so iv heard patch 2.5 is out for devnet5 or somthing!!!! (Now With Changelog!)

[spankahontis]

There is serious balance problems with Shipyard manufacturing, I saw the Shipyard in Omicron constructing a Fulmekron Destroyer, it took an estimated 7 hours to build, same situation with Freighters as well, I had a CV built cause I was building a Hardware Supplier, it took 40 minutes to build.
Whether my save was bugged or there is a serious re-balancing issue needed here as Albion Ships take about a minute or less to build.
Most likely bugs are the cause.

Yes, I had read posts where people have experienced that. I've only ever had a handful of ships built, but they all took just minutes. My Arawn was done in around 3 minutes if I remember correctly. There were issues where the station thought it had resources but didn't, that caused a stall, but that was a while back.

Of course, they need to ensure that such things are working correctly before they go real. In my experience ship construction has been largely trouble-free when I've tried it in the more recent version of the game.

I think a helper script would be useful on Shipyards, basically something that can detect a glitch or stall so the entire "real" economy doesn't crap out. A simple timer in effect, i.e. this is taking too long, insta-complete the build. So, a cheat in effect, but one that prevents issues in the rare situation of a glitch during ship construction.

As and aside, DeVries NOT having the infrastructure to support ship construction is perfect, and fits with the "cut off" theme. Only via player support can they truly rebuild. Though, saying that, the new inter-System traders can supply missing wares currently.

Another thing to consider: The current NPC economy is basically money free, only the player and their stations actually need funds to buy stuff. This is ok, we can assume major factions have shed loads of money / trade cash-free between their own stations. This also simplifies the Economy as I propose it, because lack of cash will never cause a stall. Ultimately, it'd be good if stations / factions had a cash balance, though I'd see a long-established station as being totally minted anyway, so cash never an issue. Basically, with everything else I've said and my assumption that this was ES's vision anyway, the lack of NPC station/faction funds makes more sense.

Scoob.

Shipyards still stop building halfway through a ship from time to time, I experienced this in DeVries and Albion, I had to destroy the ships as leaving the sectors didn't help.

Welll.. I have been playing this campaign since 2.0, so maybe a fresh game is in order to really get a feel of all the features and fixes?
Might sort the problems out.

Is this maybe related to the bug (don't know if this bug still exist) that shipyards can't build multiple ships at the same time? Because shipyards are using all of their drones on a single ship and when this ship is finished it doesn't allocate them to one of the other ships already in built.

That's a good point, now that you mention it, I THINK there was a Sequana being built at the same time.
I did check how many Construction Drones there were and the station did say it had 80 Con drones, so this maybe a case that it took this long.

Not sure about the CV I had built, that took nearly an hour and it was the only ship being constructed at the time.
I really do hope this gets fixed soon, like 2.5 soon. lol

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@pref: My understanding is that they do not spawn with the cargo, they may spawn for free and without a production cycle consideration but my understanding is all big ship trading cargo is bought and sold (not spawned).

@scoob: Even an approximation to Settlers is bad enough IMO, but Egosoft will deliver what they deliver at the end of the day.

As for resource sinks, Drones and missiles are supposed to be disposable resources to a greater or lesser extent and thus depending on the level of AI interaction they could become more than adequate resource sinks.

Having the AI build ships at the shipyards the way the yards are currently implemented would almost certainly hamper Player construction of ships. IIRC the Shipyards used to produce more ships on their own than they currently do and that caused the player issues when they wanted ships constructed. Shipyard implementation would have to change OR the production of AI ships would have to be "faked" as it currently stands.

[spankahontis]

@pref: My understanding is that they do not spawn with the cargo, they may spawn for free and without a production cycle consideration but my understanding is all big ship trading cargo is bought and sold (not spawned).

@scoob: Even an approximation to Settlers is bad enough IMO, but Egosoft will deliver what they deliver at the end of the day.

As for resource sinks, Drones and missiles are supposed to be disposable resources to a greater or lesser extent and thus depending on the level of AI interaction they could become more than adequate resource sinks.

Having the AI build ships at the shipyards the way the yards are currently implemented would almost certainly hamper Player construction of ships. IIRC the Shipyards used to produce more ships on their own than they currently do and that caused the player issues when they wanted ships constructed. Shipyard implementation would have to change OR the production of AI ships would have to be "faked" as it currently stands.

I've noticed that stations, even when you've acquired a trade agent for that station, don't update you automatically on how many V Crushers their station needs.
Had to check the station out to trigger the numbers they needed, i've seen stations pounding away at enemy destroyers for days and the lack of demand for V-Crushers on the trade console had me scratching my Head.

[pref]

@pref: My understanding is that they do not spawn with the cargo, they may spawn for free and without a production cycle consideration but my understanding is all big ship trading cargo is bought and sold (not spawned).

I did not check last couple of patches, but when i last played wares were spawned just like that.
I kept track of RMP stock levels - scanned stations regularly, and even though there was about 3 - 500 in all the fabs' storages (sum, not average), i saw ships spawning with 5-600 in their cargohold.
Military ships work the same way - there is (was) a constant number / ship type, that the engine maintained no matter what happened.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

@pref: My understanding is that they do not spawn with the cargo, they may spawn for free and without a production cycle consideration but my understanding is all big ship trading cargo is bought and sold (not spawned).

I did not check last couple of patches, but when i last played wares were spawned just like that.
I kept track of RMP stock levels - scanned stations regularly, and even though there was about 3 - 500 in all the fabs' storages (sum, not average), i saw ships spawning with 5-600 in their cargohold.
Military ships work the same way - there is (was) a constant number / ship type, that the engine maintained no matter what happened.

Several other modders and players also agree that they spawn with cargo:
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=368533

[BlackRain]

blackrain leaked that the small civilian ships have a purpose but there bugged out and this patch should fix the bug and make them usefull to the economy.

Didn't I already comment to you about saying "I leaked" things? I did not leak anything. Small civilian ships having a purpose is not "leaking" anything. I also never said anything about it being fixed or not being fixed. I said that mass traffic isn't just fluff and has a purpose even if it might not be working as intended. Stop reading more into the things I say please. This info is gleaned from looking into scripts which anyone can currently look into in the public version of X Rebirth. Also, I do not even know if it is working or not.

[Miniding]

.... Stop reading more into the things I say please.

That is what I keep telling my wife every single day!!! when i say "your beautifull" it does NOT mean that she wasn't before I tell her...

Keep reading text and not what could be behind

[Scoob]

@pref: My understanding is that they do not spawn with the cargo, they may spawn for free and without a production cycle consideration but my understanding is all big ship trading cargo is bought and sold (not spawned).

@scoob: Even an approximation to Settlers is bad enough IMO, but Egosoft will deliver what they deliver at the end of the day.

As for resource sinks, Drones and missiles are supposed to be disposable resources to a greater or lesser extent and thus depending on the level of AI interaction they could become more than adequate resource sinks.

Having the AI build ships at the shipyards the way the yards are currently implemented would almost certainly hamper Player construction of ships. IIRC the Shipyards used to produce more ships on their own than they currently do and that caused the player issues when they wanted ships constructed. Shipyard implementation would have to change OR the production of AI ships would have to be "faked" as it currently stands.

Really? I thought Settlers did things quite well from a simplistic eco perspective.

Resource sinks, for me, well Drones and missiles have NEVER been in demand in nay of my games - even though the plot suggests otherwise. I might sell one load manually once, but never again. My URV forge (various versions, single drone & multi drone production) NEVER sells more than one load, then that's it.

Shipyards building ships and using drones, turrets, other high-end items etc. would put a decent, genuine demand on the economy, so maybe my stations would be able to sell their drones. Plus, while I see NPC ships using drones, I never see them re-stocking. I hope they don't just gain drones automatically, as that'd be a bit poor.

We shall see what ES does. Though I do still believe that their vision was geared more towards real than the game is now, and that's where things are going. There's still bug squashing, balancing and general tweaking to be done I expect, I will await the 2.5 PB and we'll see how things are.

Scoob.

[euclid]

....*snip*....
Drones and missiles have NEVER been in demand in nay of my games
....*snip*....
Scoob.

Hey Scoob

I agree on the "need for sinks" for high-end wares but the overall market situation also depends on how you play it.

With the campaign finished since about 45 in-game days I have spent a lot of time and credits into reviving the economy in DeVries. As a result the trade has picked up, wares get moved (although my AutoTraders dominate here) and station products are actually sold, missiles and drones included.

Cheers Euclid

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I have seen the odd station occasionally ask for missiles or drones but it is only occasionally, but then I put that down to lack of usage in the case of missiles and overall lack of attrition and/or usage in the case of drones.

We will need to wait and see how the v2.50 changes affect the status quo, but I stand by my argument that having the AI require shipyards to build ships with the Shipyards as they stand is one humungous BAD IDEA.

There would need to be either player dedicated production docks to mitigate the contention issues that are bound to be in play OR more shipyards OR improvements to the way ship builds are ordered and executed (e.g. ship build queues perhaps with additional fees to enable increased build priority). Additional shipyards or construction facilities may simply be required to keep up with AI demand - especially when a Xenon K decides to go on a rampage.

In any case, I believe we are talking several patches down the road before the proposal is a realistic idea.

[Scoob]

I have seen the odd station occasionally ask for missiles or drones but it is only occasionally, but then I put that down to lack of usage in the case of missiles and overall lack of attrition and/or usage in the case of drones.

We will need to wait and see how the v2.50 changes affect the status quo, but I stand by my argument that having the AI require shipyards to build ships with the Shipyards as they stand is one humungous BAD IDEA.

There would need to be either player dedicated production docks to mitigate the contention issues that are bound to be in play OR more shipyards OR improvements to the way ship builds are ordered and executed (e.g. ship build queues perhaps with additional fees to enable increased build priority). Additional shipyards or construction facilities may simply be required to keep up with AI demand - especially when a Xenon K decides to go on a rampage.

In any case, I believe we are talking several patches down the road before the proposal is a realistic idea.

I've never had quite such a long-term game as Euclid, sadly I ran into issues and had to abandon my main long-term game. It's good to see that the economy can recover though, albeit with 3rd party scripts. Suggests there's a hole to fill there

Roger: yes, the basis of my argument is that shipyards do need to be working properly in their own right prior to making things real as I propose. I did think about contention at shipyards, where an NPC faction is ordering stuff. I think a simple Queue mechanic would work well here - shocked it's not in place already to be honest. I.e. the player submits a build request, and it happens when the Shipyard can fit you in - maybe have a slight bias toward the player in that they automatically get the next build slot after the current building NPC vessel. Sounds like you've thought alone similar lines yourself.

This is certainly something a few patches down the line, unless 2.5 really surprises us

Scoob.

[birdtable]

Another example of "Results of a damaged economy" is in Anno 1404 for example, when if you damage the basic supply chain of foodstuffs of an enemy then that enemy starves and eventually collapses .... Also the use of blockades can alone cause an enemies economy to collapse.... No instant spawning makes the game far more realistic and immersive

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Not really noticed any major economy issues that do not make sense in my most recent play throughs personally - and that is totally vanilla games.

I am not saying there are not economy issues that need to be fixed, but I believe too many people jumping to conclusions about what the solutions are.

[Scoob]

Not really noticed any major economy issues that do not make sense in my games personally - and that is totally vanilla games.

I am not saying there are not economy issues that need to be fixed, but I believe too many people jumping to conclusions about what the solutions are.

Really? I'm surprised. In my games, also vanilla due to me testing the RC's, there were minimal trade opportunities despite me having an agent on most stations. There appeared to be little (basically zero) demand for the drones I produced, I did manage to sell a little energy from my SPP but NPC's rarely bought my RMP despite quite the shortage...I started hoarding it myself in the end. I did end up building stations to support DeVries, which was satisfying, but ware requirement were tweaked back and forth over a couple of patches (DV food not needing Spices, then needing it so I built stuff, then not needing it again *sigh*) though the new inter-system traders did help out a lot.

Someone commented previously, but I do wonder if a game started in a much earlier game version can suffer from a stagnant economy, whereas a fresh start generally runs better. I don't want to restart again, but I may for 2.5 if things still don't seem right.

It's funny, the early-game stage in prior X games was probably the most enjoyable for me. However, in Rebirth it's starting to feel a bit of a grind each time, the lack of decent "proper" trading in the Skunk likely to blame, in part at least, but that's a separate discussion.

I must admit, once I have the cash, I usually start building up my own basic supply chain, initially to allow Station building, then end-products for profit. Sadly, the latter part of that never really made any dosh lol.

Scoob.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

Next patch is going to fix a bug which caused Transport, Smuggle (and other small missions) disappear after 1-2 hours of gameplay...
That can be a very lucrative, and harmless way of making money at the start. Also it's quite fun.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Well to a degree I expect the economy to be a bit stagnant, given the game situation (I am talking lore here) but there are on-going trade opportunities.

As Euclid has stated, it does depend on how you play the game.

Demand for drones is not overly high but I have found it quite profitable when demand does peak on occasion. Buying and selling NPC produced drones, I try to put the drones I build to use on my stations.

FTR I have trade agents probably in every friendly/neutral station.

[DaddyMonster]

@scoob

Yeah, my personal experience is much the same; sinks taking time to appear, having many freighters and not having the deals to employ them. In X3 you could always find a use for your fleet even when it grew huge - hell, you could set them to automatic and turn them loose - and I've personally just not found that to be the case with Rebirth even manually after putting agents on all the stations.

Trying to manage your own supply chain - again, pretty much a joy in X3 - is not a rewarding endeavour. But it's so close to being so... I would like to see stations start smaller and it be possible to use individual modules as beginner stations. I think in general that the solution to the economy rests as much in downsizing as it does the spawning issue. Might be wrong about that one but it's my inkling.

I'm nonetheless quietly hopeful that in the introduction of small freighters - or rather their useful implementation - will change the dynamic here so that we're not just replying on lumbering behemoths but find sinks filled quickly while the large freighters provide oversupply and affect prices in an interesting way.

[Marcus Aseth]

Guys imagine in the future when humanity will be able to build true AI, not fakes ones like the one we have today in all games,and that AI will be implemented in most of the games...they will look back at our games and they will feel veeeery sorry for us...

We think we have walked so far from the period where we had to use imagination to play,but to me it seems we are still in there
I have to immaginate my war or conflict between faction while I play X:R

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

Well to a degree I expect the economy to be a bit stagnant, given the game situation (I am talking lore here) but there are on-going trade opportunities.

As Euclid has stated, it does depend on how you play the game.

Demand for drones is not overly high but I have found it quite profitable when demand does peak on occasion. Buying and selling NPC produced drones, I try to put the drones I build to use on my stations.

FTR I have trade agents probably in every friendly/neutral station.

Hmm I also have trade agents at every Albion station, and I also don't have any problems with trading.
Time-to-time I trade with drones and weaponry (there's a lot more demand for them in Omycron Lyrae however).
But I noticed that Iam selling them to normal stations most of time.
Like Energy Arrays or Spice fabs.
Which is somehow strange, since those don't need them for production.
Maybe they get damaged time-to-time and need replacement weaponry then?
I can see some trade offers from the PMC Defensive Phallax... Althrough it's completly destroyed in my game. It wants to buy ~70 pieces of HIT/MA turrets.
Iam kinda afraid of accepting that trade offer - since the station is destroyed and there are no docks where my freighter could unload the goods.

[Miniding]

SteamDB shows movements... but anyone can explain a bit, please?