[MOD] Miscellaneous OOZ Combat Tweaks

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 12:45

Essentially, I am. But I want to get a cross-section, with different set-ups (different skills, drone load-outs, positions) so made all pirates Marauding Taranis. First step was Taranis versus different targets. Second was Taranis vs Arawns and Fulmekrons. Next step is to make all pirates Marauding Fulmekrons, and try to pick a fight with them using my Taranis squad.

edit: fine, ok. Also because it's more fun this way. MICT Marauding Fulmekrons, here we go!

Post by **UniTrader** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 12:54

If you need a test environment have a look through my github repositories - one of them is called XFleetFest and basically creates a battle between two fleets in an otherwise empty Universe (their composition is customizeable by editing a few lists)
this mod may need a bit updating though because it was written in 2.5 (and also needs to be a bit customized to use the MCT scripts instead of the vanilla ones)
would provide a link but I am on the phone and pasting them here is a bit cumbersome

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 12:56

Thanks, Uni, but just prefer "field" data to lab set-ups. Plus, edit above. Hihi.

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 13:13

Preliminary data coming in. Non-MICT Taranis are wiping the floor with MICT Fulmekrons.

RAW DAMAGE

Taranis - ~92,882.266
Fulmekron - ~22,415.553

This is somewhat mitigated by the MICT Fulmekrons actively maneouvering with the speed penalty, but the Taranises are at a distinct skill disadvantage, and are still kicking arse.

MODIFIED DAMAGE

Taranis - ~51,885.777
Fulmekron - ~20,079.313

No analysis yet, though. Just a spot check. Damage spikes or other glitches weren't involved in this particular exchange, though. Numbers change a little bit, but not by much. Deviation so far looks like it's less than +/- 20,000

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 13:40

Did another check with all mods removed except just the logging stuff and the modified jobs file to make lots of marauding fulmekrons:

Spot-check, damage dealt:

Taranis - 457,319.5
Fulmekron - 76,394.711

At first, I thought that the Fulmekron was finally doing more damage and I might have screwed something up in MOCT, but didn't realize until I wrote it down that the Taranis was doing 6 digit-damage per salvo.

Deviation is higher of course, because of the bigger raw numbers, but nowhere near +/- 100,000

Scoob · Post by **Scoob** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 13:58

I'll be most interested to see the results of your analysis on this. I had no doubt that Taranis were regularly hammering my Fulmekron OOZ, while the reverse was true IZ, it's good to see raw numbers backing that up though.

Hopefully you're able to further tweak OOZ balance to give the Fulmekron more realistic OOZ performance. I wonder what particular stat makes the difference? Fulmekrons basically have upper and lower surface mounted weapons, which have a good arc allowing for excellent fire in most directions. Ship is weaker at the rear due to its shape, so the coverage is reduced, plus a small fighter dead centre horizontally might fall in another blind spot when left, right or in front of the ship.

It seems that it's the Taranis that's the anomaly putting out insane damage, or is the Fulmekron just very weak OOZ? Some Arawn vs. Taranis and Arawn vs. Fulmekron data might be interesting.

The Fulmekron was added to the game later, so I wonder if there's something different about it? How do Taranis do vs. "original" ships such as Suls? I know my own Taranis eats Titurels and the Sennin variants added by CWIR easily OOZ, where an IZ fight would see it likely winning, but suffering a lot of damage.

OOZ, one of the things I noticed most when my Fulmekron was vs. a PMC Taranis is how the shield was gone instantly, then I was loosing 20 surface elements every couple of seconds as the hull went down.

Anyway, rambling a bit...supposed to be doing other stuff! lol.

Ooo, saw your new post...those numbers are beyond insane!!

Just had a thought.... In an older version of BlackRains WWX Mod, I'd see an earlier version of his "Sennin Frigate Besieger" - equipped with 9 HIV turrets - totally eat my Arawn (different game start) AND Taranis OOZ. Not sure what BR changed, or if it's my addition of MOCT/MICT but these ships are far less troublesome OOZ now, though they still hit hard.

Scoob.

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 14:14

Still running the vanilla test. Arawns are doing a respectable ~615,200 damage vs Fulmekron, which is about right in relation to the Taranis' damage, I think. Fulmekron - around 75,200 vs Arawn.

Also spotted a Taranis doing 16,588.02 vs Fulmekron, but that could be due to lost turrets. Looks like they've been at it for a while.

But looks like the Fulmekron has a huge disadvantage OOZ. Apologies to xrook, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same problem that you noticed with the Olmekron.

I think that it might be the vanilla size and speed parameters. Ended up not touching those, but they make smaller/faster entities do more damage OOZ. (Wanted a damage penalty rather than a bonus.) Haven't seen an Arawn and a Fulmekron side-by-side before. Is the Fulmekron much (double or above) bigger? I don't think that an Arawn is much faster than the Fulmekron, so I'm leaning towards the size parameter.

Could also be turret lay-out, but I hope not. Not much we can do about that.

edit: a bit more on turret lay-out OOZ. It looks like it's calculated as if the turrets were pointing straight out relative to the hull. For example, the Suls have top mounted turrets that have pretty good arcs around the sides IZ, but OOZ, their right and left dps outputs zero.

edit 2: just checked, the quadrant info for the Fulmekrons have their targets distinctly above or below them, so top and bottom-mounted turrets ought to already be in play.

Post by **Sparky Sparkycorp** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 14:29

Scoob wrote: Just had a thought.... In an older version of BlackRains WWX Mod, I'd see an earlier version of his "Sennin Frigate Besieger" - equipped with 9 HIV turrets - totally eat my Arawn (different game start) AND Taranis OOZ. Not sure what BR changed, or if it's my addition of MOCT/MICT but these ships are far less troublesome OOZ now, though they still hit hard.

IIRC, BR reduced the Sennin Frigate's speed quite a bit.

w.evans wrote: Is the Fulmekron much (double or above) bigger? I don't think that an Arawn is much faster than the Fulmekron, so I'm leaning towards the size parameter.

From memory, yes I think it is is quite a bit bigger.

w.evans wrote: edit 2: just checked, the quadrant info for the Fulmekrons have their targets distinctly above or below them, so top and bottom-mounted turrets ought to already be in play.

Yeah, their JETs are on top and bottom surfaces IZ. Do you mean the JETs only shoot up and down OOZ? With ships often being dispersed in the other dimensions too, that could be a problem for balance.

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 14:35

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:Yeah, their JETs are on top and bottom surfaces IZ. Do you mean the JETs only shoot up and down OOZ? With ships often being dispersed in the other dimensions too, that could be a problem for balance.

Not exactly, and I forgot a small but important bit. Top mounted turrets register as being able to hit up, but not right, left, front, or wherever else. However, a target can be both up and right, in which case it will still hit. Doesn't have to be directly above.

Looks like lowering the size cap did the trick. Getting better numbers, or at least ones that are easier to believe. Will pretty much remove the effect of relative size so a fighter and a station would register as having the same size for purposes of OOZ calculations, however. Speed penalty might be enough to compensate.

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 14:43

How's this?

RAW DAMAGE (before modifiers):

Taranis v Fulmekron - 10,743.347
Fulmekron v Taranis - 10,526.783

MODIFIED DAMAGE:

Taranis v Fulmekron - 6,252.628
Fulmekron v Taranis - 9,480.337

Fulmekron's a MICT ship, so it's moving more, and has a top-level crew. Fulmekron didn't have drones. Taranis is PMC non-MICT with 15 drones.

Post by **Sparky Sparkycorp** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 14:51

When capitals are able to target surface elements, fighters lose an advantage. Seems a bit of a shame for Fighters to lose a protection too. Would it be possible to set ranges, such as if less than size of XL capitals, then scale down by size?

On a separate note, would it be possible to to adjust half of a Mekron's JETs to be designated as forward instead of up/down? Not sure if that would be an improvement or not, just wondering if possible at this point.

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 14:58

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:When capitals are able to target surface elements, fighters lose an advantage. Seems a bit of a shame for Fighters to lose a protection too. Would it be possible to set ranges, such as if less than size of XL capitals, then scale down by size?

Not possible with the parameters that Ego gave us. At least, none that I know of. Could write a separate size modifier same as the thing I did with relative speed, but I think the speed modifier should have fighters covered.

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:On a separate note, would it be possible to to adjust half of a Mekron's JETs to be designated as forward instead of up/down? Not sure if that would be an improvement or not, just wondering if possible at this point.

Been looking for this, but haven't found it. Best guess at the moment is that it depends on where the turrets are actually mounted on the model. If so, will require model editing, which could make the -mekrons suck IZ since those top and bottom mounted turrets give it great coverage on the sides and front.

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 15:30

This is with MOCT, with the maxsize Ego parameter dropped down to 50 (from 500), and max speed penalty increased to 80% (It's 40% in the released version):

Code: Select all

ATTACKER                            DEFENDER                            RANGE       QUADRANT    AttStr(Raw) AttStr(Mod)
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        HV Marauder Fulmekron               5034        BRC         10743.347   6252.628
MICT Ship HV Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        4886        FLD         10526.783   9480.337
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        HV Marauder Fulmekron               5080        BCD         10743.347   5994.787
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         6167        FLU         10659.894   3699.894
PMC Taranis                         SS Marauder Fulmekron               6273        BRD         9959.347    5915.852
PMC Taranis                         SS Marauder Fulmekron               6550        BRD         9959.347    5915.852
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     CV/H 04 - Arawn                     3345.5      FRU         7740.101    6501.685
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         6217        FLU         10659.894   3259.369
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               10170       BLD         1372        872.592 
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               8774        BLD         2940        1675.8  
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               9658        BRU         0           0       
PMC Taranis                         SS Marauder Fulmekron               7498        BRD         9959.347    5915.852
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               3604        FLD         12023.71    7286.369
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         6210        FLU         9037.082    2763.178
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        8398        ---         0           0       
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               914         FLD         14681.165   8896.786
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               1067.5      FLD         14681.165   8896.786
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               1240.25     FLD         14681.165   8896.786
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               7816        BRD         8783.347    5586.209
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               1358.5      FLD         14681.165   8896.786
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               7798        BRD         8783.347    5586.209
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               1530        FLD         14681.165   8896.786
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               7780        BRD         8783.347    5586.209
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               1802        FLD         14681.165   8896.786
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               1888        FLD         14681.165   3784.083
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         5629        FLU         9121.717    3577.835
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               7708        BRD         8783.347    5586.209
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         3256        FLU         12904.92    3945.808

Comments?

edit: took out drone, DO Skill, and target shields/hull because made the table hard to read. Some of the change is due to diminishing drone numbers.

Post by **BlackRain** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 15:33

Maybe I am not reading it right but it looks like the Taranis is destroying the Fulmekron?

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 15:58

Hm, that's right, didn't notice. Was distracted by two Fulmekrons that spawned in-zone. Called in my Taranis squad. Was fun.

Here's the data that didn't fit:

Code: Select all

ATTACKER                            DEFENDER                            AttStr(Mod) Drones      DO Skill    TargShld    TargHull
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        HV Marauder Fulmekron               6252.628    17          57          1176437.5   8400000
MICT Ship HV Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        9480.337    0           100         1765257.25  2100000
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        HV Marauder Fulmekron               5994.787    17          53          403505.344  8400000
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         3699.894    0           100         1787357.75  2100000
PMC Taranis                         SS Marauder Fulmekron               5915.852    13          59          1187257.125 8400000
PMC Taranis                         SS Marauder Fulmekron               5915.852    13          59          1155885.25  8400000
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     CV/H 04 - Arawn                     6501.685    0           100         3584245.25  5999792
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         3259.369    0           100         1792208.125 2100000
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               872.592     7           66          0           6093112
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               1675.8      15          55          1190349.625 8400000
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               0           0           48          0           3504284
PMC Taranis                         SS Marauder Fulmekron               5915.852    13          59          0           5820979
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               7286.369    16          61          0           3311637.25
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         2763.178    0           100         1794119.25  2100000
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        0           0           100         1800000     2100000
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               8896.786    16          61          0           787121.5
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               8896.786    16          61          0           709224.375
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               8896.786    16          61          0           576546.063
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               5586.209    7           66          0           487445.594
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               8896.786    16          61          0           470328.344
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               5586.209    7           66          0           383602.688
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               8896.786    16          61          0           324098.219
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               5586.209    7           66          0           259811.141
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               8896.786    16          61          0           185203.25
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               3784.083    16          61          0           140216.063
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         3577.835    0           100         1530716.375 2100000
PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis        SS Marauder Fulmekron               5586.209    7           66          0           85132.656
MICT Ship SS Marauder Fulmekron     PMC Taranis                         3945.808    0           100         1786680.875 2100000

edit: from that jump in shielding, looks like there were other ships there, possibly a station.

edit 2: and at least 2 Taranis (PMC Warden Destroyer Taranis and PMC Taranis)

Scoob · Post by **Scoob** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 15:58

BlackRain wrote:Maybe I am not reading it right but it looks like the Taranis is destroying the Fulmekron?

Looks that way to me too!

Scoob.

Post by **BlackRain** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 16:31

Started a new game and got bombarded with these errors

Code: Select all

[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x1f6fc: Property lookup failed: global.$MICT_LR_Ships
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships}
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x1f6fc: Property lookup failed: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{null}
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships}
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x73a3: Property lookup failed: global.$MICT_LR_Ships
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships} and ($target.isclass.{class.ship_l} or $target.isclass.{class.ship_xl} or $target.isclass.{class.station} or @$target.container.isclass.{class.station})
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x73a3: Property lookup failed: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{null}
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships} and ($target.isclass.{class.ship_l} or $target.isclass.{class.ship_xl} or $target.isclass.{class.station} or @$target.container.isclass.{class.station})
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x73a3: Property lookup failed: global.$MICT_LR_Ships
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships} and not $issmall
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x73a3: Property lookup failed: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{null}
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships} and not $issmall
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x73a3: Property lookup failed: global.$MICT_LR_Ships
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships}
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x73a3: Property lookup failed: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{null}
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships}
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x1f6fc: Property lookup failed: global.$MICT_LR_Ships
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships} and ($target.isclass.{class.ship_l} or $target.isclass.{class.ship_xl} or $target.isclass.{class.station} or @$target.container.isclass.{class.station})
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x1f6fc: Property lookup failed: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{null}
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships} and ($target.isclass.{class.ship_l} or $target.isclass.{class.ship_xl} or $target.isclass.{class.station} or @$target.container.isclass.{class.station})
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x1f6fc: Property lookup failed: global.$MICT_LR_Ships
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships} and not $issmall
[General] ======================================
[General] ======================================
[=ERROR=] Error in AI script MICT.move.attack.object.capital on entity 0x1f6fc: Property lookup failed: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{null}
* Expression: this.ship.macro.ismacro.{global.$MICT_LR_Ships} and not $issmall
[General] ======================================

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 16:47

Are LR ships flying LR? If they are, then it shouldn't be a problem. If they aren't, then it might require a save-reload, and my md file needs a tweak.

Post by **BlackRain** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 16:54

w.evans wrote:Are LR ships flying LR? If they are, then it shouldn't be a problem. If they aren't, then it might require a save-reload, and my md file needs a tweak.

Don't know, just started a new game and got all of those and more

w.evans · Post by **w.evans** » Mon, 24. Aug 15, 17:46

BlackRain wrote:
w.evans wrote:Are LR ships flying LR? If they are, then it shouldn't be a problem. If they aren't, then it might require a save-reload, and my md file needs a tweak.
Don't know, just started a new game and got all of those and more

Yup, have to switch conditions, sorry. My mistake. Will switch to the one Uni suggested since md.Setup.GameStart of course always appears to fire both at game start, and at game load.

In the meantime, save-load should clear them up until I get to upload the update. Worst case before save-load (before the update), LR ships fly like everyone else.

ps. Does that look like a good balance between the Taranis and the Fulmekron? Of course, the Fulmekron is getting killed in that example (and looks like there are more than one, judging from the DO skills and jumps in shield damage, and I don't know what else is in play there since I was filtering for Fulmekrons fighting Arawns or Taranis), but the damage output?

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

[MOD] Miscellaneous OOZ Combat Tweaks