[MOD TC/AP] Combat Mod 4 - v4.16 17/06/13 - AP 3.0 Compatibility

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

maybe, but paul has to balance CMOD's Kyon to also work with vanilla ship balance. Vanilla Khaak carrier has 1 laser per turret, so to make balance I'm sure paul would have to make a very powerful laser, and that would make the Asura very overpowered. So I think paul, keep doing what you do, I'll drop X-Tra Khaak laser mounts to half the current number.

Vanilla Khaak M2 has 3 lasers on it's left/right turret.
Current release Asura has 8. I think dropping it to 4 would be just nice..

If you are going to do that then perhaps the Rhakshasa should also have it's per turret weapon count halved?

[Advent1s]

Not really an issue, but whenever i dont use SRM with CMOD i get a readtext error on the inactive SRM dealers and active/inactive factory settings in the AL plugin thing.

Also readtext errors in the settings of CMOD factories in plugin config.

Not sure why or what to do.

[Sn4kemaster]

maybe, but paul has to balance CMOD's Kyon to also work with vanilla ship balance. Vanilla Khaak carrier has 1 laser per turret, so to make balance I'm sure paul would have to make a very powerful laser, and that would make the Asura very overpowered. So I think paul, keep doing what you do, I'll drop X-Tra Khaak laser mounts to half the current number.

Vanilla Khaak M2 has 3 lasers on it's left/right turret.
Current release Asura has 8. I think dropping it to 4 would be just nice..

If you are going to do that then perhaps the Rhakshasa should also have it's per turret weapon count halved?

Paul i have done a lot of testing with the new Khaak M7 against other M7 ships in the SRM, and the current weapon damage vs the guns per turret is perfect as the Khaak M7 can generaly match/destroy most other M7's with 20% hull remaining, only the ATF Kvasir can generally survive against it, but it normaly only has 25% hull left (this is with light hull pack and the AI controlling both ships)

So if its decided to half the number of guns per turret from 8 to 4 on the M7 and M2 then from a balance point of view the damage output of the Khaak beam weapons will need to be doubled......or these ships will become toothless.

I do strongly think that these new Khaak ships should be a match for any other ship in their class......at the very least the new Khaak M2 should be able to go toe to toe with a Tyr, like the Xennon Z they shoulld be the stuff of nightmares for the player to battle.

[Cadius]

I think having to double the damage output of Gamma Kyons is the way to go. That way people that use CMOD4 alone, and don't use SRM or X-Tra won't end up with toothless Khaak. and the whole beam fps issue

[paulwheeler]

Not really an issue, but whenever i dont use SRM with CMOD i get a readtext error on the inactive SRM dealers and active/inactive factory settings in the AL plugin thing.

Also readtext errors in the settings of CMOD factories in plugin config.

Not sure why or what to do.

I'll check this. I think I know what the problem may be. Its nothing to worry about, just missing text files. I should be able to fix it with the next update.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I think having to double the damage output of Gamma Kyons is the way to go. That way people that use CMOD4 alone, and don't use SRM or X-Tra won't end up with toothless Khaak. and the whole beam fps issue

You could take the AWRM option and leave CMOD GKE balance as is? AWRM adds Enh/Adv versions of the KEs.

[paulwheeler]

I think having to double the damage output of Gamma Kyons is the way to go. That way people that use CMOD4 alone, and don't use SRM or X-Tra won't end up with toothless Khaak. and the whole beam fps issue

I think thats a good call. I will look at increasing the Gamma Kyon damage if you are going to reduce total gun numbers on the new ships.

I will look at increasing duration a little and reducing the hit box to make them a bit less effective against fighters.

[builder680]

Do beam weapons cause FPS trouble because of the way they calculate damage (i.e., large ships with dozens of them bottlenecking at the CPU) or because of their actual graphics rendering (i.e. large ships with dozens of them bottlenecking at the GPU)?

As far as helping with FPS, I'd think this would be an important disctinction when deciding how to try to optimize them. Either simplifying their damage calculations or simplifying their graphics. Though their graphics are for the most part pretty simple already.

I think balance wise, either Litcube's ideas or Paul's ideas (as implemented in CMOD already) are probably both good. Just a matter of preference.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Do beam weapons cause FPS trouble because of the way they calculate damage (i.e., large ships with dozens of them bottlenecking at the CPU) or because of their actual graphics rendering (i.e. large ships with dozens of them bottlenecking at the GPU)?

That would be sheer speculation on our part, we would need to have some pretty good profiling of CPU and GPU load to be able to even start discussing it properly.

As far as helping with FPS, I'd think this would be an important disctinction when deciding how to try to optimize them. Either simplifying their damage calculations or simplifying their graphics. Though their graphics are for the most part pretty simple already.

If it is the damage calculations there is little that can be done without access to engine source code and as you have pointed out the graphics are rather simple already. If I were a betting man, I would lay money on beam FPS performance issues being down to hard-coded factors that us modders will be unlikely to be able to resolve (c/f PSG performance impact).

I think balance wise, either Litcube's ideas or Paul's ideas (as implemented in CMOD already) are probably both good. Just a matter of preference.

Paul has already done something similar along those lines in the form of the Gauss Cannon. I have seen some pictures of the CMOD GC in action and thought it looked rather beam like. What it would not really address is the general issue with universal effectiveness. I would guess that the CMOD GC is effective against fighters as well as capitals.

What I find quite bizaar is that people say they want insta-hit beam type lasers then complain when they are too effective against all types of target. My discussion over here is intended to try and empirically determine what the significant factors are in calculating the rate of damage dealt by Egosoft's hard-coded implementation of beam weapons and thus lead to better balancing of such weapons in the future.

[Mad_CatMk2]

I actually like the CMOD GC's. When I look at an AI capital firing its GC's at a hapless M5 or M4, the weapon doesn't really hit them...I think the chance of it hitting is roughly 5-10% or less.

But I really liked Litcube's suggestion in the other thread that he mentioned to make the beam weapons more like the ISR.

[Osiris454]

I had seen a Kha'ak M7 'Frigate' try to take down some fighters that were swarming it. It only managed to cause 2 of them to bail. The beams missed most of the time.

The ISR's hitbox is really small. I can barely hit anything with them. Shooting a fighter dead on usually misses. Only a profile shot seems to score a hit, and even then, damage is a.... meh.

The CFA's hitbox is really small. Only a direct shot can cause damage, but it's a Flak weapon, so I should be able to do damage even if I miss. Same thing for the FAA, but not as much.

The FAA's range should be increased to 2.75Km with a slight increase to power draw. It's way to short ranged and fighters can shoot their weapons all day without getting into range of the FAA's. Hence, why I changed to Cerberus to use HEPT's too (they are in range now ). Also, I don't know of any 'artillery' that's been designed to shoot less than 2.00Km, and taking up to 30 in cargo space the HEPT makes a better anti-fighter weapon at this point with better damage, range, and with a smaller cargo footprint too. Damage output of the CFA should be increased to compensate.

[HotSake]

As a way to give Flak a more generous hit percentage and avoid the issue of the Fragmentation flag being useless, perhaps the flak weapons should be turned into AOE lasers like the PSG but with a significantly narrower cone. I'm thinking 15-20 degrees across, perhaps wider for the CFA to distinguish it. This would improve their accuracy against fast targets while causing fewer friendly fire incidents than a PSG (but really, you're spraying flak around - expect it). By making them a narrow AOE weapon instead of simply a bullet with a large hitbox, they can strike multiple targets and be more useful vs. swarms of fighters.
Thoughts?

[paulwheeler]

Well, I have already made the flak hit boxes huge so you kind of get that effect anyway.

The CFA has a massive hit box and regularly hits m5s with no problems whatsoever. For instance, PBE has a hitbox widrth of 0.5. CFA has a hitbox width of 25! People used to moan that the PRG hitbox looked silly and it was only 1.5 before I reduced it back to 1.

I will experiment with making them a little bigger, but I don't want it to start looking wrong.

I'm not sure that making it an full AOE weapon will quite have the same effect. Right now if you fly a fighter into flak fire it feels as if you are being bombarded with loads of flak.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I'm not sure that making it an full AOE weapon will quite have the same effect. Right now if you fly a fighter into flak fire it feels as if you are being bombarded with loads of flak.

Also converting Flak type to PSG type will almost certainly have other complications such as Friendly Fire issues, FPS degredation, and modification from highly probably hit to guaranteed hit. In addition due to the way PSG bullets are implemented the actual range is greater than the on paper range meaning that the vanilla AI turret scripts will probably not be able to make effective use of them.

[HotSake]

Well, I have already made the flak hit boxes huge so you kind of get that effect anyway.
...
I will experiment with making them a little bigger, but I don't want it to start looking wrong.

Oh, I think the weapon is fine right now. I was just pondering a different implementation. Another branch from vanilla, rather than further development of the CMOD version, so to speak.

[Osiris454]

OK so, maybe the large explosion is masking what damage it does but that was really a minor concern as the range being so short was my main question.

[builder680]

Expanding a bit on a comment I made yesterday in Litcube's Missile Boat thread... but subsequently edited out (this thread is more appropriate).

The extra missiles being fired at me have really made me consider the effectiveness of Missile Defense weapons.

In particular, I've found that the Ion Disruptor is extremely powerful vs packs of missiles, due to its jumping ability and missiles having what seems to be 1 hp.

This is just my opinion, but this seems overpowered.

In fact it seems that Missile Defense (especially with more missiles being fired due to that script) is actually a much better use for the Ion Disruptor than what I *thought* was its actual intended use, namely battering shields down (which it's a bit slow at doing) and frying systems (which it does decently).

I don't think it should be so simple to hit 20+ missiles in one shot with one weapon, but especially a weapon that I didn't think was designed for that purpose anyway. Why bother with any other weapon for Missile Defense?

Just putting it out there for discussion, in case anyone else cares to chime in / disagree. Simple solution for me to keep balance in my game is to just not set them to do that job in their turret, or leave them unequipped entirely.

[Osiris454]

I have no problems with using the ID for missile defence, but I prefer not to use it at all. It's jumping ability is excellent, but it can't distinguish between friend or foe. The last thing I want it to do is save me from a wave of missiles only to have it piss off the neighbourhood Titan.

[Mizuchi]

Litcube's Missile Boat ... the extra missiles being fired at me have really made me consider the effectiveness of Missile Defense weapons ... This is just my opinion, but this seems overpowered.

You can't really say that CMOD4 is imbalanced/overpowered because of how it interacts with an entirely different script or mod, and what effects are produced by that interaction as a result.

You have to judge CMOD on its own merits as it stands on its own. If you think they're OP in a particular combination then... don't use that combination, is likely the most elegant solution.

What you need to keep in mind that CMOD is a rebalance of Vanilla X3 game mechanics.

Balancing for other mod interactions is - as far as I would assume - far beyond the scope of what it sets out to accomplish, unless an add-on is specifically made for cross-interactivity.

If Paul were to change the behavior of CMOD based on that cross-script interaction, then everyone else who doesn't use that particular combination of scripts is going to feel short-changed.

Besides which, worrying about how it balances out when said combinations are applied would quickly turn CMOD into a monster to maintain (and we don't want that).

But then again, I don't recall being elected spokesman for anyone, so these are just my opinions.

Take them or leave them as such. No harm in discussuon, though.

(Unless the discussion is actually a bomb!)

[builder680]

No, no I'm not calling CMOD overpowered. Just this weapon (ID), and only in situations against packs of missiles, AND probably in vanilla too. Not sure because I didn't use it in vanilla.

I just posted here because it's the weapons mod I use, and if anyone agreed this would be where it would be discussed for potential ideas. It seems to me that the goal of this mod is to balance weapons in as many otherwise "stock game" situations as possible, and this is one I noticed (independent of script usage, other ships have always fired missiles... but it's certainly highlighted by the Missile Boat), so I mentioned it.

I'm not sure if CMOD even changes ID's currently. This certainly isn't a comment about the mod itself. If it's deemed unnecessary to look at it because the characteristics it has aren't as apparently OP in a more 'vanilla' setting, I can understand that.

But the script didn't make this weapon overly useful for this task... it always was.... as a byproduct of the original 'jumps to multiple targets' design. The script just makes it more apparent because it's usefulness is increased. The consequence of that design seem to make it more fit for a purpose I don't think it was actually meant for, but perhaps it was primarily meant to shoot missiles by the dozens in a millisecond. I can't tell, because it's better at that than what I thought it's *real* job was (shield battering and system frying).

As said above though, simple solution is just to not use them for this purpose, but it was worth mentioning.