so iv heard patch 2.5 is out for devnet5 or somthing!!!! (Now With Changelog!)

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spankahontis
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Post by spankahontis »

Scoob wrote:
Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:An awful lot would need to change for Scoob's proposal to become practical for ALL factions and it becomes a bit of a chicken and the egg situation overall.

You need a working economic model for the proposal to make sense and there is no guarantee that implementing said proposal would address enough issues in the current model to make it a viable solution overall.

There are way too many variables to be able say unequivocally either way.

Let's not try to run before we can walk, the consequences to the game if Scoob's proposal proves impractical is the whole thing could break - and I think none of us really want that.
The thing is, Bernds video and various posts pre-release suggest that my proposal is what we were supposed getting. In the absence of that (currently) I'd at least hope it's still their vision. I actually did a rather leading (as in, I knew how people would vote) poll not so long ago about "real" vs Spawned ships and one of the replies mentioned that "real" was still what they were going for, they just weren't there yet.

Personally, I think the game is pretty close already. The economy is nearly there (outstanding bugs & balance aside) which is what's needed to support "real" ships rather than insta-spawns. Sure, it's a balancing act and it's a given that a degree of cheating by the AI may well be needed at times - let's say NPC Faction can "Call on reserves" if things get really critical. These "reserves" might be Ships or resources, the latter to top up a station that's been starved for an extended period for example. Also, imagine what it would do for the economy if Shipyards were regularly HUNGRY? Yes, they'd likely even want to buy those crappy drones we've all produced hundreds of! lol.

For me, Factions ordering their ships at shipyards is a key component. This is what makes ships "real", they were built using resources supplied by the economy - either with or without player input. This is one of the things that makes the economy "real" too of course. Ships build so very very fast currently (minutes, for an Arawn, that's crazy!) that, while certainly slower than insta-spawning, should still be workable. Combine that with larger ships able to jump and fly to their destinations in just a few minutes, well, once again, the game supports what's needed.

I'd like to see the AI smart enough to actually assemble fleets if that's what's needed. I.e. OL building a fleet for an attack on Xenon space for example. HoA building a fleet for the assault on PMC. The player would feel involved in the universe simply from to the emergent behaviour of DEMAND and being able to speed up production of the fleet by helping supply the Shipyard and supporting factories.

Really, making things "real" would enhance this game no end, and give us our "living, breathing universe" or get much closer at least. The basic framework is there, Shipyards DO produce ships using wares after all. It's just that other jobs in the game need to use this mechanic. In theory, working in-game supply and demand (aka "The Economy") should support this.

So, the "The whole thing could break" point is, well, it's already broken with insta-spawning as the work-around, isn't it?

I really do feel the game is pretty darn close to being able to satisfy my (and I think Egosoft too) vision of the game.

Real is good :)

Scoob.


There is serious balance problems with Shipyard manufacturing, I saw the Shipyard in Omicron constructing a Fulmekron Destroyer, it took an estimated 7 hours to build, same situation with Freighters as well, I had a CV built cause I was building a Hardware Supplier, it took 40 minutes to build.
Whether my save was bugged or there is a serious re-balancing issue needed here as Albion Ships take about a minute or less to build.
Most likely bugs are the cause.
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Post by Scoob »

spankahontis wrote: There is serious balance problems with Shipyard manufacturing, I saw the Shipyard in Omicron constructing a Fulmekron Destroyer, it took an estimated 7 hours to build, same situation with Freighters as well, I had a CV built cause I was building a Hardware Supplier, it took 40 minutes to build.
Whether my save was bugged or there is a serious re-balancing issue needed here as Albion Ships take about a minute or less to build.
Most likely bugs are the cause.
Yes, I had read posts where people have experienced that. I've only ever had a handful of ships built, but they all took just minutes. My Arawn was done in around 3 minutes if I remember correctly. There were issues where the station thought it had resources but didn't, that caused a stall, but that was a while back.

Of course, they need to ensure that such things are working correctly before they go real. In my experience ship construction has been largely trouble-free when I've tried it in the more recent version of the game.

I think a helper script would be useful on Shipyards, basically something that can detect a glitch or stall so the entire "real" economy doesn't crap out. A simple timer in effect, i.e. this is taking too long, insta-complete the build. So, a cheat in effect, but one that prevents issues in the rare situation of a glitch during ship construction.

As and aside, DeVries NOT having the infrastructure to support ship construction is perfect, and fits with the "cut off" theme. Only via player support can they truly rebuild. Though, saying that, the new inter-System traders can supply missing wares currently.

Another thing to consider: The current NPC economy is basically money free, only the player and their stations actually need funds to buy stuff. This is ok, we can assume major factions have shed loads of money / trade cash-free between their own stations. This also simplifies the Economy as I propose it, because lack of cash will never cause a stall. Ultimately, it'd be good if stations / factions had a cash balance, though I'd see a long-established station as being totally minted anyway, so cash never an issue. Basically, with everything else I've said and my assumption that this was ES's vision anyway, the lack of NPC station/faction funds makes more sense.

Scoob.
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Post by Tamina »

spankahontis wrote: There is serious balance problems with Shipyard manufacturing, I saw the Shipyard in Omicron constructing a Fulmekron Destroyer, it took an estimated 7 hours to build, same situation with Freighters as well, I had a CV built cause I was building a Hardware Supplier, it took 40 minutes to build.
Whether my save was bugged or there is a serious re-balancing issue needed here as Albion Ships take about a minute or less to build.
Most likely bugs are the cause.
Is this maybe related to the bug (don't know if this bug still exist) that shipyards can't build multiple ships at the same time? Because shipyards are using all of their drones on a single ship and when this ship is finished it doesn't allocate them to one of the other ships already in built.

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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths »

@Scoob: Don't get me wrong, I am not against the idea in principle as a long term goal - I just believe they need to be sure that the economy model is fully working in it's current form before trying to make factions depend on it for growth.

The concept is not a million miles away from the AI in Civ IV/Civ V if you ask me, but the supporting game is ALOT more complicated. Xenon or Pirate raids could wipe out a faction for instance especially since their model would naturally be self-sustaining and based on raw resource collection and distribution as opposed to financial/trading considerations.
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Post by Darrosquall »

last update six days ago, uff.
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Post by Miniding »

last update? what are you talking about?
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp »

Miniding wrote:last update? what are you talking about?
Probably Page 40:
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... &start=585
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Post by D.O.S. »

Miniding wrote:last update? what are you talking about?
I Think Darrosquall is refering to this site's info http://steamdb.info/app/2870/history/
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Post by Artean »

D.O.S. wrote:
Miniding wrote:last update? what are you talking about?
I Think Darrosquall is refering to this site's info http://steamdb.info/app/2870/history/
Yeah, my guess is that they are working on yet another beta update (2.5b5) before the PB release. I wonder what is causing them so much trouble moving forward? Save game compatibility?
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Post by Darrosquall »

Yes, I'm talking about steamdb. I surf on that page like 7 8 times in a day. :lol:
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Post by Archaeosis »

Darrosquall wrote:last update six days ago, uff.
Some files have been updated in the last 10 minutes or so. More info on SteamDB
Last edited by Archaeosis on Thu, 28. Aug 14, 12:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp »

They made a bunch of changes there just after he posted :)
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Post by Scoob »

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:@Scoob: Don't get me wrong, I am not against the idea in principle as a long term goal - I just believe they need to be sure that the economy model is fully working in it's current form before trying to make factions depend on it for growth.

The concept is not a million miles away from the AI in Civ IV/Civ V if you ask me, but the supporting game is ALOT more complicated. Xenon or Pirate raids could wipe out a faction for instance especially since their model would naturally be self-sustaining and based on raw resource collection and distribution as opposed to financial/trading considerations.
Oh yes, it's a given that any problems with the base eco need to be addressed before things can go real. I know they have, in the past, run the simulation at an accelerated speed to test longer-term economic effects in the game, though they needed to refine that as it didn't quite simulate how things worked in real-time.

My hope is that 2.5 is yet another step forward, making the base economy more robust so it becomes a stable platform for what I propose.

With any real model, there is always the risk of things breaking down as the game actually simulates what's happening. Personally, I'd quite like it if I saw the game play out as you describe, with say the Xenon managing to cripple a smaller faction. However, I do think the game would be able to manage this. Appropriate allied faction response to such an incursion - well, I think ALL factions would unite vs. the Xenon - making such total destruction unlikely, though it would make for some epic NPC on NPC action.

The thing about making things real is you do allow for unexpected emergent behaviour as the simulation runs. In a plot game you'd have safeties in place so things don't get too broken and the missions can still run as intended. However, in a "free" game I'd leave it open. Xenon build up a huge fleet and manage to destroy / take over an OL Zone? GREAT, I'd look forward to the Argon Factions response to that!

With things being "real" attrition becomes a real issue. So, any invasion is going to take losses and damage, replacement ships will NOT simply insta-spawn in the Zone as needed. They'll need to be built from resources (just raw materials for Xenon, but LOTS of them) and actually fly to the contested area. I'm getting ahead of myself now, but, done correctly, a real system can self-balance while making things interesting.

The thing is, as soon as you limit something by stopping it being real, you limit what the player can do in the game. I.e. I had an epic fleet, I could have EASILY defeated the PMC incursion into DeVries, but the game would not let me, due to a fake station (cannot be destroyed) and insta-spawning ships.

I can see how balancing things could be a bit of a mare, but the whole "real" thing was, we were told, central to the Rebirth experience, and why it took them so long to develop. NPC ships spawned out of no-where, and economy that does nothing except for the player are not good, and are, I believe, simple place-holders until things work as originally intended.

I'd go on to say, as I have in a prior thread some time back, I'm all for a "hard core" mode where destroyed surface elements on ships and stations really are destroyed and need replacing, that alone stimulating the economy and giving a demand for turrets and shield generators. Plus this makes ship capture more interesting as the more damage you do during capture the more it will cost you to get a working ship at the end of it.

Scoob.
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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths »

Personally, I do not want to see the level of REAL you are proposing. I believe it would ruin the game for me.

I would like to see better inter-faction behaviour and exchange of control of zones but I do not want X to turn into a full blown Warcraft/RT-Civ5 in space type game, which would effectively be the consequence of your proposal.

I am not against the general concept of your proposal, but I disagree on many specifics wrt "desirable results".

As for what Bernd meant by everything being real, we should bear in mind the context of the statement - which I believe was in specific regards to trade ships, the resources they carry, and the consequences of hijacking their cargo or destroying/boarding them.
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Post by Tamina »

The faction aspect is something I've been missing a lot since release. When I saw in the video how he explained that some factions are attacking other factions sometimes and that they will then maybe counterattack again which might scale to a full sector war at the end... :/
Really liked this idea but right now I have this feeling that factions are not more than just a name. They are neither communicating nor reacting to each other (also taking into account the player as his own faction) nor factions can take over other faction's zones.

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Post by Artean »

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:They made a bunch of changes there just after he posted :)
This coupled with the fact that CBJ is online again (who else could post patch notes??) are all the signs I need - PB2.5 will arrive anytime now!
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Post by Scoob »

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:Personally, I do not want to see the level of REAL you are proposing. I believe it would ruin the game for me.

I would like to see better inter-faction behaviour and exchange of control of zones but I do not want X to turn into a full blown Warcraft/RT-Civ5 in space type game, which would effectively be the consequence of your proposal.

I am not against the general concept of your proposal, but I disagree on many specifics wrt "desirable results".

As for what Bernd meant by everything being real, we should bear in mind the context of the statement - which I believe was in specific regards to trade ships, the resources they carry, and the consequences of hijacking their cargo or destroying/boarding them.
That's cool, we all have different tastes. Though I really don't consider it that complex and far far removed from the depth of a game like Civ. I'd compare it more to the early Settlers games where you gathered raw materials, which then went, potentially, through several stages to become the final item. Again, fairly simple in the scheme of things, just "complex" in the world of modern, dumbed-down games.

Re: Bernds comments: In many ways that's the key to being real and equally where the game falls down. So, I destroy ship X, and Resource Y does not make it to the destination station so it cannot produce ware Z until it gets what it needs. This bit works fine, however, this lack of resources doesn't stop the ship that should have required this ware in order to be built from insta-spawning, that's where it breaks down.

Hundreds of raw materials and intermediate products being shipped all over the game universe is great. However, neither player, nor NPC action, can stop ships insta-spawning as needed. Shipyards should be the games resource-sink, they do indeed consume a LOT of wares, but, in my game, they're ALWAYS full and ships they do produce jump to oblivion. Only the player truly uses shipyards and obtains a ship that actually used resources supplied to the station to build. I do not count the "build and jump away" mechanic used to fake working & consuming shipyard.

So, a lot of the base "real" economy is there and working, it's that final ship production vs insta-spawning step that's the most glaringly obvious faked mechanic. You know, it's ok, ES did what they had to in order to get the game out. There are numerous short-cuts taken for such things which I accept. However, as ES flesh out this game, shipyards not being the busy crucial production hub they should be devalues the entire resource chain.

If the jobs engine (or whatever ES call it now) rather than insta-spawned ships, actually requested their build at an appropriate shipyard, it would bring a lot of life back to the universe. Imagine if you will, the player satisfies the last of a set of supply runs to a Factions Shipyard. The shipyard then starts producing a ship. Said ship completes and flies to fuel up. Player lands on ship at this time and goes with it on its duties, be it a sector patrol, local station security, trade runs or forming up as part of an NPC fleet to invade Xenon space. That's real to me.

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Post by yoyolll »

I agree with Scoob on everything except NPC cash-free economy. I think it would give way to a lot of frustration if the NPCs could get pounded by your fleet for extended periods of time but still be able to make ships.

I mentioned this before, this mechanic was one of the few downsides of Mount & Blade's economy. Enemy factions could still raise giant, well trained armies even if you reduced them to one town and constantly raided every village, merchant, and townsfolk traders that had anything at all to do with them for years and years.

NPC factions still need to be limited by their income. Obviously, the player is at a huge advantage since the AI is not very good at finance, so faction economy should be "padded" a bit. More money from trade, huge discounts on raw materials, maybe even a regular income. But I think it will lead to a lot of unfairness if they simply do not have to worry about the limitations that the player must work with.

Other than that, scoob, your ideas are fantastic. That is exactly the game I was expecting when I foolishly spent $50 on it. I hope it gets to that point.
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Post by pref »

There are a lot of ways to fake things - it does not need to be a full-blown eco sim where everything happens for real. If the game fakes resources according to ingame state of factions, then it can give the player a realistic feel while it can stay less demanding with HW resources. And NPCs could operate with less influence from economy bugs.

I too think though it's really mandatory to get proper faction AI, that enables dynamic world events, that are linked to ingame standing. If this link is missing, everything is pointless, since that means player & NPC actions have no real consequences.
The only real consequence currently if player destroys a freighter, it's delivery will be delayed until another freighter respawns with about the same cargo. Advertising this as "A fully simulated economy in which every action has consequences" is ridiculous.
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Post by Scoob »

Oh I agree, yoyolll, my preference would be a 100% cash economy for NPC's ultimately. However, first step would be to get the full commodities eco up and running. Once that is as balanced as it can be, supply and demand are being met nicely by the AI etc., testing can be done giving factions / individual stations a cash budget. I think trying to tune NPC cash levels while also testing and tweaking physical production and consumption would make things overly complex. I think if the whole collect/buy/sell is working nicely, the money side should, one would hope, look after its self - subject of course to correct pricing, which is the part that would need to be tuned.

So, as "real" as it can be ideally, though I'd add the caveat that the odd "cheat" here and there to keep things moving would be acceptable, to a degree, though I'd hope only actioned rarely.

Scoob.

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