All versions of X3 WILL have Starforce Protection

[Samsonuk]

Well, whilst we're discussing it and feelings are very polarised.

Options:

Online

Offline, but Starforce

?

Neither. (I own both Steam games and, now, a SF game)

All this copy protection business is a white elephant. The actual difference on sales is probably miniscule, and in the case of starforce it's probably a negative difference. Personally, this is the first SF game I've owned, I've had no problems. But the negative press it's got has got to make a difference to sales of any product using SF.

People who want to steal a game will steal a game. Steam, SF (yes, even the latest version), whatever protection is used, within a few days/a week it's rendered useless.

As I say, it's a white elephant. Worse than that, one that only affects legitimate users. A bit like the non skippable part of a DVD movie, thieves don't see that bit!

The only people profiting from CP are the people that invent CP, and in their frenzied panic to stop 'rampant' piracy (VHS is going to end the world! Hmmm, hang on.....), publishers are in real danger of alienating the people that DO pay them.

At the end of the day, if a product gives good value for money, it'll make money, people will buy it.

It really is that simple.

People swapping games is nothing new, it's just more visual now. If someone is not going to buy a game, making it hard to copy it is not going to make them buy it!

[Chips]

Neither. (I own both Steam games and, now, a SF game)

All this copy protection business is a white elephant. The actual difference on sales is probably miniscule, and in the case of starforce it's probably a negative difference. Personally, this is the first SF game I've owned, I've had no problems. But the negative press it's got has got to make a difference to sales of any product using SF.

I refer you simply to history Doom 3

And that was BEFORE release! Whilst not every one necessarily result in a lost sale, I do not see that an arguement against trying to protect items can be logically and realistically argued when such cold hard facts stare you in the face.

[jwihardja]

Well, I enjoyed X2 a lot, and was looking forward to X3. I don't agree with a copy protection scheme where it must install a driver into my system that sticks around (even if I can remove it manually). Other game publishers are using other protection schemes (Say, safedisc) which seems to work OK on my computer without the need to install drivers.

I was actually very close to preordering, but I heard the possibility of starforce protection, and so decided to wait it out to see what Enlight would do, and instead bought civ4 for the time being. (Great game, no starforce ) To date, I have never purchased any game that had starforce protection.

Anyway, I will not be purchasing X3 unless a publisher releases a version with a different protection scheme, or a future official egosoft patch will allow me to play without the starforce driver. When either of the two happens, I will buy. Voting with the dollars.

[Zieprus]

Well I was all ready for this game until I heard about Starforce.
Well I am not touching it until either it is patched out.. or disabled or whatever.

As they say if you don't like something dont support it.. well I am not going to be buying a product with Starforce even despite that product being X3.

[Duriel_LOP]

I know you Starforce haters have an opinion and desrve to express it, but why here? this is for the discussion of the X games, not the copy protection of those games, I guessed as much that the AU version would have starforce and bugger it all I want X3 so I supported Ego and bought direct from their shop, I might do so in the future too, It will hopefully get here faster and just have the same copy protection as the AU version, QV missed out on my money for not being fast enough, but good on QV for releasing it later, QV get kudos for not being impatient, they will also get a better review when X3 is released in AU because all the problems plaguing 1.0 will be no more with the discs hopefully being 1.2 or 1.3.

[Chips]

Well, I enjoyed X2 a lot, and was looking forward to X3. I don't agree with a copy protection scheme where it must install a driver into my system that sticks around (even if I can remove it manually). Other game publishers are using other protection schemes (Say, safedisc) which seems to work OK on my computer without the need to install drivers.

Safedisc - Hardly a robust copy protection scheme at all, google to find out why!
I would assume copy protection schemes are selected for suitability or difficulty level - which is logical. That one obviously is a cinch to get around, hence why it obviously wasn't chosen as suitable.

Just because there are other solutions, doesn't mean the solutions are actaully worthy/viable.

[mjs]

Could you sue the publisher for damages. My guess would be yes

You'd be wrong. The EULA clearly indemnifies everyone against any damage caused to your computer, or any financial losses caused by their software.

In fact, almost all EULA's say that.

Hehe ... this doesn't apply in Germany because the EULA can only be read just before copying the software to HDD. In Germany, the EULA has to be readable before you open the software box. Anyway, when the software doesn't work, this is a defect that allows one to:

• give the software back to the dealer and get your money back
• or get a replacement from the dealer (fixed application)

The hint about "copy protected" on the box is not a legal way to sell defect products and restrict the users rights.

Regards,
Mark

[mjs]

People though who are paying can't even play.

Absolute nonsense.

Once again, all sorts of posts have been dragged up from all over the internet, putting the Starforce system down. I don't doubt there are users with problems, and of course, these always shout the loudest. But the fact remains, there are none here. The users complaining about it are the ones who have not bought the game and tried it.

Do you want to call me liar or thief? I had massive problems with X2's Starforce copy protection and I bought the game the legal way! At this time I had 1x CD-ROM, 1x CD-R, 1x DVD+R/W drives and none of them worked together with Starforce.

If a user has an issue with X3 and Starforce, we have the Tech Support forum.

Haha ... what a bad joke. EGOSOFT was unable to help me. The publisher sent a new key to allow me to play X2 but I was forced to leave the computer as-is. IOW: Whenever I tried to uninstall or install an application, the new key didn't work any more. Wonderful help.

So I was forced to buy a new DVD drive. Great ...

Regards,
Mark

[WebDogK9]

My concern is not with StarForce destroying my hard drives, but more with the claim that it's actually taking up resourses and is part of what makes X3 run slower than it should.

[Samsonuk]

I refer you simply to history Doom 3

And that was BEFORE release! Whilst not every one necessarily result in a lost sale, I do not see that an arguement against trying to protect items can be logically and realistically argued when such cold hard facts stare you in the face.

Cold hard facts? Where??

The cost to the game's makers, id Software, could run into hundreds of thousands of pounds in lost sales.

Note, 'could'.

Was it a quality product? (I didn't try it, I thought the original was crap! <flamesuiton> )

What were the final sales figures/profits for Doom3? Anybody have a clue?

It's hype, pure and simple.

If someone is intent on stealing something, they'll steal it, making it harder to steal won't make most thieves more inclined to buy it, if it becomes too hard, they'll just do without or move on to a new area!

You may convert a few thousand more sales, but it's entirely possible you'll lose as many through the negative inpact of the likes of SF. No one here can deny it's potentially a very intrusive and dangerous piece of software, imagine if a virus writer was to find an exploit involving it?

It really is a false economy imo, and I've yet to see cold hard facts that say otherwise.

[ThatGuyBob]

This is also my first Starforce game. My experience thus far after installing X3:
- I can no longer format CDs/DVDs. A "full erase" procedure results in a system hang.
- I can no longer burn data, any data, onto previously formatted/erased discs.
- My external USB hard drives are inaccessible.

These are NOT hardware problems. It's due to Starforce crippling the system. Reinstalling the OS from scratch makes everything better.

My solution, albeit a drastic one, was to install a dual-boot system. Two installations of XP, each in their own partition, one for playing X3 and one for everything else.

[esd]

These are NOT hardware problems. It's due to Starforce crippling the system. Reinstalling the OS from scratch makes everything better.

Then you need to get hold of Starforce, and speak to them. They may have a fix. Also, before completely reinstalling your OS, you did try the Starforce removal tool to see if that fixed the issue, didn't you?

Just to add some actual legal fact: The EULA is irrelevant as starforce installs itself without your permission PRIOR to accepting the EULA.

I have seen no evidence of this, so without providing any confirming sources, you cannot state it as "legal fact".

Do you want to call me liar or thief? I had massive problems with X2's Starforce copy protection and I bought the game the legal way! At this time I had 1x CD-ROM, 1x CD-R, 1x DVD+R/W drives and none of them worked together with Starforce.

You didn't read the rest of what has been said then? We're discussing the NEW version of Starforce (shipped with X³) which has had many many MANY less reported issues than the old one, which shipped with the EU version of X².

Incidentally, I'm pleasantly suprised it's not been neccesary to lock this thread. Let's keep it this way

[Greb Jnnayr]

Well, I enjoyed X2 a lot, and was looking forward to X3. I don't agree with a copy protection scheme where it must install a driver into my system that sticks around (even if I can remove it manually). Other game publishers are using other protection schemes (Say, safedisc) which seems to work OK on my computer without the need to install drivers.

I was actually very close to preordering, but I heard the possibility of starforce protection, and so decided to wait it out to see what Enlight would do, and instead bought civ4 for the time being. (Great game, no starforce ) To date, I have never purchased any game that had starforce protection.

Anyway, I will not be purchasing X3 unless a publisher releases a version with a different protection scheme, or a future official egosoft patch will allow me to play without the starforce driver. When either of the two happens, I will buy. Voting with the dollars.

Actaully Safedisc does install drivers called secdrv.sys, Securerom also has drivers , cant remember the name but it is also is a .sys driver.

The the newest Starforce version drivers only run when you initially start up the game, so like just a few seconds, otherwise those drivers remain inactive. Securerom has a process that is running while you are playing the game UAservice7.exe, and I think it is also running while you are not playing a game (though I am not sure about that part). Also from reading many things on the internet that Safedisc and Securerom are going towards, it sounds like you might prefer Starforce over Safedisc and Securerom.

[ched]

didn't x2 use starforce drivers? if so why all the concern this time round?

[Nestan]

Well, I enjoyed X2 a lot, and was looking forward to X3. I don't agree with a copy protection scheme where it must install a driver into my system that sticks around (even if I can remove it manually). Other game publishers are using other protection schemes (Say, safedisc) which seems to work OK on my computer without the need to install drivers.

I was actually very close to preordering, but I heard the possibility of starforce protection, and so decided to wait it out to see what Enlight would do, and instead bought civ4 for the time being. (Great game, no starforce ) To date, I have never purchased any game that had starforce protection.

Anyway, I will not be purchasing X3 unless a publisher releases a version with a different protection scheme, or a future official egosoft patch will allow me to play without the starforce driver. When either of the two happens, I will buy. Voting with the dollars.

Actaully Safedisc does install drivers called secdrv.sys, Securerom also has drivers , cant remember the name but it is also is a .sys driver.

The the newest Starforce version drivers only run when you initially start up the game, so like just a few seconds, otherwise those drivers remain inactive. Securerom has a process that is running while you are playing the game UAservice7.exe, and I think it is also running while you are not playing a game (though I am not sure about that part). Also from reading many things on the internet that Safedisc and Securerom are going towards, it sounds like you might prefer Starforce over Safedisc and Securerom.

You are almost correct, yes there is a running process that loads when you open a Securom or Safedisc game, but Starforce actually loads on windows bootup and acts as a layer between your optical drives and your IDE controller. This is why it has earned such a bad reputation for causing problems. The method used by securom and safedisc to verify the disc is valid has recently changed but they still run as a process which interfaces with windows and not a driver that interfaces with hardware. So only an application specifically designed to poll requests from Safedisc or Securom will load the process but anything polling requests from your optical drives or virtual drives (daemon tools, alcohaul) must pass through the Starforce driver in order to do so. This is why the most common starforce problems are with burning cds or trying to use rare, old, or very new optical drives.

[Greb Jnnayr]

didn't x2 use starforce drivers? if so why all the concern this time round?

Because the US version did not have Starforce, but the EU did, so there was an option for consumers. This time around there is no option, all publishers are using the Starforce protection.

[Greb Jnnayr]

You are almost correct, yes there is a running process that loads when you open a Securom or Safedisc game, but Starforce actually loads on windows bootup and acts as a layer between your optical drives and your IDE controller. This is why it has earned such a bad reputation for causing problems. The method used by securom and safedisc to verify the disc is valid has recently changed but they still run as a process which interfaces with windows and not a driver that interfaces with hardware. So only an application specifically designed to poll requests from Safedisc or Securom will load the process but anything polling requests from your optical drives or virtual drives (daemon tools, alcohaul) must pass through the Starforce driver in order to do so. This is why the most common starforce problems are with burning cds or trying to use rare, old, or very new optical drives.

Are you sure this is true for the newest version, because of everything I have read so far on the internet about the newest version is that it is only running when you run a game that uses it, otherwise it is inactive. I know what you said is true about the older versions, but from what I have read it is not true for the newest version. Sorry I can't provide you any links of the things I have read, I had to wade through alot of old stuff about the old versions before I got to information about the newest version, so I really dont want to go through that again.

{Quotiness reduced - esd}

[MILLANDSON]

To my knowledge, the new Starforce is only active when checking the disk, which for my PC is about 2-3 seconds. I have never had a problem with Starforce, wheter this version or the version with X2, never did my PC any trouble.

[esd]

Just to add some actual legal fact: The EULA is irrelevant as starforce installs itself without your permission PRIOR to accepting the EULA.

I have seen no evidence of this, so without providing any confirming sources, you cannot state it as "legal fact".

Well, having just received and installed X³, I can confirm that it doesn't install ANYTHING until you've accepted the EULA.

Installing a driver-level program requires a system reboot. You don't reboot until the first time you try and run X³. To be sure of this, I read the EULA and clicked 'cancel', then rebooted. When something changes at a driver level, Windows displays "Updating configuration" (or similar) on boot. It didn't happen.

After I had been asked to reboot after install and running, Windows displayed the config update bit on boot, showing that something had changed (Starforce had installed).

Just thought I'd make that 100% clear, incase anyone accepted what you said at face value.

When I installed, the disk drive sounded like it was going to take off. When I play, the disk-check takes all of about 5 seconds, and the disk drive isn't going ape during it either.

[cools71]

So thats why my new cutting edge pc now laggs then, and the fact I can no longer get my pc to see my psp as a removeable drive, and my cd writer now only writes at 2 speed instead of 4.

Nice one to the publishers for completely mugging us of our money for a beta and then sodding up our hardware for the privilidge. Thanks a bunch. This is the last egosoft/deepsilver release I ever buy. I hope others will join in the crusade until companies like this get it sorted and stop just taking our money cause they want to, and we are stupid enough to give it.

I am such a fool, I remember saying this at the beginning of x2 when it took me 3 months to make the game work, I thought they would have made an effort this time....it seems not.