[MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 4.x

[ScandyNav]

... but Xenon are getting out of control. Looking for suggestions, either in-game or with light modding to push them back.
Patch 3.1, Important other mods being used:
FWEE
FOCW, with most xenon jobs disabled in the options file. If I understand correctly, only main race jobs should be up.
RoR, with VRO patch.
XR Ship Pack, with VRO patch.
DeadAir's Dynamic Wars, Station Fill, and Wares.

You can tweak FOCW to only main races receive additional fleets.
You can tweak Fill script to disable Xenon shipyards resource catch up.
And overall, my opinion that fill scripts mostly harm the game. The game designed to have shortages and demand. Fill scripts should be used when you want to rescue any faction or Xenon.

P.S. Why ppl want to use both XR Ship pack and RoR ?

[sco1981]

P.S. Why ppl want to use both XR Ship pack and RoR ?

Hmm, because they do not provide the same stuff?

[Scoob]

Hi,

I have a query regarding the ARG PPC L-Class Turret. It's VERY inaccurate. At under 8km (7.2km to be exact) against a stationary Xenon K, the PPC shots from my Taranis are missing more times than they're hitting. I'm all for larger, high-damage turrets to suffer an accuracy penalty, that makes sense, but these things are waaaay off target 70 - 80% of the time against a large target. Combined with their low rate of fire, it's a bit crazy when my Light Destroyer - Incarcatura Raider - is doing more damage with it's Flak Artillery Array Turrets than the PPC's on the Taranis, purely due to their near 100% hit rate.

Note: perhaps there are some other factors at play, vanilla turrets are sometimes woefully inaccurate, even with an otherwise accurate (good shot speed and tracking rate) turret. The Hunter Turrets on my Osprey for example, are often wildly off-target with the first couple of shots, before starting to track properly - even against large targets. Perhaps that's the issue with the PPC's here, but their low fire rate exaggerates the issue?

I finally got myself some of the larger ships in the XR Ship Pack - Arawn and Taranis, my two favourites from XR - but their Large Turrets aren't performing quite as well as expected.

Scoob.

[Shuulo]

First couple of shots will always miss, as thats how vanilla turrets behave, they start shooting before fully facing the target.
PPCs actually have a very good accuracy comparing with other turrets, its just the vanilla turret behavior and long reload make it look not that much. VS stationary targets or something like I or other battleships its still much more superior than other turrets.

[Scoob]

Yeah, that's what I was alluding to when I mentioned how the Hunter Turrets on my Osprey behave - first couple of shots consistently missing. PPC's on the other hand seem to miss constantly, until, seemingly randomly, they'll suddenly be great. You expect them to not be perfect when both ships are manoeuvring, and changing speed. The issue is most obvious when both ships are stationary, or flying along a straight path. It's like it's not even trying to point at the target ship - and not just for the first couple of shots.

I'm sure it's a vanilla issue, now you've said that PPC's are coded to be quite accurate, it's just frustrating to have some really heavily armed ships - set up for Xenon K killing - yet they miss all the time. I'll see if things improve as my Captains get better.

Scoob.

[maseren]

Missiles and torpedoes for fighters and bombers on your carriers, are they worth it?

Absolutely. They're the only reason to field a carrier. Use Flak AA/CIWS for anti-fighter and heavy missiles for anti-capship. Ignore the light missiles, they're crap, you want to get the biggest AOE (pronounced "owie!") on the cheapest boats you can fit.

In the player's hands, they're even deadlier. I was able to solo the FRF start in my dragon, A Moment Of Your Time, through liberal abuse of missiles and the flight assist toggle. Four starburst missiles and a hit from my heavy guns could take out a dragon or cobra in one pass without ever leaving travel mode. After getting good at playing chicken with rattlesnakes by dying a whole bunch, landing a salvo of hornets at close range would completely strip their turrets, letting me sidle up for some intimate moments while my boarding ships travelled over, just like old times.

Of course, then the FRF sectors were completely undefended against the Xenon and I've been playing police ever since because they don't start making any military until after you make a giant fleet for them, so in retrospect I probably should have waited until I had 200 million or so in the bank, but hey, it could be done.

This is awesome info! thanks man. So question, does the AI safely choose missiles and torpedoes, or do i have to go and assign this stuff?? I remember jumping in to one of the bombers and no missiles where picked, although they had them. Thanks again!

Also, with VRO, are flak that good, so that i don;t miss i have been aiming FAR more on beam weapons, cyclones, lancers etc..

[Phiolin]

I did not have much luck with fighters and heavy missiles. Tried to fit a couple of Peregrine Vanguards with Torpedo MK2 launchers as bombers, but they never fire them.
Tried Eclipse with some launchers next, same result.

Not sure if that is because their attack runs are not long enough to get a lock on the target?

Just to add: Rattlesnake with L Tracking MK1 turrets and Hammerheads - regardless of what I set the turrets to, attack capital ships, attack all enemies, attack current enemy... no missiles being fired.
So missiles are so unreliable/broken for me, I don't even think about equipping ships with them anymore.

[Rolgar08]

I did not have much luck with fighters and heavy missiles. Tried to fit a couple of Peregrine Vanguards with Torpedo MK2 launchers as bombers, but they never fire them.
Tried Eclipse with some launchers next, same result.

Not sure if that is because their attack runs are not long enough to get a lock on the target?

Just to add: Rattlesnake with L Tracking MK1 turrets and Hammerheads - regardless of what I set the turrets to, attack capital ships, attack all enemies, attack current enemy... no missiles being fired.
So missiles are so unreliable/broken for me, I don't even think about equipping ships with them anymore.

I wanted to have "Bombers" (S-size spacecraft with torpedo launchers) on my carriers for attacks on stations and capitals. After testing a couple of loadouts I ended with the Jaguar that only has one weapon slot and can mount a torpedo launcher there. I had the impression that the AI is underutilizing the torpedoes in case it has alternatives. Now with the Jaguars the "Bomb runs" are working. I haven't used launcher turrets on capitals.

[Meme Turtle]

Is Rattlesnake supposed to have 2 shields? Feels a bit OP with 8L weapons, 2 shields and lots of hull.

I am also having trouble ships using missiles successfully. I have buzzards with 2 cyclic ray and tracked missile launcher, and while rays shreds any S craft missiles are rarely used. I am not even sure they hit targets due to flares. Cruise missiles are also quite useless. AI is not utilizing their range and likes to close in and their DPS is lower than other weapons.

As for PPC I have noticed that AI likes to start firing before the weapon is fully aligned. Which is always the case as it approaches the target in travel mode and turret is still rotating. This results in loss of overall DPS due to the weapon low fire rate. Tri-cannon and mass driver are much better. I suggest increasing PPC ROF while maintaining DPS.

[Shuulo]

Is Rattlesnake supposed to have 2 shields? Feels a bit OP with 8L weapons, 2 shields and lots of hull.

In vanilla it had 2 more L turrets, so i replaced them with 1 L shield

[Derp]

shots from my Taranis are missing

Do the turrets have a consistently clear view? The Taranis's L turrets are in the back, easily blocked by the hull. If you're manoeuvring around and only sometimes there's a target your turrets will spend their time waving in the general direction of the enemy instead of lining up a shot. The Incarcatua's turrets are neatly lined up on top and front, so all it needs to do is get below the enemy to have them all function.

[Meme Turtle]

Is Rattlesnake supposed to have 2 shields? Feels a bit OP with 8L weapons, 2 shields and lots of hull.

In vanilla it had 2 more L turrets, so i replaced them with 1 L shield

It has effective hp(shield+hull) to that of a Behemoth and firepower of a battleship. With proper shields it just makes every other destroyer obsolete.

Speaking of shields, is it normal that Paranid excel at S shields and Argon at M shields? The Paranid one has more capacity than Teladi's and Argon M shield has recharge rate similar to Paranid while capacity is just 10% lower than Teladi.
Split shields are just universally bad. There is no real reason to use them. Maybe up their recharge rate to compensate?

[maseren]

Is Rattlesnake supposed to have 2 shields? Feels a bit OP with 8L weapons, 2 shields and lots of hull.

In vanilla it had 2 more L turrets, so i replaced them with 1 L shield

It has effective hp(shield+hull) to that of a Behemoth and firepower of a battleship. With proper shields it just makes every other destroyer obsolete.

Speaking of shields, is it normal that Paranid excel at S shields and Argon at M shields? The Paranid one has more capacity than Teladi's and Argon M shield has recharge rate similar to Paranid while capacity is just 10% lower than Teladi.
Split shields are just universally bad. There is no real reason to use them. Maybe up their recharge rate to compensate?

I understand that people are going back and forth on the Rattlesnake discussion, but it is very obvious that Egosoft intended to have players, that are rich be able to make such a devastating ship if they could afford it. I mean at 60mil fully decked out, its no joke cost. Personally, i understand why Shuulo did what he did, but at the same time, players need a relatively decent answer to the I. Currently, to take down an I, i need 3-4 ships, if i intend not to loose any, by the way, this is WITH XR ships as well. The carriers are costing me 100mil each so, i don't mind the idea that if i can afford to buy it, then i deserve it, besides that's "end" game. As things stand, i am JUST holding, by blocking off the Xenon in their areas. Defense platforms with 180+ guns, taking foever.

That said, still love all you do Shuulo, this isn't a dig on your mod at all.

[Lord Dakier]

Is Rattlesnake supposed to have 2 shields? Feels a bit OP with 8L weapons, 2 shields and lots of hull.

In vanilla it had 2 more L turrets, so i replaced them with 1 L shield

It has effective hp(shield+hull) to that of a Behemoth and firepower of a battleship. With proper shields it just makes every other destroyer obsolete.

Speaking of shields, is it normal that Paranid excel at S shields and Argon at M shields? The Paranid one has more capacity than Teladi's and Argon M shield has recharge rate similar to Paranid while capacity is just 10% lower than Teladi.
Split shields are just universally bad. There is no real reason to use them. Maybe up their recharge rate to compensate?

Split don't care much for shields. Their philosophy is you don't take damage from something if its dead which is why they have so much firepower, not to mention fighter speed is remarkably better than most which means shields aren't being used as much.

[Shuulo]

It has effective hp(shield+hull) to that of a Behemoth and firepower of a battleship. With proper shields it just makes every other destroyer obsolete.

Speaking of shields, is it normal that Paranid excel at S shields and Argon at M shields? The Paranid one has more capacity than Teladi's and Argon M shield has recharge rate similar to Paranid while capacity is just 10% lower than Teladi.
Split shields are just universally bad. There is no real reason to use them. Maybe up their recharge rate to compensate?

Its also twice as more expensive as Behemoth Sentinel, so 1 rattlesnake vs 2 behemoth is balanced, same number of turrets and weapons but behemothes have more HP, Rattlesnake is really "all eggs in one basket" thing.

Teladi M shields are still better and cheaper then argons.

VRO takes costs in consideration as well, so straight parameters comparison will not show full balance.

[maseren]

It has effective hp(shield+hull) to that of a Behemoth and firepower of a battleship. With proper shields it just makes every other destroyer obsolete.

Speaking of shields, is it normal that Paranid excel at S shields and Argon at M shields? The Paranid one has more capacity than Teladi's and Argon M shield has recharge rate similar to Paranid while capacity is just 10% lower than Teladi.
Split shields are just universally bad. There is no real reason to use them. Maybe up their recharge rate to compensate?

Its also twice as more expensive as Behemoth Sentinel, so 1 rattlesnake vs 2 behemoth is balanced, same number of turrets and weapons but behemothes have more HP, Rattlesnake is really "all eggs in one basket" thing.

Teladi M shields are still better and cheaper then argons.

VRO takes costs in consideration as well, so straight parameters comparison will not show full balance.

Hi Shuulo, looking great from my standpoint. I like that the rattlesnake doesn't get destroyed quickly. There is so much credits around damn it! i don't want to have to replace one, besides, damned other races are ALWAYS out of resources.

[Drewgamer]

Don't forget, balancing for the races is between eachother. Split may have good hull, but their shields are bad (and they will not use shields from other races).

If the Player wants to be OP and mix/match different races' components to min/max their ships that is on the Player, not Shuulo's balancing

[Meme Turtle]

It has effective hp(shield+hull) to that of a Behemoth and firepower of a battleship. With proper shields it just makes every other destroyer obsolete.

Speaking of shields, is it normal that Paranid excel at S shields and Argon at M shields? The Paranid one has more capacity than Teladi's and Argon M shield has recharge rate similar to Paranid while capacity is just 10% lower than Teladi.
Split shields are just universally bad. There is no real reason to use them. Maybe up their recharge rate to compensate?

Its also twice as more expensive as Behemoth Sentinel, so 1 rattlesnake vs 2 behemoth is balanced, same number of turrets and weapons but behemothes have more HP, Rattlesnake is really "all eggs in one basket" thing.

Teladi M shields are still better and cheaper then argons.

VRO takes costs in consideration as well, so straight parameters comparison will not show full balance.

I too thought that cost is the main balancing factor until I transitioned into the late game and started using Paranid and Split ships. While it is important there are two things worth noting:

• Snowball effect. You can kill a ship/station with one cap ship(concentrate money in one asset) or a fighter wing(spread out money across assets). With a fighter wing you are mostly going to take loses and lose money where as with a cap ship you are going to take damage but not lose the cap ship and repairs are free. Which is why huge OP ships are much better than the equal amount of low tech ships in terms of money spent. Especially in 3.0 since shield rework for cap ships.
• AI factions have a similar composition of their fleets. Almost identical number of destroyers/cap ships in a combat group. The number of group is different and determined by economy size but battle group composition is the same. So, in a fleet vs fleet battle the one with better ships wins.

Because of these factors I go all in on most OP cap ships like Rattlesnake and Executioner and rarely ever take any loses. If I were to use Behemoths in contrast I would still win my battles but have to rebuild lost ships much more often.

Basically, imagine an enemy asset costing X money. You can spend 2X on multiple cheaper assets and take some losses or spend 2X on a single better asset and not take any loses.

[maseren]

It has effective hp(shield+hull) to that of a Behemoth and firepower of a battleship. With proper shields it just makes every other destroyer obsolete.

Speaking of shields, is it normal that Paranid excel at S shields and Argon at M shields? The Paranid one has more capacity than Teladi's and Argon M shield has recharge rate similar to Paranid while capacity is just 10% lower than Teladi.
Split shields are just universally bad. There is no real reason to use them. Maybe up their recharge rate to compensate?

Its also twice as more expensive as Behemoth Sentinel, so 1 rattlesnake vs 2 behemoth is balanced, same number of turrets and weapons but behemothes have more HP, Rattlesnake is really "all eggs in one basket" thing.

Teladi M shields are still better and cheaper then argons.

VRO takes costs in consideration as well, so straight parameters comparison will not show full balance.

I too thought that cost is the main balancing factor until I transitioned into the late game and started using Paranid and Split ships. While it is important there are two things worth noting:

• Snowball effect. You can kill a ship/station with one cap ship(concentrate money in one asset) or a fighter wing(spread out money across assets). With a fighter wing you are mostly going to take loses and lose money where as with a cap ship you are going to take damage but not lose the cap ship and repairs are free. Which is why huge OP ships are much better than the equal amount of low tech ships in terms of money spent. Especially in 3.0 since shield rework for cap ships.
• AI factions have a similar composition of their fleets. Almost identical number of destroyers/cap ships in a combat group. The number of group is different and determined by economy size but battle group composition is the same. So, in a fleet vs fleet battle the one with better ships wins.

Because of these factors I go all in on most OP cap ships like Rattlesnake and Executioner and rarely ever take any loses. If I were to use Behemoths in contrast I would still win my battles but have to rebuild lost ships much more often.

Basically, imagine an enemy asset costing X money. You can spend 2X on multiple cheaper assets and take some losses or spend 2X on a single better asset and not take any loses.

Games will always have loop holes. Bottom line, we are better than the AI, will always be.

[Scoob]

Hey all,

I use VRO with the XR Ship Pack and Faction War / Economy Enhancer. One of the new ship - not listed as part of the XR Ship Pack - is the Destroyer-Class Incarcatura Raider. This is a fairly light destroyer based on the Freighter. In my game it's equipped in an Anti-Fighter role, using Large Flak Artillery Arrays and CWIS. In-sector it absolutely dominates even fairly large fighter groups. OOS however, it can't even handle a single Xenon P at times.

I just noticed mine was engaged with a single Xenon P and thought no more of it. Watching the fight however the Destroyer's shields are low and it's lost half its hull. I'm having to send a Monitor over for fire support and repairs.

What could be causing such a huge imbalance between In and Out of Sector combat here? Generally, things aren't too bad in that regard, this particular ship, with this particular load-out seems to be an exception. This isn't the first time a small group of Fighters has given this ship a hard time OOS. Teleporting in sees it dominate.

Scoob.