to be found within the different alternatives. Making the games shallower or narrower are BOTH disservices to the audience, and a step backward. As soon as a developer starts taking away my choices, that's tantamount to directing or even dictating how I should play their game - and that's when they lose my support, and I go elsewhere. It is up to the player to decide how to limit him/herself - if someone believes that a mechanic is "too powerful" (in a non-competitive single-player game, for crying out loud!), then no one is holding a gun to that player's head forcing him/her to use that method - but to take away that tool from others who may find interesting, creative ways to apply it and thereby expand and enhance their experience (or even from those who DO want to use it as an easier way to do things) is simply WRONG.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

In X3 one of the most annoying behaviours was the following:

Take a fleet to Xenon sector 101, 347 or 472.

A) Annihilate all artificial life.

B) Hang around for a while and watch the Xenon replacements just pop into existence. Goto A.

Watch as your fleet is eventually whittled down to nothing.

So the player has to "believe" these ships are coming from other Xenon sectors, rather
than use the "cheaty" method of being instantly generated.

Fast forward to X4:

So if we remove the jump drive and also point to point jumping.
Then make the Xenon build their ships from resources at their shipyards.
It will take sometime for them to have the forces necessary to try to regain the lost sectors.

In a map like X3 they would then have to travel across many hostile sectors.
Causing on the way collateral damage but also suffering casualties.
I don't have any idea what the full map in X4 will be like, but isolated pockets like the above
sectors will be more vulnerable, and would make good candidates for sector take over.

So if the guys at EGO are playing fair, then we should not be seeing ships just pop into existence.
They will have to be properly manufactured by all NPCs. They will all have the same travel
restrictions.

[mr.WHO]

Hopefully the return of Xenon production stations (like Solar Power Plant) indicate that they will have some rudimantary economy that can be destroyed.

[Kitty]

In X3 one of the most annoying behaviours was the following:

[...]
B) Hang around for a while and watch the Xenon replacements just pop into existence. Goto A.
[...]
So the player has to "believe" these ships are coming from other Xenon sectors, rather than use the "cheaty" method of being instantly generated.
[...]
So if the guys at EGO are playing fair, then we should not be seeing ships just pop into existence.
They will have to be properly manufactured by all NPCs. They will all have the same travel
restrictions.

I respect your opinion. I just disagree.
Not about what Egosoft will do. They already explained that they build an economy like the one you describe (see Q/A).
I don't care ships popping in. I don't care that Xenon have no economy (I cannot trade with them anyway). WHat you describe is not more realistic than what is in X3. Why ? Because you neglict the planets. You really think that a 130km wide sector contain all the economy of a faction which colonized a whole planet of 15000km radius ? I think they can just launch "Army 432" while building three others. And, knowing what I know about weapons, they also could launch tons of missiles and/or use powerful planet to space lasers, or, better, use orbital platforms using very high power beam weapons from 1 Mn kilometers away of the gate and shoot every single spaceship you have in less than 30 seconds.

Thinking that way leads to frustration. Egosoft will never be realistic enough for perfectionists.

I'd rather use the game to have fun thinking, performing missions, etc, than expect a realistic space simulation which would be boring at a point you cannot imagine. An I know you have imagination.

About fairness, which is very different from realism. In X games, player cannot compare to major factions. If, late in game, you are able to erase sectors with your armies, it is not fairness. It's a feature of the game which is fun for you, but it's also a bug, as Julian Brenan is just an adventurer, not the ruler of a state. There is no symetry in this game. The player earns money much quicker than the NPCs. This is part of the fun. This is not fair for the NPC. So, if NPC have from time to time a cheat code, as long as it's fun, I'm ok. Xenon pops again and again ? Super ! I still have enemies. I don't want that the X game tells me when it is finished with a message "You win ! Game Over!". I want to decide myself.

[mr.WHO]

Sorry but this "spawn out of thin air" just break up the sandbox part of the sandbox.

Supressing the Xenon sectors in X3 was frustratting and impossible because they just outspawn you eventually.
I don't like the idea of total annihilation of the faction, because at some point player might want them to return. However if player want to have them supressed it shouldn't need a lot of effort after you defeated most of their fleets and economy - that the point an goal of late game - otherwise you don't have anything else to do with your huge fleets and massive economy.
X3 and XR late games are plain boring without faction conquest. Additionally most of player tend to stay friendly with the normal factions, therefore Xenon s are the ideal target for conquest.

For me the perfect solution would be like that:
Xenon have basic economy - they gather resources with miners to "proessing plants" and then with freighters the "ship construction parts" are ferry to their shipyards which produce the ships for patrol and invasion fleets.

Player can fight the fleets or raid their production chain to dammage their economy. After player completely destroy them then after x-hours somewhere at remote random location new Xenon shipyard is spawned with basic construction ships and miners. If they are not found they will eventually rebuild their economy. However if player will find them they should be an easy prey.

[gbjbaanb]

Seeing as this thread now needs to be renamed "the jumpdrive thread" and not anything to do with the stream I want to think about the fundamental differences between the JD and the T.

Ultimately both are to get the player into the action quicker. That's a good gameplay reason for either, but the difference between the 2 mechanisms boil down to 2 things:

1. the player must have assets at the destination rather than take his current ship
2. other ships cannot jump.

Now I get the idea of this limitation of transferring ships from A to B, but I fear it will simply reduce the AI to turtling - or worse, allowing their defences to be lured out to a far place while the player's "peaceful" force then attacks with impunity. With jumpdrives, the enemy could RRF back to give you grief.

The AI never used jumpdrives for anything else, and we want trade ships to slowly crawl to their destinations so they are nice fat targets for piracy and other gameplay fun.

So it does seem to me that the teleport isn't much of a fix for the JD, not when you could easily fix the JD with some limitations that both allow player ship jumping and AI military jumps without traders or other ships from using it.

First, could be the cost - but a rich player will stick JDs on his biggest freighters, this can easily be solved by making the fuel cost rise with mass - so a loaded freighter costs too much fuel to make jumping worthwhile. It would also make battleships think twice before jumping, but they have money to burn.

That gives the player all the ability to move around the universe without destabilising the gameplay, which I think is really what players want - they want to go from A to B as quickly as possible. The teleport is a poor substitute for this as it leave the player's main asset behind - and that main ship is what the player is going to be most comfortable in. Effectively getting rid of it and making the player use whatever ship happens to be available is not going to make people happy or feel cosy. I think that is a good enough reason in itself for not replacing JD with T.

If you do want the player to travel to distant places for temporary battles or solving problems, the T would be better changed to be a subspace drone command - so the player could take over control of a ship far far away without leaving his current position. Whether that's direct control of an escort fighter or a hologram on the bridge doesn't really matter. I think players would be happier with that mechanism.

one thing I would miss from not having a JD is missions though, the times I bumped into someone wanting a passenger transport - so I jump in my TP, do the mission with my player ship as escort and then leave the TP until its needed will no longer be realistically possible, not unless the passenger is prepared to wait for the TP to arrive, or I set up a dedicated taxi service everywhere. I'm not sure that's better gameplay than the old way.

so anyway, I liked JD, I think its a mistake to remove it. I think the teleport could be improved a little and is a welcome addition to the game, but not a replacement for the JD.

[GCU Grey Area]

That gives the player all the ability to move around the universe without destabilising the gameplay, which I think is really what players want - they want to go from A to B as quickly as possible.

That may be your preference, but don't assume everyone else agrees with you - I certainly don't. I'm fine with taking my time to fly around the universe.

The teleport is a poor substitute for this as it leave the player's main asset behind - and that main ship is what the player is going to be most comfortable in. Effectively getting rid of it and making the player use whatever ship happens to be available is not going to make people happy or feel cosy.

Easy fix - use whatever ship you feel comfortable in as your primary choice for escort duties for your freighters & for guarding stations - remember you will have control over "whatever ship happens to be available".