Old Steam Poll posts split and 'archived'

[the old one]

just a thought,instead of steam why dont egosft make regestration compulsorie and you get a disc wth a green tick to active the game and it would let every one no you have bought the game,but then again it might be just a daft idea, the old one

[VincentTH]

just a thought,instead of steam why dont egosft make regestration compulsorie and you get a disc wth a green tick to active the game and it would let every one no you have bought the game,but then again it might be just a daft idea, the old one

It's not egosoft who decide, it's the publisher Koch Media/Deep Silver in this case. Just like when you write a book and want to publish it, you are at the merci of the publisher.

The only way out of this dilemma, is for Egosoft to find a 2nd publisher for the game, ** cough GamersGate cough **

[Asmodae]

@Asmodae

I have to take issue with your portrayal of the pro-steam arguments. Especially in my case.

I argue for ease of use, of course. But I also made several valid arguments about Steam's overall contribution to PC gaming. Specifically, that it has provided an excellent outlet for smaller, independent game studios and even one-man teams to release their work and gain exposure in an environment that until recently only counted 'AAA' titles as having any value.

The fact that games like Bastion, Orcs Must Die, Hard Reset, Sanctum, Braid and countless others got a chance to shine and make returns for their dev teams is not something that I'd shunt aside when discussing the benefits of a delivery platform like Steam.

Sticking to a boxed game only environment would never allow that to happen.

Agreed, however, those benefits are not unique to Steam so are not strictly pro-steam arguments. The internet is what grants those benefits, and developers choose among the plethora of options available to them. (e.g. The humble indie bundle, GOG-like the witcher, impulse, D2D, or custom-like minecraft etc.)

[Slashman]

At the very least, I do agree that the modding system needs to be changed.

If a primary selling point of X is the ability to mod, that should be made as easy to do as possible.

When I ran my first TC mod, I was rather surprised to see that the option was to select mod package(singular). Odd since people on the forums were constantly talking about running mods together.

In Oblivion, I just drop in my mod files and select from a list which ones I want to run. I don't have to create fake patches(which seems to be a rather annoying thing to do although I have yet to try it).

[A5PECT]

In Oblivion, I just drop in my mod files and select from a list which ones I want to run. I don't have to create fake patches(which seems to be a rather annoying thing to do although I have yet to try it).

Actually, mod managers in Oblivion (and Fallout 3/NV) are all third-party. Oblivion/Fallout 3/New Vegas have proprietary mod managers, but they... suck.

So if you're having trouble running multiple mods in Terran Conflict blame Cycrow.

Except even the third-party mod managers for Oblivion have trouble with patches and mods overwriting each other. Admittedly they are much, much less severe than Terran Conflict. Having personal experience with modding both Fallout 3 and Terran Conflict, I'd say Egosoft has a lot of room to improve in the modding department when it comes to ease-of-use. The problem is rooted in the way the games are designed to integrate mods, rather than on the user's end.

So yes, players would definitely benefit from Egosoft putting more effort into third-party mod infrastructure. But that has almost nothing to do with Steam...

[apricotslice]

In Oblivion, I just drop in my mod files and select from a list which ones I want to run. I don't have to create fake patches(which seems to be a rather annoying thing to do although I have yet to try it).

Its the same for X3 and TC. You get a list of mods to choose from, but you can only run one of them at a time.

Hence the false patch method of running as many as you want all at the same time.

The trouble is, and why it only runs one mod at a time, is that many of the mods use the same files, and thus conflict.

However, the false patch method allows many to co-exist. The games used the last found of each file in the false patches. Then it overrides these with anything in the selected mod. Then it overrides the mod with any file found in the folder structure.

So you can have 10+ mods running at the same time, some of them conflicting badly, and still have a functional game, albiet pretty unique.

But the order you add them becomes critical as to which features in which mod actually get into the game.

So the system works, and works a damn sight better than it aught to.

But it wont allow autodownload of patches, and that is a major fly in this ointment.

[TrueSanity]

Cool, good to hear that the method you suggest works - it's little tips like this that might allow us to retain our modded game version, despite additional patches.

Everyone seems to be assuming that mods in XR will work similarly to previous X games (you know, just like XR is going to be an exact clone of them only without all the cool features we've grown addicte--I mean, accustomed to). Has no one considered that the devs may very well be taking all of these things into account while they're building this new game from the ground up? Unlike the previous X games that had to have new features tacked on any old way because they'd not been designed for them, XR is no doubt being developed to take advantage of these features from the very beginning. I suspect that mods will not even be in the game directory and will not be affected by Steam in any way whatsoever. That's how I would do it if I were coding it, and I suspect the devs at Egosoft are more experienced at it than me.

[Alee Enn]

just a thought,instead of steam why dont egosft make regestration compulsorie and you get a disc wth a green tick to active the game and it would let every one no you have bought the game,but then again it might be just a daft idea, the old one

It's not egosoft who decide, it's the publisher Koch Media/Deep Silver in this case. Just like when you write a book and want to publish it, you are at the merci of the publisher.

The only way out of this dilemma, is for Egosoft to find a 2nd publisher for the game, ** cough GamersGate cough **

As the X series is available to download from GamersGate already, I'd say Egosoft already have a 2nd publisher (not too sure how that works).

I think it's not unreasonable to say that sooner or later Rebirth will be available via Gamersgate, and most of us non-Steam people will get to play it.

I still think that if Egosoft / Deep Silver are going to the trouble of making a boxed version, they should just make that a non-Steam version ...

But that's merely my opinion and means little to Deep Silver.

[A5PECT]

I don't see any mention of GamersGate selling Rebirth, only Terran Conflict and the X Superbox.

I'm guessing that Steam cut Deep Silver/Egosoft some kind of deal if they agreed to publish Rebirth exclusively on Steam. Either that, or Egosoft is more interested in multiplayer than we know, and is committing to the Steamworks API for developing it.

Also, people keep assuming that Egosoft is against Steam, when the only official word we have is in favor of it.

[Texhnolyzed]

Also, people keep assuming that Egosoft is against Steam, when the only official word we have is in favor of it.

That, and there aren't really any reasons why Egosoft would be against it.

[Scoob]

Hi,

Lots of people are assuming that modding works in a similar way because we have no solid information to the contrary. Bernd can change our assumptions

Even if modding is much improved, i.e. something like you add a new SHIP to your Ships folder and it as no effect on any existing ship. Rather than how it is now where adding a Ship means a new tShips file, which updates EVERY ship in effect.

I recall when Total Annihilation came out, it was the first game I ever had to give Free DLC. Every week or so they'd make a new Unit for one of the sides (Core or Arm) available for free download. You just dropped it into your game folder and done. Simple. That was in 1997 I've no doubt Egosoft are capable of implementing something equally simple, we just don't know if they have.

The thing is an update will always have the potential to break a modded game, and that's fair enough. The thing that worries people is that Steam will force an update before we as the player are ready for it. I.e. the updated version of our favourite mod isn't quite ready yet.

I hope it's a simple matter of staying in Offline mode until the mod update is ready, then letting Steam update - assuming (once again) that we're NOT on the false patch method still. If we are, with forewarning, we can readily prepare our install for patching - basically just backup our stuff, bump the numbers up one, and copy back after patching. It's not complex.

If Steam plays nice and let's us work this way then I wouldn't expect any issues in the patching process. But if, for example, we HAD to be in Steam online mode because - shocking as it might be - we have OTHER steam games, maybe even online multiplayer ones, then is Steam just going to apply the update to XR before we're ready?

Ok, I know we can elect to say "don't update" in XR potentially, however that's only fine while we DON'T play it. As soon as we try to launch it with steam in Online mode, it's gonna update. Maybe we can carefully juggle things, switching between Offline mode for steam while playing our modded but unpatched for the moment XR game. Then, telling Steam NOT to update XR while we go back to Steams Online mode to play something else / use the social functions if so inclined.

All I want is to know that I can control when updates are applied to my modded XR game - I think I can by juggling steam settings, but it's not 100% clear.

Oh, of course we all except that a game update might directly clash with our favourite mod of the moment, that's the whole point of having control so we can choose if we wish to Patch, and benefit from new game features / stability etc. and possibly have to restart, OR simply carry on with our current modded game and only update when we wish to restart or when an update to our mod is available.

What people are asking and expecting isn't unreasonable for the most part, but there are evidently lots of us with concerns.

In summary, if updates to XR are applied differently and we no longer have to False patch to get past the "one mod only" limit of TC etc. These will both help a lot...subject to us being able to control Steam effectively.

I'm going to buy XR, I'm likely (unless other options are available) going to install it via Steam. I'm going to Mod or download mods others have created. I'm going to apply the inevitable patches that will be needed. I'm also gonna b*tch on these forums if it all goes horribly wrong! lol.

People who don't like the idea of having to use steam aren't being irrational, they have valid cause for their concerns for the most part. It's great that for many Steam has just worked for them in the past. However, if one of these for whom Steam "just works" allows steam to apply an update to their modded game, or even simply don't notice steam updating, it may break their game the same as anyone elses. THIS is why we need to understand things better.

Scoob.

[GCU Grey Area]

Well said Scoob
One thing I'd like to add is that another important reaason why some people may be concerned about potential mod/patch conflicts is simply the duration of an X game. Certainly has me worried. Other modifiable games (such as, say, Oblivion or Fallout) may last around 100 hours or so (that's roughly my typical duration for a single character), but X games can go on for literally thousands of hours, lasting many weeks, months, even years. If you put that much effort into a game & then it breaks because of an unavoidable conflict due to auto-patching would be a devastating blow.

[thetack]

what worries me GCU is with the game aimed at the mass market hence steam, is there going to be any game life as in the X games or is it going to be a short plot with little else until you download the new add on packs for each new 2 hours of gameplay at a minor cost of £1.99 each time.

[Texhnolyzed]

what worries me GCU is with the game aimed at the mass market hence steam, is there going to be any game life as in the X games or is it going to be a short plot with little else until you download the new add on packs for each new 2 hours of gameplay at a minor cost of £1.99 each time.

That would apply if they decided to release it on consoles, because consoles are the incarnation of "mass market". If you think that a game going to Steam equals the game going "mass market", you really don't know much about the matter.

Steam distributes more Indie games than any other service out there, which is the complete opposite of "mass market".

And I highly doubt that Egosoft would go that DLC route. They are not stupid!

[Scoob]

Well said Scoob
One thing I'd like to add is that another important reaason why some people may be concerned about potential mod/patch conflicts is simply the duration of an X game. Certainly has me worried. Other modifiable games (such as, say, Oblivion or Fallout) may last around 100 hours or so (that's roughly my typical duration for a single character), but X games can go on for literally thousands of hours, lasting many weeks, months, even years. If you put that much effort into a game & then it breaks because of an unavoidable conflict due to auto-patching would be a devastating blow.

Thanks

I, like you, tend to put more hours into X games than anything else. Equally though, those who can only put in a few hours a week may well be affected if they mod. I mean, you could potentially be only a few game hours into your current modded game, yet weeks have passed, when an update becomes available. Ok, you could argue that they've just started out so they can restart more readily, maybe that's true. But for me those first few hours are often the most effort to get your little empire started...they are fun hours for sure, but having to do it again can feel like work rather than fun.

Regarding DLC. I've no objection to paying for a quality expansion adding many hours of gameplay or new features which can expand existing gameplay. Too many devs seems to proudly announce "Here's the bit we removed from the game, now you can BUY it to make your game complete!" sort of thing. I don't consider Egosoft to be this sort at all.

Doubtless Egosoft will have countless additional ideas for things after the game is feature locked for testing etc. as well as features maybe they could not quite finish. I expect, Egosoft being Egosoft, patches will still contain additional free bonus material, such as the bits they couldn't quite get finished before the feature-lock. But if they want to save a larger addition for some paid for DLC (i.e. they'd like to make some money from their additional efforts, not unreasonable!) then whether we buy it or not will tell Egosoft if they've got it right...

The worst thing any company can do is hint at a feature being present in a game, only to find it's NOT, then you're asked to pay for it later. I remember when I bought one of the Battlecruiser games years ago. It said, quite clearly, on the box that a multi-player update WILL be released. They lied. Ok, so they changed their minds and decided to do it in their next game instead...that you were expected to pay full price for yet again. So, none of us who paid money ever got the game we were TOLD on the box we would. I never bought another game from them.

I have a lot of respect for Egosoft and their work in the past, it's kept me more entertained over the years than ANY other game series. Also, I can see the sense in them going Steam, it's a popular platform, most people appear to have few issues with it, though it's not without it's faults certainly. I mean, looking at it simply, it's the difference sending an email and writing a letter. For the letter you need pen, paper, envelope, stamp and then you need to walk to the post box. That's a lot of steps when the content of the letter was the relevant part. With Steam we just get the data...which is the important part, but we do lose that nice box (which I like personally) and a degee of control over how and where we install our product and how updates are applied...which is the major bugbear for many.

So yeah, I get it Egosoft, I really do, and I really hope it works out. I do still have concerns though like many here. I hope Bernd or someone else on the team will be able to answer some of these concerns soon. I would assume that both how to mod and how updates would be applied are an integral part of the design of the game, not something tagged on at the end. So I assume (lots of that going on lol) that Bernd does have at least a very good idea of how things will work, and how we can tweak Steam to avoid any unnecessary...frustrations.

As a final point, I do feel for those who simply do not have a good enough internet connection to make use of steam. Someone suggested that "if they can afford a gaming PC, they can afford a decent connection" sooo not getting it. In some areas of the world you could be very wealthly indeed and still not have the option to get a good broadband connection. For some, dialup is still as good as it gets, shocking as that may be. I have friends at the moment, living abroad, who are so off the radar that I cannot even call them, let alone send data lol. Ok, extreme case, but you get me. So, while any business really has to cater for the majority, we'll assume for Egosoft customers that's those with reasonable broadband. It would be great if there was a way for those players who don't have a good bb service to play solely off-line. I'm sure such customers would be happy if a little more effort was needed for patching etc. if it meant they could play offline, maybe downloading raw updated files to a USB key or somesuch before manually patching. Same is true of those who simply don't want to install steam under any circumstances. Their reasons are perfectly valid for them.

As I've said before, I will buy XR and I'm testing Steam now. If things go ok I will allow Steam on my gaming PC, but in the meantime testing will be happening on THIS PC, which is my gateway.

Cheers,

Scoob.

[David Howland]

Texhnolyzed hi,
Well mate I am truly amazed at your staying power. You obviously have a lot of tech. knoweldge but very little knowledge of the people you are trying to convince. You have the following groups:-
1. People who have used Steam and are happy with it. There you are preaching to the converted, not really much point is there?
2. People anti-steam because they do not have a HSB link. Your words will not help them!
3. People anti-steam because they have had a bad game or computer experience with steam or maybe they have been warned off programs like yours by their internet security provider. Well mate people who have been through such painful experiences are not going to be talked round by a few words from you, no matter how expert. In fact the more you and ES rail against their solid experience the angrier and more intrenched they will become.
You might look at all your efforts and draw the conclusion that after your first three posts, your remostrating has been counterproductive.
I am sure you are intelligent enough to realise this, so just how much are you being paid to waste your time and effort?

[Texhnolyzed]

You forgot a group...

4. The people anti-steam just for the sake of being against it, making up things that are simply not the case. As seen in my reply before this one.

And wasting my time on internet forums, can be a nice change from the usual eating, playing games, listening to music etc. I do in my spare time.

[the-danzorz]

Texhnolyzed hi,
Well mate I am truly amazed at your staying power. You obviously have a lot of tech. knoweldge but very little knowledge of the people you are trying to convince. You have the following groups:-
1. People who have used Steam and are happy with it. There you are preaching to the converted, not really much point is there?
2. People anti-steam because they do not have a HSB link. Your words will not help them!
3. People anti-steam because they have had a bad game or computer experience with steam or maybe they have been warned off programs like yours by their internet security provider. Well mate people who have been through such painful experiences are not going to be talked round by a few words from you, no matter how expert. In fact the more you and ES rail against their solid experience the angrier and more intrenched they will become.
You might look at all your efforts and draw the conclusion that after your first three posts, your remostrating has been counterproductive.
I am sure you are intelligent enough to realise this, so just how much are you being paid to waste your time and effort?

Bit closed minded of you to write this? you can't really fit everyone into those 3 groups.

What about the people worried steam might steal resources from the game?

What about the people unsure of steam and the 2 way arguing is confusing them further and they simply want the facts to make an informed decision?

Theres a lot of concerns regarding steam for a large amount a reasons, some people don't like this, purely because they lost a decision on how to install / manage the game... not because they don't like steam etc.

The thread has repeated itself probably 5-6 times now, do you think your actually posting something new or worth while by posting that too? it doesn't help the thread, no one is going to listen and mostly just wants to be heard.

I have said all i can about steam, so has a lot of people and the counter opinions have been stated as well. This thread has not been productive for pages and pages now. I have already suggested a valid way of getting the steam concern heard. Its up to those it does concern to do it and try to get a change. Otherwise EVERYONE is wasting their time with this thread. Its mostly all none-productive at this point.

[chew-ie]

And I highly doubt that Egosoft would go that DLC route. They are not stupid!

What exactly is stupid about the DLC route?

The Mass Effect (1 & 2) story DLCs were great, the DLCs for Fallout New Vegas were awesome and the Failout 3 DLCs "The Pitt" and "Point Lookout" were better then the whole game (not that hard, but still).

Getting DLCs is a customers choice - and if some buy a horse armor for a disproportional amount of money, that´s entirely their fault. But the DLC "system" itself has a great potential. If done right, as all things.

[Scoob]

How I think of it is this...

In the past Egosoft have given us some pretty decent freebies content-wise. Nice little bonuses if you will.

Now, if they've been prepared to do this for free, imagine what they can achieve if they're getting some money for it!

However the flip side is that, traditionally at least, the modding community has MORE than catered for our "DLC" needs, well it has for me! The "signing" process was originally a way to make scripts (not really mods though) official and released as part of a free bonus pack. This was a good way to give those who don't like modifed a taste of what they're missing.

Purely within the realms of "modding" and "scripting" there's not much that Egosoft can do that player-created mods cannot for TC etc. I assume the same, if not more, control will be given to the modder in XR - well, I certainly hope so.

So, the question is, what sort of DLC could Egosoft offer via Steam (see how I kept this on topic there? lol) that we could not, in theory, get free from the modding community?

I mean, the extra missions etc. that we've had for free with patches have been pretty good, but can you compare that to something like XRM? Or XTC with a NEW universe? As does Transcend II etc. A massive amount of effort went in to creating those...yet we all got them for free.

IF Egosoft are considering paid for DLC (which, like I say, I'm fine with as it's my choice if I buy or not) I'd be interested to see what form it takes and what it can offer the community that some of the talented modders here cannot.

Cheers,

Scoob.