Thursday wrote:I know this has been said in other interviews; but it atill concerns me...
we are still aiming for save game compatibility, but they way we have written The Return means that this is not a huge priority or especially relevant - the continued development of the series is more important.
I really don't like the wording "not a huge priority or especially relevant". It's not really an expansion if I have to give up everything that I did previous to it. More of a lateral move, in my mind. Personally, I think that it should be a priority, and that it IS a relevant thing. There are people that have been building up their empires for mnoths, and are suddenly being told "Oh, by the way... doing anything else may have a slightly reduced purpose in that you MAY have to do it all over again."
Totally agree with you. Im the one who spent a lot of time with X2TT and Im definitely not happy hearing about this.
I still not reached my personal aims. That would be: occupy(with stations ) at least 50 sectors(now i only "occupied" 19), create one paranid fleet(the one Xaar ordered ), destroy all split and boron colonies. So how i suppose to reach my aims if X2TR wont be compatible with old saved games? I should pretend that X2TR wont exist and wont buy it?
Please someone from Egosoft clear things up. Now im very confused cos i dont know if ill be able to play new expansion pack(with old saved games). I just know that I wont throw away everything that i reached and i know that i wont stop playing X2TT until X2TR will be available.
X-Tension did the same and you know what!!! The game was 1000% better... When it comes down to it all this 'tough' talk will evaporate as you once again become a drooling addict... There is NO ESCAPE!!!
I must say i found the Interview quite amusing. The Abyss must have spent ages practicing being vague 6 pages of questions and not a single new peice of information given away.
On the subject of save game compatibility, while i would prefer it to be possible i can already think of a number of issues-
1) One of your ships or stations occupies the same position as a new station.
2) Patch 1.4 TP style issues.
3) destroyed stations in your game being required in the Return
4) Resized sectors can cause issues with existing ships, stations etc.
5) rebalanced economy, could render player owned stations obsolete
6) Scripts (supported or otherwise) could cause havoc.
7) Rebalancing of ships may mean that existing ships may end up with 'impossible' load outs.
As has been said before, the issues behind save-game compatibility are not technical. The game is more than capable of handling it.
Honestly, though, 99% of the gameplay of any game in the X series is the early phase - the part that you've all already played in TT. If you skip directly over this to get to TR, you've lost virtually all of the fun and discovery of the game. Most of the cool little things that are being done (and the cool big things) are boring and useless for anyone more than a few hours into the game unless you've been able to use them from the very beginning. Things that are very cool and deeply affect gameplay may be all but meaningless to someone who is already "past" their effects (e.g. has a huge fleet, lots of money, etc.). This cheapens the game and is in no way a good thing.
The issue at this point is purely gameplay design really. As I've said just now and many times before, there is no technical problem aside from care and planning needed to accomplish savegame compatibility. The real question is, is it a valuable thing to have given that it also undermines a lot of gameplay. There's very little argument from that perspective in favor of compatibility - virtually none, in fact.
M. "Apoch" Lewis
EGOSOFT Programmer (and Holy Prophet of Douglas Adams)
Apoch wrote:As has been said before, the issues behind save-game compatibility are not technical. The game is more than capable of handling it.
Honestly, though, 99% of the gameplay of any game in the X series is the early phase - the part that you've all already played in TT. If you skip directly over this to get to TR, you've lost virtually all of the fun and discovery of the game. Most of the cool little things that are being done (and the cool big things) are boring and useless for anyone more than a few hours into the game unless you've been able to use them from the very beginning. Things that are very cool and deeply affect gameplay may be all but meaningless to someone who is already "past" their effects (e.g. has a huge fleet, lots of money, etc.). This cheapens the game and is in no way a good thing.
The issue at this point is purely gameplay design really. As I've said just now and many times before, there is no technical problem aside from care and planning needed to accomplish savegame compatibility. The real question is, is it a valuable thing to have given that it also undermines a lot of gameplay. There's very little argument from that perspective in favor of compatibility - virtually none, in fact.
Thought this game was about choosing our own way to play? Are we children? Do you honestly think we can't figure out for ourselves what's going to be the most fun? A poll was done recently, in which it was concluded that most people even with large empires would try 'The Return' from scratch at first to get the satisfaction of the early gameplay, then would plug our empires in later. Give the gamers some credit. Neglecting to allow this is to cheat people of the freedom to play this game as they wish. I think the real reason is it would take 'effort' to make this compatibility a fact. Undermines gameplay? Don't try to make your opinion masquerade as fact. I for one will not play 'The Return' if there is no backward savegame compatibility. For if that is so, it will be a game that is all over in a couple game days while I discover the new stuff, then I'd go back to my empire. No reason to spend money for that, when the main selling point of the X series has been the ability to build an empire over a long period of time.
Theres plenty of other games now and plenty others which will come out this or next year. I dont want to play almost the same game two times from the begining. I never do that(life is too short for doing that).
So if X2TR wont be compatible with saves from X2TT i probably wont buy that expansion. Im not some hardcore freak which feels pleasure by playing almost the same game from the begining.
Or maybe, as said above, i will try all new features in that expansion and after that I will continue building my empire in X2TT. I think that only two or three days of pleasure(i dont know how long it will take but i guess it wont take long) is not worth my money.
Apoch wrote:As has been said before, the issues behind save-game compatibility are not technical. The game is more than capable of handling it.
happy to hear that. So it wont be too hard to implement that save-game compatibility feature, yes? after that everyone should be satisfied
Honestly, though, 99% of the gameplay of any game in the X series is the early phase - the part that you've all already played in TT.
Well u can see in my sig how many days i spent with this game but only last week I tried out IONs, MDs and Mobile Driling systems for the first time! And I hope theres plenty other things which i did not discovered yet. So that means that im in an early phase, hooah!
xenon_pimp wrote:Do you honestly think we can't figure out for ourselves what's going to be the most fun?
To be perfectly blunt, I know for a fact that years of game industry research and hard experience has proven that the average game player doesn't actually know how to make a fun game - but that's not really the point here.
The dramatic "oh woe is me" posts about not buying the game over save compatibility are nice; they jerk the ol' heartstrings - no really! They do! Now if you'll excuse me, I have a meeting with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. On the moon. It's true.
Now that neither one of us is fooling the other, let's carry on
Some of the changes in TR are big - very, very big. Playing TR from the beginning is going to be radically different from playing TT from the beginning, even outside of the plot. There have been hints in a lot of the press coverage so far that this is much more like a full sequel than a true expansion. I'm sure nobody here can look at the early game from BTF and compare it to TT and say they were "almost the same game." Even BTF->XT or XT->TT were hugely different. The jump between TT and TR will again fit this pattern - it's going to be a whole new world, and whether you can believe it or not, dropping an empire into that world is going to rob you of a heck of a lot of plain old fun.
M. "Apoch" Lewis
EGOSOFT Programmer (and Holy Prophet of Douglas Adams)
I believe a post i made in a different topic has some relevence here.
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I have been thinking about save games compatability and i recon i will probably do a new game for TR because even though i have spent alot of time in X2 TT I would like to start a fresh maybe as it should be a whole new experience with alot of new things to do and play with.
I mean save games from TT to TR would be nice but i mean it will be very strange because TT is using TT game objects and universe and TR will be using new things like new stations and objects and ships so if somehow they do manage to let the players use the save in TR it will be weird.
Because it probably be very messed up as with regards to the factorys as in there will be new things to trade and different factory placements mean that the economy is going to be very different. So the stations u had that were good in TT might be really bad choices in TR and might never even turn a profit.
Also it might ruin the buildup fun of TR if u had lots of factorys, ships and loads of money from TT save in TR. I would rather play it afresh and u get the fun of stating with nothing and make that into a empire again. Using all the new stuff that wasnt in TT.
I recon if they do want to play a save game from TT into TR they should only be allowed to play it in a custom universe or something, and make the player start afresh in the story version of the game. That way you get the best of both worlds.
xenon_pimp wrote:Do you honestly think we can't figure out for ourselves what's going to be the most fun?
To be perfectly blunt, I know for a fact that years of game industry research and hard experience has proven that the average game player doesn't actually know how to make a fun game - but that's not really the point here.
I dont think that the core of X community is made of average players. X2 is too complicated for average gamers. As i browse this forum it looks like theres plenty of very experienced players. And believe me, experienced gamers knows how to make a fun game. but yeah, thats not really a point here .
The dramatic "oh woe is me" posts about not buying the game over save compatibility are nice; they jerk the ol' heartstrings - no really! They do! Now if you'll excuse me, I have a meeting with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. On the moon. It's true.
Now that neither one of us is fooling the other, let's carry on
I did not get your point(as u can see my english sux ) but if I understood right than i would say that u shouldnt be so confident. Im personaly talking very seriously.
Im not so rich to buy a lot of games so i buy only 2 or 3 a year(last year it was X2 and RBR btw). If other gamers(not amateur ones) proves that X2TR is not so cool then ill really reconsider plans of buying or not this game.
Some of the changes in TR are big - very, very big. Playing TR from the beginning is going to be radically different from playing TT from the beginning, even outside of the plot. There have been hints in a lot of the press coverage so far that this is much more like a full sequel than a true expansion. I'm sure nobody here can look at the early game from BTF and compare it to TT and say they were "almost the same game." Even BTF->XT or XT->TT were hugely different. The jump between TT and TR will again fit this pattern - it's going to be a whole new world, and whether you can believe it or not, dropping an empire into that world is going to rob you of a heck of a lot of plain old fun.
Sounds good but thats words from one of the dev . I never blindly believed in them. I prefer players opinion so ill stick to those.
Skeeter wrote:I believe a post i made in a different topic has some relevence here.
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I have been thinking about save games compatability and i recon i will probably do a new game for TR because even though i have spent alot of time in X2 TT I would like to start a fresh maybe as it should be a whole new experience with alot of new things to do and play with.
Yeah, i know about such hardcore freaks. Theres people which are planing to start X2TT from the begining and play it till X2TR arrivers. And then they are planing to start X2TR from the begining again
Theres only two explanations to that. As i said they are hardcore gamers or maybe they played X2TT not very long(lets say 15days of flying is not long time) so they can easly throw away everything they reached and try another way.
A few times you have posted then posted again minuites after even if ur the last one that posted on the topic. Simply edit the last post u made if no one has replied after you.
Skeeter wrote:A few times you have posted then posted again minuites after even if ur the last one that posted on the topic. Simply edit the last post u made if no one has replied after you.
Oh my! i did not noticed Topic review at the bottom of the screen Thought its too complicated if i want to take quotes from different messages. So i posted two in a row with quotes from different posts
natrix wrote:I dont think that the core of X community is made of average players. X2 is too complicated for average gamers. As i browse this forum it looks like theres plenty of very experienced players. And believe me, experienced gamers knows how to make a fun game. but yeah, thats not really a point here .
If I watch a lot of TV shows about doctors, does that mean I can do open-heart surgery? Of course not. Literal decades of research and trial-by-fire have gone into game design. Believe what you like - it is a rare person who truly understands how to make a fun game. The vast number of utterly failed hobbyist games is strong evidence of this. If you aren't convinced, find a hobby game development community and hang around there for a few weeks - you'll see exactly what I mean.
natrix wrote:Sounds good but thats words from one of the dev . I never blindly believed in them. I prefer players opinion so ill stick to those.
Don't forget that a huge amount of work here is done by volunteer players. I have no real interest in selling the game to you, so there's no reason not to trust that I'm being honest about the way TR is going to be. If anything, I've understated it by a long shot.
Anyways, don't buy the game if you don't want to. It's your loss in the long run.
M. "Apoch" Lewis
EGOSOFT Programmer (and Holy Prophet of Douglas Adams)
i was the first to complain about save game compatability or lack of it . but now i think differently. im gonna restart for the return . the reason ? im bored with the threat now . been there done that , i want something new, . to alleiviate my current boredom i decided to try lvs banshee script and its been an interesting diversion . lost of features . he even implemented the cloacking device for the banshee . so im not bothered if my empire is no use for the return . im up for starting from scratch
) at least 50 sectors(now i only "occupied" 19), create one paranid fleet(the one Xaar ordered 
), destroy all split and boron colonies. So how i suppose to reach my aims if X2TR wont be compatible with old saved games? I should pretend that X2TR wont exist and wont buy it? 
) but if I understood right than i would say that u shouldnt be so confident. Im personaly talking very seriously. 
