The issue of PK in X Online

b-b-q · Post by **b-b-q** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 06:46

RustiSwordz wrote:If someone has something i want in XOL, or gets in my way, or p*sses me off they can expect to burn newbie or not.

So you are saying that, if someone has something you want, you won't care how he/she feels. Alright kid, let me ask you a question : Will you want to associate with someone who is JUST like you? Online and real life? Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you'd want yourself to be your roommate.

o1derfull1 · Post by **o1derfull1** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 07:12

Normally I eschew taking what some might call the "politically incorrect" side in a debate, because that position is rarely right, and rarely wins. However, I feel I must deposit my two cents on this matter (sorry, that's like .0001 of a Euro for you Continentals, but it's the best I can do). While I do not propose to speak for anyone else, or make generalized statements concerning the intent of a game/game developers. I, however, play a game to escape the mundane and pedantic letdown of a non-Action movie life I lead. As such, I feel I should be able to act in a way, in a game, that does not necessarily indicate how I would act in real life. While I've never played an online game before, I don't see a problem in offing another player. I die all the time at the hands of the AI, why should I expect humans to treat me differently? The reverse holds true as well. I plan on conquering the X universe by force, sooner or later. My goal in XOL would be the same, but far more challenging as I'd have to take out skillful and cunning human players to do it.

Now, I escape reality by creating a persona that I think I would have, if I had the opportunites my game character had. I don't think I would rape anyone if I was Bret. So when I'm moving my character about the universe I don't try to track down the Boron princess for an enforced good time. I also dont hurt the poor peaceful Boron, as I don't think I would if I were Bret in real life.

Other people, however, like to imagine a whole other persona, one unlike them in every respect. This enables them to 'experience' the thrill of piracy or of Nova capturing even though they dont steal radios and police cars in real life. If someone wants to kill or maim or torture or sodomize someone else in a game, that's their decision, and every game needs a bad guy, he's just filling a niche. By the same token, I don't think people who find killing, maiming, tourturing, or sodomizing distasteful should be forced to watch or endure it.

Perhaps a game rating/parental warning/violence advisory/violence filter could be added to address those understandable sensibilities. No game is perfect, and no game can cater to everyone's wishes. There are bound to be people who are dissatistifed no matter what course the devs take. I, personally, would liked unlimited killing potential (with requisite reprocussions) available to all who play XOL. This means I could die too. I'm counting on it. What fun is a game when there's no fear of losing? (And what is XOL death but the ultimate 'game over'?)

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, as it was not my intent. I also probably rambled a bit, so I'm sorry if made anyone read more than they wanted to.

b-b-q · Post by **b-b-q** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 08:10

o1derfull1 wrote:Normally I eschew taking what some might call the "politically incorrect" side in a debate, because that position is rarely right, and rarely wins. However, I feel I must deposit my two cents on this matter (sorry, that's like .0001 of a Euro for you Continentals, but it's the best I can do). While I do not propose to speak for anyone else, or make generalized statements concerning the intent of a game/game developers. I, however, play a game to escape the mundane and pedantic letdown of a non-Action movie life I lead. As such, I feel I should be able to act in a way, in a game, that does not necessarily indicate how I would act in real life. While I've never played an online game before, I don't see a problem in offing another player. I die all the time at the hands of the AI, why should I expect humans to treat me differently? The reverse holds true as well. I plan on conquering the X universe by force, sooner or later. My goal in XOL would be the same, but far more challenging as I'd have to take out skillful and cunning human players to do it.

Now, I escape reality by creating a persona that I think I would have, if I had the opportunites my game character had. I don't think I would rape anyone if I was Bret. So when I'm moving my character about the universe I don't try to track down the Boron princess for an enforced good time. I also dont hurt the poor peaceful Boron, as I don't think I would if I were Bret in real life.

Other people, however, like to imagine a whole other persona, one unlike them in every respect. This enables them to 'experience' the thrill of piracy or of Nova capturing even though they dont steal radios and police cars in real life. If someone wants to kill or maim or torture or sodomize someone else in a game, that's their decision, and every game needs a bad guy, he's just filling a niche. By the same token, I don't think people who find killing, maiming, tourturing, or sodomizing distasteful should be forced to watch or endure it.

Perhaps a game rating/parental warning/violence advisory/violence filter could be added to address those understandable sensibilities. No game is perfect, and no game can cater to everyone's wishes. There are bound to be people who are dissatistifed no matter what course the devs take. I, personally, would liked unlimited killing potential (with requisite reprocussions) available to all who play XOL. This means I could die too. I'm counting on it. What fun is a game when there's no fear of losing? (And what is XOL death but the ultimate 'game over'?)

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, as it was not my intent. I also probably rambled a bit, so I'm sorry if made anyone read more than they wanted to.

Thanks for a coherent and mature reply, olderfull1. I just have one comment.

You mentioned that you join a game to escape reality, I think it is reasonable to assume that others do as well. If you wish to 'play a bad guy', which there is nothing wrong with that, you can play a bad guy with the people who welcome and enjoy those things. Nothing will stop you from attacking them or being attacked by them. However, OTHERS may simply want to escape reality by just trading or chatting or building while being left alone. Isn't it reasonable for their wishes of their own games to be respected as well?

No one is saying you can't 'be bad', just 'be bad' to/with the group of folks
who enjoy it.

bobioman · Post by **bobioman** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 08:48

(first off, i don't speak in all caps....i type certain words in caps that i want to emphasize, i don't mean that i am yelling the word, just that i am emphasizing it)

play acting raping someone in REAL LIFE is totally different than play acting rape on a fake character in a video game. I would think that most people doing that are just messing around, and mean no real harm, they are just having fun, maybe they and thier friends think that it is commical, i think it's dumb....but maybe it makes them laugh, and i think that it is okay for them to do it in a game....cause it's a game, real-life is different, and it WOULD be harrassment if they made it a point to say that they were going to come to her house in real life and rape her or something sick like that, then calling the authorities would be warranted.

again....if in a game someone says "oh i'm gonna kill ya!" you don't freak out get scared and call the cops because it is ingame, so you take it as a reference to the "game world", if they were to say "i'm going to come to your house in real life and f'ing kill you!" then you would be scared and call the cops.....i treat everything equally just like that.....if someone does something in game, then they mean it in the "game world", but if they make it obvious that they mean it to you personally and not your character, then it is a different story.

I meant no disrespect to him or his wife, I was just making the point that if a game can almost make her go into tears, then it would be better for her not to play those types of games. I did not mean that her feelings don't matter, BUT if someones feelings are hurt when you pvp them in a game, does that mean you shouldn't do it? If a vegan started to cry when they saw you eating meat, does that mean you have to stop eating meat or you are a jackass?

o1derfull1 · Post by **o1derfull1** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 08:54

You're very welcome BBQ, and danke to you as well. However, not to over simplify matters, or to trivialize the solitary trader's view, but it seems to me that if someone wanted to be "left alone" to trade or build, what better place to be alone than in a single player game? That question sounds more flippant than was intended, but the point remains.

b-b-q · Post by **b-b-q** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 08:57

o1derfull1 wrote:You're very welcome BBQ, and danke to you as well. However, not to over simplify matters, or to trivialize the solitary trader's view, but it seems to me that if someone wanted to be "left alone" to trade or build, what better place to be alone than in a single player game? That question sounds more flippant than was intended, but the point remains.

Simple : Trade with friends and with others. Found a Consortium of Teladianium. Bob's Federated Trade Guild. Meet new people. Chat.

JackScratch · Post by **JackScratch** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 09:00

I meant no disrespect to him or his wife, I was just making the point that if a game can almost make her go into tears, then it would be better for her not to play those types of games.

This wasn't proper behavior for a roleplaying game, which UO was. PvP in a pure PvP game is another matter. UO was meant to be more broad spectrum and appealing to all types of players. Didn't work that way, but it was the original intention. X2 is similar. It's not a pure combat game. Combat is just one facet of it.

You are pretty much the same as saying: If you don't want to be risk being murdered in a park, don't go to one. Being murdered was not one of the design considerations of the park, though it has the potential to be used in such a manner.

If a veegan started to cry when they saw you eating meat, does that mean you have to stop eating meat or you are a jackass?

Not really a good example. Taking your burger and shoving it in the Veegans mouth and forcing them to eat it would be a closer to the point being made.

The bottom line is this: If you're actually paying to play a game, you shouldn't be paying to be abused against your will.

bobioman · Post by **bobioman** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 09:10

If you are allowed by the game to kill someone....then there is nothing wrong in doing it. The developers could always implement an "opt out" of pvp choice, if they don't, that is thier choice, and they are allowing the players to kill who they choose....just because you don't think it is fair doesn't mean it makes whoever does it a horrible person....if you don't like it complain to the developers of the game and ask them to add some type of system where you can opt out of pvp....ultamitely the developers/company has full control over the pvp aspect, and if you don't like how the rules are setup, then your problem should be with them, not with the people who play the game.

o1derfull1 · Post by **o1derfull1** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 09:17

Don't you think that the Consortium or Trade Guild might draw unwelcome attention from, say... space bandits? or hostage takers hoping for a hefty ransom for the CEO's return? or fanatical Paranid extremeists who hate oppressive capitalism? Poor (but armed).... 'aquisitions opportunists' who would rob your stations of credits if left undefended, and then kill you so you couldn't squeal to the argon police about his dirty deed so he gets away without a rep hit?

JackScratch · Post by **JackScratch** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 09:18

'Opting out of PvP' systems was the original point and arguement of this thread. About how all PvP participation should be willing for both sides.

The Rape example was making a point of how a poorly implemented 'wrist slapping system' allowed for severe abuse. It was an extreme point to be sure. I'm fairly certain rape won't be a big issue in X Online, seeing as we all probably won't have any bodies.

"Hey stop ramming me suggestively with your Nova!!"

b-b-q · Post by **b-b-q** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 09:21

Hi bobioman,

Actually, as someone else has mentioned, even if a rape or other type of harrassments takes place over an electronic forum, be it a computer game, or email, or fax, etc. it is covered under the obscenity laws. She has the same rights and protections.

Repeatedly you and others seem to imply that just because this is a game it is okay to do something to another human being that he/she doesn't want. Why don't you try this example :

Your sister goes to the basketball court. She sits at the bench and talks to her friend. How would you feel if some punk kid walks up to her, then drags her into court for a game if she doesn't want to?

Here are some similar arguments between that kid and the excuses that some folks have given :

1. This is a basketball court. Why is she here if she doesn't want to play basketball?

2. It is part of the "realism" of having people play ball in a basketball court.

3. What's the big deal with me forcing her to play? Basketball is just a game.

3.5 Don't take being forced to play so seriously. This is just a game.

4. Anything less than full PvP basketball matches between ALL visitors is a road to a very bland basketballing experience.

5. I'm on vacation or off work, and I want to escape reality. Part of my wish for this escape is to play with her. No, it doesn't matter whether she wants to or not.

6. Forcing her to play is not illegal. (actually, it IS, and it is called harrassment if she does not given consent)

7. To your sister : "STFU and live with it. If you don't like it then stop whinning and don't come here."

Added with input from bobioman's last post :
8. If you are allowed by the basketball court to play basketball, then there is nothing wrong with her being forced to play ball.

9. The basketcourt owner can post security guards at the court. If you don't like her being forced to play, your problem is with the owner, not the people who is forcing her.

Now, you wouldn't do this to another human being in real life, would you? What makes you think you can do this to another person just because there are no faces in an online world?

b-b-q · Post by **b-b-q** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 09:24

o1derfull1 wrote:Don't you think that the Consortium or Trade Guild might draw unwelcome attention from, say... space bandits? or hostage takers hoping for a hefty ransom for the CEO's return? or fanatical Paranid extremeists who hate oppressive capitalism? Poor (but armed).... 'aquisitions opportunists' who would rob your stations of credits if left undefended, and then kill you so you couldn't squeal to the argon police about his dirty deed so he gets away without a rep hit?

That answer is up to each player, each person has to make his/her own choices. It is not up to the killer to decide who deserves to be attacked When you join a game, it does not follow that you are there for the entertainment of those who wish to attack you. Common sense really.

o1derfull1 · Post by **o1derfull1** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 09:46

[quote]It is not up to the killer to decide who deserves to be attacked [/quote]

It's not? Then who? I would think that the killer, above all else, would be the final arbiter of his intended target. Just as you wish the right to trade unhindered, I seek the right to kill unhindered. The two goals, unfortunately, appear to be mutually exclusive. Who's rights predominate?

I think we may just have to agree to disagree. It seems we approach the game, and the possibility of XOL, with completely different backgrounds and agendas.

b-b-q · Post by **b-b-q** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 09:48

o1derfull1 wrote:
It is not up to the killer to decide who deserves to be attacked
It's not? Then who? I would think that the killer, above all else, would be the final arbiter of his intended target. Just as you wish the right to trade unhindered, I seek the right to kill unhindered. The two goals, unfortunately, appear to be mutually exclusive. Who's rights predominate?

I think we may just have to agree to disagree. It seems we approach the game, and the possibility of XOL, with completely different backgrounds and agendas.

I can see that statement wasn't very clear. I meant it is not up to the killer to decide who should participate in PvP. That decision is left to each player.

I have no problem with that. Even though we disagreed, you replied in a mature manner, which is all I really hope to achieve as I dread the "don't like it then get lost" type responses. Peace dude.

bobioman · Post by **bobioman** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 13:06

NO!! that decision is made by the developers that gave the attacker the freedom to attack ANYONE.....it's an intended part of the game that you have to deal with if you want to play, peroid, if the developers didn't want you doing it then they would restrict you so you couldn't do it, it IS that plain and that simple....i don't see what the confusion is....if egosoft decides to allow me to pvp anyone i want, then i will, and i will believe that it is part of the game because the game allows it, if egosoft sets up an opt out of pvp option, then i will kill anyone i want to who has opted in to pvp, because egosoft has intended it that way, and that's what the paramaters of the game allow me to do......don't blame the players because of an option that the developers deliberately made as part of the game, if the developers didn't want it to be that way, then they wouldn't make it that way....

and to b-b-q, your example is soooooo different on so many levels then what you are using it to represent.....someone pulling you physically onto a b-ball court and MAKING you play b-ball is WAY different than CHOOSING to play a game in which pvp is an intended part.

I think a better example, is someone CHOOSING to play basket ball, but getting upset when people block thier shots, they want to have a chance to see whether or not the ball is going to go in, and they don't like people blocking thier shots, but TOO BAD, it's PART OF THE GAME, if they don't like it they can go play by themselves! (single player), or they can play a game with others that has rules that suit their wants better (a different online game)

And on the issue of what is the best solution, I believe that having seperate servers for pvp and non-pvp is the best solution.
While an "opt out" option would work....it would probably be more work for the develepors (interaction between pvp-ers and non pvp-ers..., and it would give a HUGE handicap to those people that want to build an empire AND be part of pvp, because there would be other empire builders out there that don't have to worry about loosing ships to pvp'ers.

LV · Post by LV » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 13:37

Its not hard and doesnt need 7 pages of posts with stupid references to some heinous crime.

You start as a trader (no pking allowed on you or by you)

or a trader/fighter (anything goes)

your choice and simple

Deleted User · Post by **Deleted User** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 14:37

or simply leave the game as it is, just have some people that can police and sort things out.

Monk3y · Post by **Monk3y** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 15:48

b-b-q wrote : If someone thinks "the real world" is a dangerous place, is it alright for him to break into your house and beat you up because he thinks no action = a very bland life?

lol exactly, i see your point but...could i say to the would be burgler..oh pls no i do not consent to your actions against me? no i couldn't ... what could i do as he trys to break my door down, A) defend myself B) call the police...but i could not chek a chek box to say no pvp. Everything should be worked out through the game world not check boxes.

Dastardly · Post by **Dastardly** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 17:14

PvP == Competition. PvP == Sport.

How does one go from a discussion of PvP, to a discussion of rape? And before you mention griefing, bear in mind that PKing is not necessary for someone who wants to grief.

Don't believe me? Try the Trammel Facet in UO. No PKing is allowed there. Strangely enough, that's also where most of the griefers can be found! Why? Because they can grief without fear of consequences...

JackScratch · Post by **JackScratch** » Fri, 26. Mar 04, 17:29

How does one go from a discussion of PvP, to a discussion of rape? And before you mention griefing, bear in mind that PKing is not necessary for someone who wants to grief.

Don't believe me? Try the Trammel Facet in UO. No PKing is allowed there. Strangely enough, that's also where most of the griefers can be found! Why? Because they can grief without fear of consequences...

*laugh* Like I'd ever give that company another dollar for one of their games. They lost me as a customer for life over how UO was handled.

But this isn't a discussion about PvP. It's a discussion about Non Consentual PvP. Thus the Rape reference. Pay attention.

Yes, PvP between willing participants is Competition/sport. But taking your football team into a supermarket and letting them tackle shoppers is abuse. It's a simple enough idea to grasp.

But anyway, look me straight in the eye and tell me that if a PvPer could take a moment and shoot down another player for the one unit of Maja Snails in his hold for less cost than the snails would resell for, he wouldn't do it without a second thought. Hey for the attacker it's just money right?

But for the new player starting out, it's grief.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

The issue of PK in X Online