Coronavirus: COVID-19

[mr.WHO]

While I'm fully against getting back to lockdown (COVID + unemployment = Mad Max Seattle), it doesn't help that lots of people went to clubs, bars, beaches, parties and football game the minute it has been lifted.

I imagine people would be less like stupid sheep (one way and another) - I can understand the restaurant on free air with proper distancing, but going to club where there is less than 50 cm between people in close space? Or to the beach with people density of penguin colony?

I blame these people for the need of lockdown.
I still see that 50k Feminist rally in Spain, or Guiness record Smurf meeting in France, or "Hug the Asian" action - all of these during COVID, but before lockdown.

I'll blame them for 2nd wave after the lockdown lift.
I see BLM protest and 4th July celebrations equally stupid.
I mean RUSSIA postponed their WW2 parade due to Covid - if they can then, US "muh murica is da best" or "muh murica is racis" really looks more like like an qarrel between two retar*** kids.

[Vertigo 7]

I'll blame them for 2nd wave after the lockdown lift.
I see BLM protest and 4th July celebrations equally stupid.
I mean RUSSIA postponed their WW2 parade due to Covid - if they can then, US "muh murica is da best" or "muh murica is racis" really looks more like like an qarrel between two retar*** kids.

wtf is wrong with you?

[fiksal]

While I'm fully against getting back to lockdown (COVID + unemployment = Mad Max Seattle), it doesn't help that lots of people went to clubs, bars, beaches, parties and football game the minute it has been lifted.

I imagine people would be less like stupid sheep (one way and another) - I can understand the restaurant on free air with proper distancing, but going to club where there is less than 50 cm between people in close space? Or to the beach with people density of penguin colony?

I blame these people for the need of lockdown.
I still see that 50k Feminist rally in Spain, or Guiness record Smurf meeting in France, or "Hug the Asian" action - all of these during COVID, but before lockdown.

I'll blame them for 2nd wave after the lockdown lift.
I see BLM protest and 4th July celebrations equally stupid.
I mean RUSSIA postponed their WW2 parade due to Covid - if they can then, US "muh murica is da best" or "muh murica is racis" really looks more like like an qarrel between two retar*** kids.

The protests is something authorities can be blamed for quite easily. They could've addressed the problems for years, but they hadnt, or contributed to them. And there you go. We can discuss how they arent maybe keeping the right distance (yet still wear masks) and that they should be sitting quietly at home while the police murders them, but that's not really the idea that can be sold to people.

Speaking of Russia, a good example to compare with US, a terrible example overall. Russia still doesnt think COVID is a threat much, the parade was postponed, not cancelled. Propaganda keeps spreading the idea that coronovirus was engineered by US and released specifically to damage Russia. Putin is basically a more efficient Trump, and Russia is better working / harder winning US lead by Republicans.

[mr.WHO]

I'll blame them for 2nd wave after the lockdown lift.
I see BLM protest and 4th July celebrations equally stupid.
I mean RUSSIA postponed their WW2 parade due to Covid - if they can then, US "muh murica is da best" or "muh murica is racis" really looks more like like an qarrel between two retar*** kids.

wtf is wrong with you?

I mean one minute we have the closets thing to zombie apocalypse in real life and then, in less than a week, everyone went nuts with either mass protests or indulge with mass petty pleasures (beaches, clubbing, football games).
Just a while ago people were fighting eachother over a freaking toilet paper.

Lockdown was an overreaction, but getting back to business as usual (especially i regards to ANY mass event - protests included) in less than week or two is also crazy.
It's 21st century - we have remove work, remove schools, remove universities...how about remove protests? I think remove drinking is a thing too.
Going to beach or club might be hard to digitalized, but I'd imagine people could live without these a little bit longer?

[felter]

There is something funny going on with the UK's confirmed numbers, on July 1st the UK had 314,992 confirmed cases, yet on July 2nd the UK had only 285,268 confirmed cases. How is that even possible, confirmed cases cannot just suddenly be unconfirmed, they don't just magically disappear, so what happened to those 29,724 confirmed cases that have managed to magically just vanish.

[CBJ]

Today's data does look like there's an error. The graphs are messed up too, showing an increase in daily rate in the per-nation data despite the total showing a drop. I know the counting period is different for the two, but it's still not right.

[Mightysword]

The protests is something authorities can be blamed for quite easily. They could've addressed the problems for years, but they hadnt, or contributed to them.

Think you're missing his point, he's not talking about the reason or how justified it was, just the fact that it happened. If you can blame the crowed beaches and the overflow bars for the spread of the virus, you can certainly blame the protest for the same thing. Unless ... you want the argue the virus some how discriminate the reason? Remember the lock down protest itself happened just before and most people here (rightly) criticized it as dangerous from a health perspective, and the fact is the BLM protest put THAT to shame both in term of scale and duration.

Maybe it was unavoidable, I only wish the coverage has been more even and honest about it. It wasn't just a shift of focus, I remember the coverage during that time, it's almost like we decided to conveniently forget there is a pandemic going on. Understandably enough, I would guess anyone or official who dare to do the political incorrect move of spoiling such a righteous moment with objective fact will be immediately labelled. And now, thanks to that double standard demonstrated there, let me just say this: if we haven't been able to convince some people the necessity of the lock-down, we certainly ain't gonna convince anybody now, not even the people who do anti-lockdown protest.

You should already know that unlike other who speak out against the lock down measure, I take this pandemic very seriously. Easing or not, I still impose myself under the same measure from months ago, and with the current trend it's almost certain at this point I will see out the remaining of this year under such measure. But while to some of us it's just merely a matter of inconvenience, to some other it's just a matter of getting over their selfish desires (the beach people), but also to large part of the population, we are also asking them to restrict their job and livehood for the good of the public. There is nothing wrong with that, but for such message to be effective, it needs consistency, consistency that we just threw out of the window.

[Alan Phipps]

@ felter & CBJ: It seems from this page that since 2 July the UK's confirmed cases are now being counted with duplications removed from within pillar 1 and 2 reporting and only counting from 1 April onwards.

[felter]

Sounds exceptionally fishy to me, I suspect it is just Johnson's crowed once again playing a game to make themselves look better than they actually are, which is how he works, nothing that comes out of his mouth or his government can be trusted to be true or real as they are all just compulsive liars.

[CBJ]

So you'd rather that someone who was tested twice be counted twice, even though it's only one person? I don't like Boris any more than you do, but not everything is about politics. This data is being collated by the scientists, and improvements in reporting methodology are pretty normal. Sometimes it does result in oddities in the data, and often that can't be rectified retrospectively because the data simply isn't available, but as long as it's clearly marked there's no reason to suspect foul play.

I didn't see the note that Alan linked (thank Alan!) otherwise I would have seen the "blip" for what it was.

[exogenesis]

Wearing a mask isn't about keeping yourself safe from others; it's about keeping others safe from you. That's not an opinion; it's a statement of scientific fact. Either you know that and choose to ignore it, or you refuse to accept it because it doesn't fit your ideology. Either way, it speaks volumes.

I'm with the people that support face masks in-public/at-work (officially a bit belatedly it seems),
but I think (am fairly sure) there's a good factor in your favour (i.e. of you not contracting Covid from others)
by wearing a face mask (surgical multi-layer / N95),
so I don't think face-masks are all just about (potential) carriers not spreading it.


Are there any good article readers ([medical?]-scientists) here, I've been sent a link to this Lancet paper :
"Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis" June 27, 2020
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 9/fulltext

Based on this, I've been told that essentially:
"there is a 6x reduction in your chances of contracting Covid-19 if you use a face mask"

but I'm stuggling to find that in the article,
pretty sure I used to be a scientist once upon a time, but I'm finding it difficult to interpret this

[felter]

No I'm saying it's pretty damn convenient for a Prime Minister and a government that cannot be trusted in anything that they do or say. While I take anything that is anyway connected to them with a pinch of salt, and have great difficulty in believing it. Even when you say it has come from scientists, because right from the start Johnson has manipulated and skewered the advice from scientists in anyway he could, to try and get his way. It has just got to the point where I don't trust anything they say or do, and it is their and his past that is responsible for this. Cry wolf comes to mind.

[pjknibbs]

If they were going to fake the results, they'd do it gradually over time, not just chop 30,000 cases off and call it a day. I mean, I'm not a big fan of Boris and his clique either, but the guy isn't stupid--just morally bankrupt.

[CBJ]

I'm with the people that support face masks in-public/at-work (officially a bit belatedly it seems),
but I think (am fairly sure) there's a good factor in your favour (i.e. of you not contracting Covid from others)
by wearing a face mask (surgical multi-layer / N95),
so I don't think face-masks are all just about (potential) carriers not spreading it.

The situation for N95 masks is somewhat different. They are designed to protect the wearer, and in conjunction with some form of eye covering will of course go a long way to helping protect them from infection. For the general public we're talking about any form of face covering, often home-made. Those are pretty ineffective at protecting the wearer, but relatively effective at protecting others.

Are there any good article readers ([medical?]-scientists) here...

I didn't go through and read them, but there's a list of relevant scientific papers provided by the CDC.

[mr.WHO]

The situation for N95 masks is somewhat different. They are designed to protect the wearer, and in conjunction with some form of eye covering will of course go a long way to helping protect them from infection. For the general public we're talking about any form of face covering, often home-made. Those are pretty ineffective at protecting the wearer, but relatively effective at protecting others.

People should treat mask like equipment in RPG game, where each equipment gives you % protection, like:
Full hazmat suit - 99% protection
N95 - 80%
average mask - 40%
piece of cloth - 20%
paper towel - 1%

RNG could screw you even in hazmat suit, but when applied on major population and enough RNG rolls, even paper towel could save someone life.

That's why I'm fine with facemask & handwashing even if there are only partially successful - they are cheap & easy enough to make a difference, even if I'm aware that anyone could touch the wrong door nob in wrong time and scratch face anytime.

P.S. I' m more fine with real life RNG than game RNG. If we would have XCOM style RNG, would dig my grave already.

[Alan Phipps]

I think that one beneficial aspect of using any quality of face covering is that it may help to remind or discourage you regarding touching your face in the time between hand washes.

[pjknibbs]

I think that one beneficial aspect of using any quality of face covering is that it may help to remind or discourage you regarding touching your face in the time between hand washes.

Easier said than done when you have psoriasis and there are patches of itchy skin on your forehead...

[Masterbagger]

I think that one beneficial aspect of using any quality of face covering is that it may help to remind or discourage you regarding touching your face in the time between hand washes.

Some of the people I have observed wearing those things are clawing at them frequently. I have a habit of seeing the people around me and their body language that I can't turn off. I see people with issues breathing while wearing them. I see them being worn with the nose or mouth exposed and with the wearer pulling them away from the face to draw in air. Hand washing is an individual thing. I have never swiped a card in a store where the clerk stopped and wiped the keypad in between customers. Never been to a bathroom where the handles and sinks were wiped. Opened a lot of doors where the handles weren't wiped in between uses. I doubt any of the boxes or cans or bottles in the stores were wiped either when they were stocked. I think the perception of safety in doing the mask or hand washing is the goal and not the actual effect.

[exogenesis]

Someone pointed to the info in the recent Lancet article/paper I linked earlier
(actual text in blue)

Face mask vs no face mask (10 studies):
1.6 to 6.7 x reduction in chance of infection (or transmission)

Concluding :
Medical or surgical face masks might result in a large reduction in virus infection.
N95 respirators might be associated with a larger reduction in risk compared with surgical or similar masks
(this might seem 'obvious', but I've heard people say things like 'face masks only give 10% reduction in risk')

I guess effectiveness of (DIY) cloth coverings is totally unquantifiable,
since the variation must be huge between say a loose knitted scarf & a few layers or tightly woven cotton
(e.g. handkerchiefs, fun fact apparently the term came from two French words, couvrir = "to cover," & chef = "head")


btw the below highlighted factor surprised me :
Physical distance (9 studies) :
A physical distance of more than 1 m probably results in a large reduction in virus infection.
For every 1 m further away in distancing, the relative effect might increase 2·02 times.

& finally :
Eye protection (13 studies), (faceshield, goggles) vs no eye protection :
3.6 to 8.5 x reduction in chance of infection (or transmission)

Bit surprised there was no mention of gloves, & general hygiene was not studied.

Anyway, I'm happy I bought 3 boxes of 50 surgical masks in March (took a month to arrive fom China ),
gives me the option at least...
Maybe goggles are seriously worth considering (in certain situations) ?

Personally I've been using a door-key to enter my card pin no. in shops.,
I don't know if that keyboard has been sanitised or not

[fiksal]

Personally I've been using a door-key to enter my card pin no. in shops.,
I don't know if that keyboard has been sanitised or not

Still that's why we wash hands and don't touch our faces.

I always treat my hands as "dirty" now when outside and everything I touch. Wipe my phone clean when I get home, after washing the hands of course. Wallet and keys I don't bother - consider them always dirty and don't use when at home.



I am skeptical that it can be proven to him that the virus is both deadly, preventable, and the simple measures work. Or it's worth saving people who can die from it.

About to see if I am right