For whole "target audience" and mr. L Bernd

[Santi]

I can cook quite well. Yet when I go to a restaurant, I have this weird expectation, NOT TO participate in the meal preparation. I can drive a car, and yet I expect the taxi driver to drive. I can clean windows, and still expect the windows cleaner to do his job.
I am programmer and UX designer, yet I do not expect to participate in the design or development of any software I buy, even less software which is supposed to entertain me.

So you don't like to Mod, fair enough. Could have say so straight away, of course in the spirit of things, my homemade beef and green peppers in black bean sauce is legendary in my workplace and gotten myself in good standing with many a good looking lass.

[Commonsens]

@repk32: Actually, as a modder myself, quite a significant part of modding is play

you talk from modder point of view, i talk from customer point of view, so here is the difference.

customers are interested to get a good product. just get, not to participate in the development

I can cook quite well. Yet when I go to a restaurant, I have this weird expectation, NOT TO participate in the meal preparation. I can drive a car, and yet I expect the taxi driver to drive. I can clean windows, and still expect the windows cleaner to do his job.
I am programmer and UX designer, yet I do not expect to participate in the design or development of any software I buy, even less software which is supposed to entertain me.

Exactly!

I miss the good old days when we got actually PAID, in a from or another, to troubleshoot/repair/beta test a game. Pea brains like santi can't even see that he got it up the arse..and there's no reach around! (Should invite him to repair all the broken stuff i got for free: he is satisfied with just getting "credits" for it!)
As per the "fun" factor of modding: no denying that..but its even MORE fun to "improve" and "mods" a game that actually works...not just chasing your tail to make it work!

[Santi]

Oh man will you listen to yourself.
I hate stupid analogies, but I don;t see any other way of putting it.
If Ford released a new car, and the reviewers could not get it to start. Should they then write an article telling people that the car provided did not start?

Do you sell cars?, because if the car doesn't start, I bloody well expect the reviewer to say so, in bold, underlined, cursive and capital letters, that if I buy this car, it will not start. What I don't want is a 30 out of 100.

[steelgrey75]

His point is a review model that game critics used to stick to, some time ago. If you couldn't play the game as intended, you said so on your review, bit like:

X Rebirth Review: At present we cannot make a review because the game is not working and we are unable to complete the plot. A proper review will be done when we receive a game that works.

That was a honest review and one where you know where you stand for regarding the game.

Oh man will you listen to yourself.
I hate stupid analogies, but I don;t see any other way of putting it.
If Ford released a new car, and the reviewers could not get it to start. Should they then write an article telling people that the car provided did not start? Also saying they will check with Ford again in a few months time and see if they have got it working.
No they should not, they should write a review of the car that was provided to them that very day. If the car did not work then the public should be told. Anything that is on sale to the public is perfectly sound for a review, whether good or bad. If the car was not on sale for 3 months, then perfectly justifiable to review when it is released.
Its totally irrelevant what might happen in the future. Maybe they will review it again, maybe not, but the review of the first car MUST stand.
I hate using cars, you could use anything, any product on sale today, the same rule applies to all of them. If an item is reviewed it is reviewed as it is right there and then, with no provisons for what might or might not happen in the future. What if Egosoft suddenly went bump overnight? Then there won't be any improvements made by them will there? So the future is irrelevant, only here and now matters when it comes to reviewing an item.

[Santi]

Oh man will you listen to yourself.
I hate stupid analogies, but I don;t see any other way of putting it.
If Ford released a new car, and the reviewers could not get it to start. Should they then write an article telling people that the car provided did not start?

Do you sell cars?, because if the car doesn't start, I bloody well expect the reviewer to say so, in bold, underlined, cursive and capital letters, that if I buy this car, it will not start. What I don't want is a 30 out of 100.

[Trialbyfire]

At least one of those reviews was done by Roguey, who really is little more than another pissed-off fan who appears to have violated his NDA as a beta tester by making the comments he has for the purpose of his own glory.

How many of the other reviews can be considered "objective" is difficult to say, because I'm not sure if it's possible to be objective in the first place about such things. However, objective or not, the overwhelming majority of reviewers is clearly leaning in the negative direction.

From reading this thread, it appears there are some players who don't mind ships repeatedly banging themselves inanely against large objects and all the other bugs, and don't seem to mind the arcade-like UI etc., etc. That's OK, but it's obvious they are in the minority (not saying that's a bad thing).

My guess, is this game would still have mostly poor reviews even if it had been released without the most glaring bugs, and it will continue having poor reviews even once those bugs are fixed.

[dzhedzho]

I can cook quite well. Yet when I go to a restaurant, I have this weird expectation, NOT TO participate in the meal preparation. I can drive a car, and yet I expect the taxi driver to drive. I can clean windows, and still expect the windows cleaner to do his job.
I am programmer and UX designer, yet I do not expect to participate in the design or development of any software I buy, even less software which is supposed to entertain me.

So you don't like to Mod, fair enough. Could have say so straight away, of course in the spirit of things, my homemade beef and green peppers in black bean sauce is legendary in my workplace and gotten myself in good standing with many a good looking lass.

Because it's not what I said.
I like cooking, and I am capable. Yet I expect when I pay someone to do it, that they actually do.
Is this so unreasonable?
I don't like fixing other people's ****-ups. And honestly, modding the UI of any X game is not something I like, as there isn't a good way to do it. (Or maybe there is but I haven't found any documentation about it)

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

it appears there are some players who don't mind ships repeatedly banging themselves inanely against large objects and all the other bugs

Actually, I think you missed the point that it is not that the bugs are not minded but rather we believe they will be fixed... a subtle difference perhaps but it is there.

[Terre]

Personal insults are against the first rule of these forums, please keep the discussions on topic.

Forum Rule. 1 "Personal abuse directed towards another forum member is not permitted under any circumstances. If you are offended by another user's post or conduct, try to contact that user directly to peacefully resolve the issue. In most cases a single PM can solve misunderstandings quickly. If you do not succeed, please contact a moderator for assistance. Do not respond in kind."

[kurush]

You aren't anymore interested in Rebirth. So, what's the profit guys?

So far their honest are doing me a huge service. I didn't pre-order and I'll be waiting until either I either hear positive opinions from people I respect here or ES goes out of business That's the reason I'm checking these forums once per week at least. May be some miracle patch fixes all that mess? And yes, I do not have a slightest respect to opinions of the "new ES community" that is trying to bash those old timers for their not so good opinions of the game.

[Santi]

Because it's not what I said.
I like cooking, and I am capable. Yet I expect when I pay someone to do it, that they actually do.

So when you go to a restaurant and you get a meal not really up to your standards, don't you feel like going into the Kitchen and showing the Head Chef how is it done? That is one of the things that make some people make mods, to be true to your analogy, they do not need to go the Restaurant kitchen to prove a point, they do it from home and upload it to a site like Nexus.

[Trialbyfire]

I think you missed the point that it is not that the bugs are not minded but rather we believe they will be fixed... a subtle difference perhaps but it is there.

No, I didn't miss the point. Back on page one of this thread, or closely thereafter, comments were made that some of what many of us consider bugs, were not a problem from that posters perspective. Yes, possibly that person was looking at it in the context that such things would be fixed.

Personal insults are against the first rule of these forums, please keep the discussions on topic.

Point taken with respect.

[dzhedzho]

Oh man will you listen to yourself.
I hate stupid analogies, but I don;t see any other way of putting it.
If Ford released a new car, and the reviewers could not get it to start. Should they then write an article telling people that the car provided did not start?

Do you sell cars?, because if the car doesn't start, I bloody well expect the reviewer to say so, in bold, underlined, cursive and capital letters, that if I buy this car, it will not start. What I don't want is a 30 out of 100.

Hmm, well you get 0 for the car not starting, and 30 for the looks
Adds up to 30
And the game actually starts, and there at least few things working. Which seems enough for some people, and I'm happy for them.

And most reviewers say what they hate, dislike or like.
Some people actually read further than the numbers.

For example, from reviews you can figure out NFS:Rivals is capped @30fps on PC, which was enough for me not to buy it.

You don't want the bad publicity, you don't release unfinished stuff. It's really that simple.

[Zable Fahr]

When reviews are this consistent, you know they're on the money. None of these publications have gone against the grain and said the game is good, which would surely hurt their reputation.

People always think reviewers are paid to give high scores but it's the system that is flawed. 10 = masterpiece, 1 = broken mess. That's how it should be, but 5 is the new 1.

Rebirth getting such poor scores is an indication of its quality. Frankly, I'm shocked at how low they are. Polishing this turd may be difficult.

[steelgrey75]

Oh man will you listen to yourself.
I hate stupid analogies, but I don;t see any other way of putting it.
If Ford released a new car, and the reviewers could not get it to start. Should they then write an article telling people that the car provided did not start?

Do you sell cars?, because if the car doesn't start, I bloody well expect the reviewer to say so, in bold, underlined, cursive and capital letters, that if I buy this car, it will not start. What I don't want is a 30 out of 100.

Oh I see, your choosing to ignore the rest of my post.
I said ALL of the information about that car should be in the review.

If Ford released a new car, and the reviewers could not get it to start. Should they then write an article telling people that the car provided did not start? Also saying they will check with Ford again in a few months time and see if they have got it working.
No they should not, they should write a review of the car that was provided to them that very day. If the car did not work then the public should be told. Its totally irrelevant what might happen in the future. Maybe they will review it again, maybe not, but the review of the first car MUST stand.

[Santi]

Hmm, well you get 0 for the car not starting, and 30 for the looks

Now guess which is the bit, future customers are more interesting in? That it looks good, or that the car doesn't start? And how can you review a car that doesn't start? You don't think that the reviewer will go into the car and go VROOM VROOM! and decide to say that it handles ok, top acceleration is a bit short, but all this is irrelevant because the car doesn't start.

Oh I see, your choosing to ignore the rest of my post.
I said ALL of the information about that car should be in the review.

But the car is still not working, how can you review a car that is not working, and let me remind you, Rebirth was not working at release.

[dzhedzho]

Because it's not what I said.
I like cooking, and I am capable. Yet I expect when I pay someone to do it, that they actually do.

So when you go to a restaurant and you get a meal not really up to your standards, don't you feel like going into the Kitchen and showing the Head Chef how is it done? That is one of the things that make some people make mods, to be true to your analogy, they do not need to go the Restaurant kitchen to prove a point, they do it from home and upload it to a site like Nexus.

Hell no. I do not have to prove to myself I can cook better. The same way I don't have the urge to show the waiter how to wait tables...

If I am asked, how the food was I say I disliked it because (whatever the case). If I hated it simply don't go to the same restaurant again, and tell anyone who asks me that it's not a good place. If the food was really bad, I might bother writing a review about it (or if it was really good for that matter). If the food was rancid, I will generally refuse to pay it, or even might call the health inspectors (that would depend on the attitude).

Now if the food was good, I'd try to cook it (at home), or make it even better.
You see, I do not find sense in improving the recipe for grilled salmon, because a chef decided to cook it in the micro

I hope this makes sense to you.

And yes, If I order/buy beef, I don't generally expect horse...

[steelgrey75]

But the car is still not working, how can you review a car that is not working, and let me remind you, Rebirth was not working at release.

Then if it is not working when released, and the reviewers had copies that did not work, they review it on what they have seen and the experience they have had. So they rate it poorly as its not fit for purpose. Something along the lines of "the body looks good, the interior is a little nasty, the engine doesn't work". There are some good points to put in the review, and some bad, thats usually the pattern a review will follow.
The car analogy was not the best, I could have used any product. A phone that looks great but can't make phone calls for example.

[UnclePaulie]

I keep hearing that the game is getting better all the time ......................... its not, nothing has been altered in game, it is only bugs that have been addressed so far . The game is still bad and will be for a long time . I like to deal with facts and the fact is nobody is playing this game and the numbers keep falling, after every patch the numbers jump up a few hundred then fall again, if you look at the graph in the 3 month or month scale it pretty much says all you need to know about the game .


http://steamcharts.com/app/2870#3m

[Santi]

Hell no. I do not have to prove to myself I can cook better. The same way I don't have the urge to show the waiter how to wait tables...

Exactly, because that will be just embarrassing, but mods do have the chance to that from the comfort of their houses, and make public that they can do what a developer can do and better, and that is fun. Same as you do when you dedicate time to your cooking.

You see, I do not find sense in improving the recipe for grilled salmon, because a chef decided to cook it in the micro

I agree with you, but nothing beats the taste of a deep fried, medium steak, when the kitchen brigade, falls apart when the Restaurant is full, and you have a one hour queue, ahh happy times.