[MOD] Miscellaneous OOZ Combat Tweaks

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Simoom
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Post by Simoom »

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:As much as I love the Sucellus, I think the idea was that it was meant to underpowered for XL in the sense it is an old ship design and is relatively cheap (28% less hull cost than a Taranis and 56% less after buying weapons). With such a buff, should the hull cost rise?
Just want to chip in my two cents since I did a lot of calculations on capital ship firepower for my XR capital ships guide.

Price =/= Combat Effectiveness. A good example is the Arawn, which is substantially more expensive than the Taranis, but is not at all more combat-effective (the Taranis actually does a lot more damage IZ because the Arawn has no anti-capital weaponry. A lot of Arawn's DPS output comes from Hailstorm turrets, and those do not come into play in capital-VS-capital combat).

The Arawn was supposed to be powerful due to its drone capacity, but again, the way the game is currently designed, it makes no difference if you are carrying 50 drones or 300 (talking about IZ of course) - the game engine simply won't launch that many. So it's not like the Arawn's 300 drones is an advantage in any way.

What I am trying to say is just because the Sucellus is cheaper, doesn't mean it should be a less effective ship in terms of combat. In fact if it can bring the IHC to bear on a target, it is very much the most destructive ship in the game. A single IHC is more powerful than the broadside from a Fulmekron.

I understand the argument that this seems "unbalanced" in terms of cost VS performance, but few things in XR is balanced IMO. :P
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Simoom
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Post by Simoom »

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:Well-spotted.

I read recently that Xenon Is (not sure about Ks, maybe the same) are spawned with a single Xenon pilot with mediocre skills. Given their position at the top of the food chain, would it be possible to give them a more effective set of skill values? Perhaps a mix of 4s and 5s?
I was the one who posted that, haha. I do want to correct one thing - it seems like the Xenon "crew" is actually a crew of three, just like in human ships. But skill level is, like I said, mediocre.

Below is the stats of a Xenon I crew that spawned in my game.

Code: Select all

<connection connection="tempengineerconnection">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x1552e]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x15527]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="boarding" value="1"/>
<skill type="combat" value="2"/>
<skill type="engineering" value="1"/>
<skill type="management" value="1"/>
<skill type="morale" value="2"/>
<skill type="navigation" value="2"/>
</skills>
<entity type="engineer" control="1"/>
<connections/>
</component>
</connection>
<connection connection="connection05">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x1552f]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x15527]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="combat" value="3"/>
<skill type="leadership" value="5"/>
<skill type="management" value="1"/>
<skill type="science" value="1"/>
</skills>
<entity type="commander" control="1"/>
<tolerance>
<booster faction="teladi" value="-1" time="435364.291" delay="5" decayrate="0.25"/>
<booster faction="teladidrugrunner" value="-0.25" time="477294.19" delay="5" decayrate="0.25"/>
</tolerance>
<blackboard>
<value name="$escortgroup" type="group" value="1625"/>
</blackboard>
<connections/>
</component>
</connection>
<connection connection="connection02">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x15530]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x15527]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="combat" value="2"/>
<skill type="engineering" value="2"/>
<skill type="leadership" value="2"/>
<skill type="management" value="3"/>
<skill type="navigation" value="1"/>
<skill type="science" value="3"/>
</skills>
<entity type="defencecontrol" control="1"/>
And this is from a Xenon K:

Code: Select all

<connection connection="tempengineerconnection">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x5f17]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x5f10]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="boarding" value="1"/>
<skill type="engineering" value="1"/>
<skill type="leadership" value="1"/>
<skill type="management" value="2"/>
<skill type="morale" value="1"/>
<skill type="navigation" value="3"/>
<skill type="science" value="2"/>
</skills>
<entity type="engineer" control="1"/>
<connections/>
</component>
</connection>
<connection connection="connection05">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x5f18]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x5f10]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="combat" value="1"/>
<skill type="leadership" value="4"/>
<skill type="morale" value="3"/>
</skills>
<entity type="commander" control="1"/>
<tolerance>
<booster faction="player" value="-0.776072" time="495337.242" delay="5" decayrate="0.25"/>
</tolerance>
<blackboard>
<value name="$escortgroup" type="group" value="1795"/>
</blackboard>
<connections/>
</component>
</connection>
<connection connection="connection02">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x5f19]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x5f10]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="combat" value="1"/>
<skill type="leadership" value="2"/>
<skill type="management" value="2"/>
<skill type="navigation" value="1"/>
<skill type="science" value="3"/>
</skills>
<entity type="defencecontrol" control="1"/>
I checked the stats of several Xenon K's and it looks like there is some variation in terms of the Xenon crew stats, but most skills are between 1 to 3.

So yeah, if we actually want Xenons to be extremely dangerous in terms of skill level, modding is needed.
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Simoom wrote:I was the one who posted that, haha. I do want to correct one thing - it seems like the Xenon "crew" is actually a crew of three, just like in human ships. But skill level is, like I said, mediocre.
Thanks for clarifying.
Simoom wrote:Below is the stats of a Xenon I crew that spawned in my game.

Code: Select all

<connection connection="tempengineerconnection">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x1552e]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x15527]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="boarding" value="1"/>
<skill type="combat" value="2"/>
<skill type="engineering" value="1"/>
<skill type="management" value="1"/>
<skill type="morale" value="2"/>
<skill type="navigation" value="2"/>
</skills>
<entity type="engineer" control="1"/>
<connections/>
</component>
</connection>
<connection connection="connection05">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x1552f]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x15527]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="combat" value="3"/>
<skill type="leadership" value="5"/>
<skill type="management" value="1"/>
<skill type="science" value="1"/>
</skills>
<entity type="commander" control="1"/>
<tolerance>
<booster faction="teladi" value="-1" time="435364.291" delay="5" decayrate="0.25"/>
<booster faction="teladidrugrunner" value="-0.25" time="477294.19" delay="5" decayrate="0.25"/>
</tolerance>
<blackboard>
<value name="$escortgroup" type="group" value="1625"/>
</blackboard>
<connections/>
</component>
</connection>
<connection connection="connection02">
<component class="computer" macro="character_xenon_macro" connection="commandroomslot" owner="xenon" id="[0x15530]">
<listeners>
<listener listener="[0x15527]" event="killed"/>
</listeners>
<skills>
<skill type="combat" value="2"/>
<skill type="engineering" value="2"/>
<skill type="leadership" value="2"/>
<skill type="management" value="3"/>
<skill type="navigation" value="1"/>
<skill type="science" value="3"/>
</skills>
<entity type="defencecontrol" control="1"/>
Yeah, that looks consistent with all of the crews of all of the ships spawned. Only engineer and specialist stats are specified, and those are:

Code: Select all

      <skill type="boarding" min="0" max="3" />
      <skill type="combat" min="0" max="3" />
      <skill type="engineering" min="2" max="5" />
      <skill type="leadership" min="1" max="4" />
      <skill type="management" min="1" max="4" />
      <skill type="morale" min="1" max="4" />
      <skill type="navigation" min="1" max="4" />
      <skill type="science" min="1" max="4" />
for engineers, and:

Code: Select all

      <skill type="boarding" min="0" max="3" />
      <skill type="combat" min="0" max="3" />
      <skill type="engineering" min="2" max="5" />
      <skill type="leadership" min="1" max="4" />
      <skill type="management" min="1" max="4" />
      <skill type="morale" min="0" max="3" />
      <skill type="navigation" min="1" max="4" />
      <skill type="science" min="2" max="5" />
for specialists.

It looks like supp2 is working. With Xenon 1.0 (without the supplement):

Code: Select all

Time            Attacker                Target                  Quadrant        Max AttStr      Adj AttStr      DO rating       Target Shields  Target Hull
522361.034      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8960555         799644
522363.007      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44996448        22798434
522363.422      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8914480         799643.625
522366.701      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44992256        22798434
522367.002      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8844603         799643.313
522368.887      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8808793         799643.313
522369.395      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44989264        22798432
522370.965      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44987556        22798432
522371.931      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8748581         799643.313
522372.627      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44985724        22798430
522375.422      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8679317         799643.125
522375.811      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44982152        22798430
522379.498      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8599230         799643.063
522386.451      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8521980         799643.063
522389.334      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44995932        22798430
522391.836      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44993156        22798430
522392.306      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8475985         799642.75
522395.283      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44989308        22798430
522395.758      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8408379         799642.75
522399.038      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44985072        22798430
522405.332      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44980956        22798430
522407.768      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44978280        22798428
522410.277      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8363875.5       799642.688
522411.819      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44973692        22798428
522414.097      XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8287965.5       799642.688
522415.427      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44969644        22798428
522416.31       XEN Destroyer I         CAR Marauder Phoenix    BLU             57712.797       20199.48        15              8245620.5       799642.5
522418.927      CAR Marauder Phoenix    XEN Destroyer I         BLD             3045            1157.1          18              44965696        22798428
With Xenon v2.0:

Code: Select all

Time            Attacker                Target                  Quadrant        Max AttStr      Adj AttStr      num drones      DO/Pilot rating Target Shields  Target Hull
193.259         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              8487980         799999.813
195.901         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              8330844.5       799999.813
199.487         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              8104763         799999.688
202.573         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              7912078.5       799999.688
206.428         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              7668779.5       799999.688
210.573         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              7415806         799999.688
213.703         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              7217972.5       799999.625
216.914         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              7015716.5       799999.625
230.223         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              6788418.5       799999.5
236.705         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              6556471.5       799999.5
239.458         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              6381645         799999.5
243.23          XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              6142634.5       799999.5
246.837         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              5921506.5       799999.5
249.78          XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              5738174.5       799999.5
252.092         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              5592923.5       799999.5
255.581         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              5370841         799999.5
258.004         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              5217575.5       799999.313
260.79          XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              5041749         799999.313
264.455         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              4809961         799999.188
272.825         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              4699522.5       799999.188
276.83          XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              4447533.5       799999
280.605         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              4207852         799998.875
284.474         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              3962999.5       799998.875
288.103         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              3789244.5       799998.875
292.163         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              3644475.25      799998.875
295.688         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              3421368.75      799998.813
299.056         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              3260871         799998.75
301.11          XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              3136891.75      799998.75
304.905         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              3002972.5       799998.75
315.113         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              2925144.5       799998.625
318.021         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              2823234.5       799998.625
322.102         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              2630008.5       799998.5
327.252         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              2395978         799998.5
329.737         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              2278493.75      799998.5
332.961         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              2076733.625     799998.5
335.073         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              1979937.125     799998.5
337.789         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              1808901.5       799998.5
340.513         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              1681669         799998.5
343.474         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              1540164.625     799998.438
346.67          XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              1338907.75      799998.438
349.938         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              1132768.5       799998.375
351.373         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              1067400.75      799998.375
355.118         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              829696.125      799998.375
365.475         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              608765.125      799998.375
368.246         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              434436.5        799998.375
372.004         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              197869.609      799998.375
375.716         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              0               762755.5
378.798         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              0               567013.875
382.618         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              0               324702.375
386.324         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     FLU             58823.016       65293.547       91              0               89263.844
387.503         UA Marauder Phoenix     XEN Destroyer I         CCD             0               0               23              45000000        22800000
389.994         XEN Destroyer I         UA Marauder Phoenix     ---             58823.016       65293.547       91              0               0
poor Phoenix.

If anyone wants just the supplement, you can download the mod and extract to your extensions folder, download and extract MOC-T_supp2_v0.01 to your extensions folder, and delete everything except extensions\w.e_MOC-T\content.xml and extensions\w.e_MOC-T\libraries\characters.xml
Sparky Sparkycorp
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp »

Simoom wrote:I was the one who posted that, haha.
Aha! That makes sense; you've been posting a lot of interesting things in the last few days :)
Simoom wrote:
Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:As much as I love the Sucellus, I think the idea was that it was meant to underpowered for XL in the sense it is an old ship design and is relatively cheap (28% less hull cost than a Taranis and 56% less after buying weapons). With such a buff, should the hull cost rise?
Just to be clear, as mentioned later in the thread, that comment was based on a misunderstanding that I thought the Sucellus was given greater IHC range and greater overall firepower for no extra cost. I think that is a reasonable basis for considering increasing costs but as noted by Walker, the overall DPS was unchanged.
Simoom wrote: Just want to chip in my two cents since I did a lot of calculations on capital ship firepower for my XR capital ships guide.

Price =/= Combat Effectiveness. A good example is the Arawn, which is substantially more expensive than the Taranis, but is not at all more combat-effective (the Taranis actually does a lot more damage IZ because the Arawn has no anti-capital weaponry. A lot of Arawn's DPS output comes from Hailstorm turrets, and those do not come into play in capital-VS-capital combat).
...
What I am trying to say is just because the Sucellus is cheaper, doesn't mean it should be a less effective ship in terms of combat. In fact if it can bring the IHC to bear on a target, it is very much the most destructive ship in the game. A single IHC is more powerful than the broadside from a Fulmekron.

I understand the argument that this seems "unbalanced" in terms of cost VS performance, but few things in XR is balanced IMO. :P
I agree price may not always equate to combat effectiveness in practice, but all things being equal, I think it is a reasonable thing to aim for. In the Sucellus's case, I wouldn't mind it being relatively cost inefficient given the lore around DV. Whereas at the moment, if the IHC is able to applied relatively often during a fight, the vanilla Sucellus is perhaps one of the most cost-effective ships in terms as described below.

Excluding Hailstorms and combat drones, and with some a few assumptions*, the Taranis has 17% more kDPS/Cr. In terms of toughness, the Arawn has 46% more kEHP/Cr (19% more shields per credit), which is significant due to capitals tending to die before losing all active weapons (and shields recharging faster).

The Taranis probably has a more effective frontal assault due to the Jets (although A.I. doesn't use that well) whereas the DPS projection from Arawns is more diffuse and thus resistance to a face full of Balor missiles. Overall, excluding combat drones, I would suggest that Arwans are more cost-effective or at least as good.

*Average ware prices, overall crew costs of 255k, 5 construction drones.


Edit: Updated stats to add percentages and to incorporate some corrected weapon stats.
Last edited by Sparky Sparkycorp on Tue, 24. Feb 15, 23:20, edited 1 time in total.
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Just recently got to DeVries again in my game, and I was very surprised to find that the Sucellus only costs about as much as a Stromvok. Didn't do any math comparing the two to Albion or Omicron Lyrae ships, but one's clearly way too expensive, or one's way too cheap. With supp1 installed, I bought a Sucellus for around 20 million. Seeing as how I used to sell Titurels for around 10 million apiece when money was running short, and an Arawn cost around 50 million (at the time. No idea how average that was, but the shipyard was pretty well stocked at the time), 20 million for a Sucellus seems pretty reasonable for an old tech ship that'll take forever to repair if her paint ever gets scratched.

And the Sucellus still sucks IZ with the vanilla movement scripts, sad to say. Testing a mini-script with lots of hints from cicero111's and Mad_Joker's work to try and have it and the Balor keep their distance and at least try and keep the pointy-end pointed in the right direction.
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Simoom
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Post by Simoom »

w.evans wrote:Just recently got to DeVries again in my game, and I was very surprised to find that the Sucellus only costs about as much as a Stromvok. Didn't do any math comparing the two to Albion or Omicron Lyrae ships, but one's clearly way too expensive, or one's way too cheap. With supp1 installed, I bought a Sucellus for around 20 million. Seeing as how I used to sell Titurels for around 10 million apiece when money was running short, and an Arawn cost around 50 million (at the time. No idea how average that was, but the shipyard was pretty well stocked at the time), 20 million for a Sucellus seems pretty reasonable for an old tech ship that'll take forever to repair if her paint ever gets scratched.

And the Sucellus still sucks IZ with the vanilla movement scripts, sad to say. Testing a mini-script with lots of hints from cicero111's and Mad_Joker's work to try and have it and the Balor keep their distance and at least try and keep the pointy-end pointed in the right direction.
Yeah, with the vanilla capital script the Sucellus is a very useless ship. It fires its IHC may be... for 5 seconds out of the whole battle (when it is approaching target).

Earnestly waiting for the Captain AI Overhaul mod to be updated. :(
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Post by w.evans »

Simoom wrote:Earnestly waiting for the Captain AI Overhaul mod to be updated. :(
Still works, last I checked (3.20ish). Just didn't pass the aicompat check since aicompat.xml was recently changed so I uninstalled it because I don't fully understand what that means. (Better a safe idiot than an idiot with an irreparably broken save!) I do hope that cicero111 checks back sometime soon, but last word was that he got some fun new toys for Christmas so those are keeping him busy.
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp »

w.evans wrote:Just recently got to DeVries again in my game, and I was very surprised to find that the Sucellus only costs about as much as a Stromvok. Didn't do any math comparing the two to Albion or Omicron Lyrae ships, but one's clearly way too expensive, or one's way too cheap.
Hiya,

Perhaps the following could help. Ware costs are for vanilla 3.50b1. Where a ship cannot be purcased, hull cost was taken as 50% of the in-game listed price as average cost of wares for purchasable XL ships are 50% of their listed average price. Ragefire and Xenon Plasma/MA assumed to cost 2x regular Plasma/MA. Xenon HIT/MA assumed to cost Their 2x regular HIT/MA. 255.6 Cr of crew and 5 construction drones in those with bays.

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XL Hull             M Cr      M HP     SHP%    k DPS    k HP/Cr    k DPS/Cr    k DPS/Cr>2km    k DPS/Cr>3km
Arawn               38.9      9.60     37.5    227      247        5.84        4.11            2.03
Condor              20.0      2.00     60.0    55.6     100        2.77        2.77            2.22
Fulmekron           45.1      9.60     12.5    384      213        8.51        7.77            5.32
Gangrene Chaser     25.7      6.10     29.5    92.4     237        3.60        3.60            3.60
Marauder Phoenix    37.1      1.70     52.9    80.7     45.8       2.17        2.17            2.17
Olmekron            28.7      6.40     18.8    255      223        8.90        8.32            6.78
Phoenix             27.4      2.70     66.7    55.6     98.6       2.03        2.03            1.63
Sucellus*           13.6      3.60     25.0    145      264        10.6        9.96            8.89
Taranis             23.0      3.90     46.2    157      169        6.83        5.37            4.73

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L Hull              M Cr      M HP     SHP%    k DPS    k HP/Cr    k DPS/Cr    k DPS/Cr>2km    k DPS/Cr>3km
Balor               4.42      1.10     54.5    21.9     249        4.95        4.95            4.95
Heavy Sul           10.2      2.50     12.0    39.9     246        3.93        3.93            2.48
Light Sul           7.80      1.90     15.8    27.0     244        3.43        3.46            2.51
Stromvok**          7.68      2.00     30.0    35.7     260        4.60        4.60            3.62
Xenon K             16.2      4.70     38.3    52.2     290        3.22        3.22            3.22
M Cr: Total credit cost of hull and equipment
M HP: Total Hit Points
SHP%: Shield HPs as % of total HP
k DPS: Turret Damage Per Second
k DPS/Cr>2km: DPS/Cr with range over 2km
k DPS/Cr>3km: DPS/Cr with range over 3km
M: Millions
k: Thousands

* Vanilla A.I. caveats for IHC, which is assumed to work when CAIO mod is used.
** I think a Stromvok has a 600k shield but I'm not positive and didn't find any in-game to check.
Last edited by Sparky Sparkycorp on Fri, 20. Mar 15, 10:14, edited 2 times in total.
w.evans
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Post by w.evans »

Wow. Thanks, Sparky! It does look like the Sucellus is way underpriced then, both from hull and shield per cred, and from dps per cred. Of course that has to be weighed against its inability to carry drones. They still sort of suck IZ, but they have more weight OOZ, and it will need considerable down-time between sorties making its use as a regular patrol ship limited. More of a specialized heavy hitter thereby limiting the usefulness of fielding them in numbers.

One thing to note: OOZ looks like it's alpha strike per tick; so slow-firing but heavy hitting guns have a big advantage OOZ to fast-firing, low damage per hit but high dps weapons. Important to note since most ships will be OOZ most of the time.
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Post by oliverjanda »

w.evans wrote:
Simoom wrote:Earnestly waiting for the Captain AI Overhaul mod to be updated. :(
Still works, last I checked (3.20ish). Just didn't pass the aicompat check since aicompat.xml was recently changed so I uninstalled it because I don't fully understand what that means. (Better a safe idiot than an idiot with an irreparably broken save!) I do hope that cicero111 checks back sometime soon, but last word was that he got some fun new toys for Christmas so those are keeping him busy.
I read somewhere that it works as long as you delete the fight.attack.object.capital.xml script because of some drone spamming problem.
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp »

Kind advice, thank you. I think that was the similarly-named Captain and Defense Officer AI mod, which this other, newer one was inspired by. If you've not seen it, the new one is worth checking out at the following link :)

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=373591

Walker, you're most welcome. I've similar stats for trading and mining ships somewhere, but more in terms of cargo/Cr and mining rate/Cr than DPS. Will dig those out this evening and post them somewhere.
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Post by oliverjanda »

Didn't know that mod. thanks.
how about using only the move.attack.object.capital.xml ?
Seems to be most wanted part anyway...
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Post by w.evans »

oliverjanda wrote:Didn't know that mod. thanks.
how about using only the move.attack.object.capital.xml ?
Seems to be most wanted part anyway...
Yeah, that's the most interesting part of the mod. Unfortunately, that's precisely the part that caused aicompat issues. I think it might be harmless though, and adding sinceversion="[some number]" to all of the blocking nodes (move_to jump, etc.) might clear them up.

Staying off-topic, but on-topic with this most interesting of digressions, this is fun:

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<do_if value="(this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_l_single_attack_ship_macro} or this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_red_destroyer_macro}) and (this.combinedskill ge 100)">
  <do_if value="this.ship.distanceto.{$target} lt (this.ship.maxcombatrange.all * 0.75f)">
    <get_safe_pos result="this.$FiringPos" zone="$target.zone" space="$target.zone" radius="0m" object="$target" min="this.ship.maxcombatrange.all * 0.75f" max="this.ship.maxcombatrange.all" />
    <jump object="this.ship" zone="$target.zone" skipcharge="true" ignorefuel="false" sinceversion="1">
      <position value="this.$FiringPos"/>
      <orientation refobject="$target" orientation="look_at"/>
    </jump>
  </do_if>
  <do_elseif value="this.ship.distanceto.{$target} gt this.ship.maxcombatrange.all">
    <get_safe_pos result="this.$FiringPos" zone="$target.zone" space="$target.zone" radius="0m" object="$target" min="this.ship.maxcombatrange.all * 0.75f" max="this.ship.maxcombatrange.all" />
    <jump object="this.ship" zone="$target.zone" skipcharge="true" ignorefuel="false" sinceversion="1">
      <position value="this.$FiringPos"/>
      <orientation refobject="$target" orientation="look_at"/>
    </jump>
  </do_elseif>
</do_if>
If anything gets close, they jump away with their nose pointed at the target! Not really safe to play with, though, since it pretty much makes Sucellus and Balors untouchable.
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Post by oliverjanda »

Nice idea but i (personally) dislike the idea of an insector jump as it does not seem lore friendly anymore. Boosting would be an alternative.

btw: The CDOAIO version does not seem to do this
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Post by w.evans »

oliverjanda wrote:Nice idea but i (personally) dislike the idea of an insector jump as it does not seem lore friendly anymore. Boosting would be an alternative.

btw: The CDOAIO version does not seem to do this
Agreed, actually. Just got really frustrated with trying to keep my long-range plunkers pointed toward the target, and this works.

The Sucellus seems to maneouver extremely slowly. cicero111's code actually does a pretty good job of orienting the Sucellus to fire, but I remember it having trouble tracking a target moving perpendicular to its orientation. Probably simply because it turns so slowly.

Extending the IHC range further helps since the angle at which the ship has to turn from a longer range is smaller. Got some ok results with the IHC range increased to around 24000. Still misses a lot though since the projectile's so slow.

Never actually looked at the CDOAIO code. I jumped into X:R too late, and didn't try and start playing with code until still later. The short time that I had it running was fun, though.
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Post by oliverjanda »

the move.attack.object.capital.xml of CDOAIO is a bit overloaded with the skill stuff but does not look bad. i think the desired attackrange is 3 km. unfortunately, I could not take a closer look as I'm too busy (at work atm).

if turning is a problem how about flying backwards or stafing at the same time?

edit: why should it always be able to track its target, in the first place?
Maybe the slow turning is a feature to make it not into a gigantic sniper killing machine!?
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Post by w.evans »

oliverjanda wrote:edit: why should it always be able to track its target, in the first place?
Maybe the slow turning is a feature to make it not into a gigantic sniper killing machine!?
It probably shouldn't. :)
oliverjanda wrote:if turning is a problem how about flying backwards or stafing at the same time?
I vaguely remember cicero111 saying that there were problems with that. Worth a try, though. Thanks!
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Post by Xenon_Slayer »

w.evans wrote:Therefore, turrets do no damage against stations OOZ.
Heh, whoops. I was accidently passing in the size of the station when I should have been passing in the speed (obviously 0 for stations). So the OOS code thought they were pretty nimble. :roll:

Thanks for the find.
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Post by w.evans »

Xenon_Slayer wrote:
w.evans wrote:Therefore, turrets do no damage against stations OOZ.
Heh, whoops. I was accidently passing in the size of the station when I should have been passing in the speed (obviously 0 for stations). So the OOS code thought they were pretty nimble. :roll:

Thanks for the find.
He he. Glad to help.

Shouldn't this override that though?

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<replace sel="/parameters/lowattentioncombat/attack/@minspeed">100</replace>
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Post by Xenon_Slayer »

That's factored in later. But as the size could be something like 25000m but misinterpreted as 25000m/s, the minspeed setting wouldn't have mattered as it was so low.

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