Split from X-Rebirth Steam poll thread - Round 2

[perkint]

Voicing your thoughts to other community members is not going to change anything. 120+ pages of steam vs stand alone version arguments are not really helping anything.

It is the developers and the publishers you need to voice your thoughts out. Make a petition if it bothers you that much and once you get 500+ people to request a boxed version, then that will start causing a stur of things.

But this is the developers forum and I'm quite sure they are aware of these threads - some of them (including Bernd) having posted in them. And emails have been sent to Bernd, and to DeepSilver. I'm not suggesting they are reading all the posts (God I hope not - there are things I'd rather they spent their time on!) but that doesn't mean they are unaware of these discussions and how active they are.

500? You think that's the right number?

@Slashman - the only stats we have to go on are the forum stats:
20% of uploaded stats are from modified games. I suspect the figure of modified games in use is significantly higher than that since uploading stats for modified games is fairly pointless.
Views on the list of mods for X3TC sticky is almost as high as views on the Ultimate resource sticky for all X games (something like 753K vs 758K). That actually surprised me, but suggests the number of people playing (or showing an interest in modding) is a very significant percentage.

Tim

[Chris0132]

I still highly doubt that the auto-updating will be an issue for X: Rebirth modding. It's clear that Egosoft is aware of the problems that could occur for people wanting to mod X3: Terran Conflict, that have the game on Steam. Now with X: Rebirth being built around Steam and its auto-update feature from the beginning, it would be kind of stupid not to set up the modding process and stuff in such a way that it won't be affected by updates.

Not necessarily.

False 'patch' type mods have generally been pretty reliable and update safe, however more extensive mods that make changes to base system files are more of a problem. Even if Egosoft were to make Rebirth extensively moddable, if they updated a system file to fix a bug that another mod had altered then that mod would break.

I think with the amount of emphasis X games put on modding, a better modding interface would be a pretty useful feature.

I mean they are practically sold on their moddability, you buy an X game because you know it's going to be supported for a while, and because it will have a bunch of mods made for it, much as you buy a half life game for the same reason, or a TES game, or the new fallout games.

With that in mind, something like bethesda's data file manager would be appreciated, or anything which allows you to add multiple, possibly conficting mods without breaking the game. With the bethesda program it loads ALL the data, but overrules existing stuff, if it doesn't work, you just disable data files until it does, or change the load order. it's a lot harder to do that with the X3 approach, not to mention all the hassle with the serial format most of the data is stored in, where adding more data messes up the references for the other data in the file and suchlike.

Actually one thing steam does do which could be useful is it keeps a copy of all the base data in the GCF files, then loads content in the game folder on top of that, so it's already using the layered approach somewhat, building on that would be a good idea I think, and would also alleviate any issues with patches as mods would supply all their data in separate files to be loaded on top of the base files, rather than replacing the base files entirely.

[Ishanda]

First let me say, I am an active user of Steam so on face value I would not object to Steam for X-Rebirth. However...

The inability to get around the auto-update feature of Steam seems to me to be a potential stickler. It doesn't matter with most games, but with X it does (or could) matter. Take any old popular online FPS for instance. Why would it matter if major changes to the game are incorporated through patches? Everyone gets the new patch and 20 minutes of fragging commences with new rules. With X though, games take months and months and it is possible that all your hard work (if anyone says it is all fun they are fibbing) would come to naught because some new game balance patch and or piece of content has solidly laid waste to all your plans.

As far as I am aware, the auto-update feature is integral to Steam's architecture and is not going to change anytime soon so the way I see it, Egosoft would have to think about how they implement future support. Of course they do not HAVE TO, but if they did, it would not be too difficult (I would think) to get around the auto-update issues via coding on their part.

Failing that the obvious solution would be to NOT have Steam involved with updates at all.

[dougeye]

In regards to auto updating

I just created a second install of x3tc outside of steam to avoid any issues on my modified game. im sure egosoft will facilitate this for rebirth aswell. mabye not at first but after the sales peak, it will probly take a while for modders to get used to the new engine anyways.

saying this though egosoft dont release bug fixes every other day (well they might at first) so autoupdate is not that much of an issue anyway.

The debate about steam being bad for modding is just anti steam camp clutching at straws IMO trying to make a point, ive never had issue modding a steam game, sometimes a mod may need a compatability patch for the steam version if it involves launching as a new exe, for example oblivion script extender had problems with steam which were soon fixed, i beleive bethesda had a hand in relaxing the steam launch options(i dont know the exact detail).

[EmperorJon]

ALSO THE PRO-STEAM USERS WILL VOTE FOR A STAND ALONE VERSION ALSO, AS THEY ALREADY BENEFIT FROM STEAM AND CAN MAKE CHANGES TO HELP BENEFIT YOU.

So, so true. I'd vote. It would be lying of course, because it'd be a "I want a none steam version." and they'd know that many people were lying... so that'd cause issues.


EDIT:

Option 1: "I will only buy Rebirth if a non-steam version is available."
Option 2: "I will buy Rebirth on Steam if I have to, but would prefer a non-Steam version."
Option 3: "I will buy Rebirth probably on Steam, but support a non-Steam version for the good of the community."
Option 4: "I'm an evil bastard."

With moderator permission, I would like to create a new poll for this.

[esd]

With moderator permission, I would like to create a new poll for this.

Nope - this thread, while not perfect, pretty much does the job. Just the one on this will do

Also you missed "4: I will buy Rebirth on Steam but do not support a non-Steam version"

[EmperorJon]

Updated it then, you happy now?

[StarSword]

I vehemently choose Option 1. My Internet connection is terrible, a state of affairs I don't see changing within the next couple of years, so I'm not using an Internet-required service I don't have precise control over.

I don't want the bells and whistles Steam offers (achievements? social networking? who gives a s***?), because I only care about actually playing the game.

I'm not saying Egosoft shouldn't release it on Steam. I'm saying that Egosoft shouldn't release it only on Steam. And before somebody says "Steamworks not Steam", they're the same service with a different distribution. With the one you're installing it from the Internet via Steam directly, and with the other you're installing it from a disc and doing everything else with Steam.

Antaran said this earlier, which outlines my feelings precisely:

None of us care if the game is sold on Steam, imo good for Egosoft for the increased sales, good for Steam users, what we do care is that we cannot get it outside of Steam, how is this hard to understand?

Why do the steam people always assume that we are demanding that the game should not be on Steam..... I do not care how much you love [insert useless function that steam has] that steam offers you, not a single thing that Steam has to offer is appealing to me, alot of things steam requires of me is unacceptable to me.

This is not hard to understand.

I cannot count the number of times I have said this, but Egosoft appears to have their hands over their ears regarding something at least 36% of their fan base (a minority, yes, but a large one) feels very strongly about. So let me say it as loudly as I can, in hopes of getting it across:

Standalone, non-Steam, non-Steamworks, DVD release of X: Rebirth, or Terran Conflict is the last X-game in my library.

Period. Done. Finished. End of discussion. Fin de la discusión. Fim da discussão. Ende der Diskussion. Konets diskussii. Giron no owari. Lok umræðu. Mwisho wa majadiliano. Tartışmanın sonu. Diwedd y drafodaeth. You get the picture.

(Ain't Google Translate grand? )

EDIT: Got rid of a redundant paragraph.

[EmperorJon]

at least 36% of their fan base

Er... no, 36% of the people who voted in that poll, 607 of them in total, with currently 388354 registered on the forum. Look at it another way, there's 147 people logged on right now.

So it's not 36% of the fanbase at all.

[Strum1]

I would never use steam for such a game. I want this game too much to let steam screw it up.

Look at sword of the stars 2 that was out a few days ago on Steam. The devs accidentally uploaded a beta version and screwed everything up.

I rather have a final release on a dvd instead of going through all that mess.

[Slashman]

@Slashman - the only stats we have to go on are the forum stats:
20% of uploaded stats are from modified games. I suspect the figure of modified games in use is significantly higher than that since uploading stats for modified games is fairly pointless.
Views on the list of mods for X3TC sticky is almost as high as views on the Ultimate resource sticky for all X games (something like 753K vs 758K). That actually surprised me, but suggests the number of people playing (or showing an interest in modding) is a very significant percentage.

Thanks for the info.

I'd say that if they haven't addressed the modding infrastructure of the game, then it would be a potentially silly move on their part.

Of course, over the years, I've learned that developers often think in completely different ways than actual players of their games about some things. It sometimes boggles the mind but it happens.

[Choublanc]

at least 36% of their fan base

Er... no, 36% of the people who voted in that poll, 607 of them in total, with currently 388354 registered on the forum. Look at it another way, there's 147 people logged on right now.

So it's not 36% of the fanbase at all.

Well, since the beginning of the thread the pro-Steam side argues that only a negligible few hundreds peoples (about 400 if you add English and German forums) aren’t willing to buy the game if it is Steam-only available.

On one hand, maybe some of these 400 peoples will buy the game anyway (not me).
On the other hand, a LOT of others potential customers won’t buy it, because:
- Peoples not reading English or German language well enough didn’t vote.
- Peoples not wanting to vote didn’t vote
- Peoples not knowing the thread exists didn’t vote.
- Peoples not knowing the forum exists didn’t vote.
- Peoples having a bad Internet connection didn’t vote.
- Peoples not knowing now anything about X-Games didn’t vote.
Etc…

I would bet a big amount of money on this:
1/ OK, the % of potential players not willing to buy XR because of Steam will be less than 37%
2/ BUT, worldwide they’ll be far, far, more than a few hundreds of them.

[Slashman]

I would never use steam for such a game. I want this game too much to let steam screw it up.

Look at sword of the stars 2 that was out a few days ago on Steam. The devs accidentally uploaded a beta version and screwed everything up.

I rather have a final release on a dvd instead of going through all that mess.

Your own words bring light to the cause of this issue. The developers uploaded the wrong version. Just as developers uploaded the wrong version of Dead Island. Steam wasn't the cause of that or the Sword of the Stars 2 problem.

You may be further interested to know that SotS 2 was buggy and problem plagued when the final version went up as well. They quickly released another patch for it and I believe they are now at work on another.

On one hand, maybe some of these 400 peoples will buy the game anyway (not me).
On the other hand, a LOT of others potential customers won’t buy it, because:
- Peoples not reading English or German language well enough didn’t vote.
- Peoples not wanting to vote didn’t vote
- Peoples not knowing the thread exists didn’t vote.
- Peoples not knowing the forum exists didn’t vote.
- Peoples having a bad Internet connection didn’t vote.
- Peoples not knowing now anything about X-Games didn’t vote.
Etc…

You realize that your list of criteria also applies to people who are pro-Steam as well right? Especially people not knowing about X games...which Steam will help to target by putting Rebirth on the front page of all Steam users(you know...those 30+ million people who definitely use Steam).

I would bet a big amount of money on this:
1/ OK, the % of potential players not willing to buy XR because of Steam will be less than 37%
2/ BUT, worldwide they’ll be far, far, more than a few hundreds of them.

Where are you getting these numbers? 37% of what? All potential players? All players who voted? All players who didn't vote? All we have is a poll with a couple hundred people voting against Steam integration, and some vocal people on both sides arguing back and forth.

Wordwide, will there be more than a few hundred people who won't buy the game because of Steam? Of course...that's basic logic. The question you can't answer is how much that actually affects Egosoft's bottom line. I'm thinking it may be pretty negligible based on the performance of numerous Steamworks titles in the past. Still...only Egosoft/Deepsilver can say for sure.

[apricotslice]

I would bet a big amount of money on this:
1/ OK, the % of potential players not willing to buy XR because of Steam will be less than 37%
2/ BUT, worldwide they’ll be far, far, more than a few hundreds of them.

Probably right.

But its not only sales of XR we are talking about. Its any add-on material they sell, its the following 2 versions of the game based on the same engine, and then likely any game after that.

To paraphrase, "Once you start down the steam path, forever will it dominate your destiny".

They lose me now, they probably lose me forever.

I've been playing computer games for 30 years and I potentially have another 30-40 years in front of me. Even if steam lasts 10 years, thats a lot of NO SALES they will be getting from me in that time. Even if they ditch steam for XR2, I'm unlikely to buy it not being able to play the first one.

Now I need to catch up on what I have missed for two weeks.

Thats a lot of reading, since most of it got cast adrift a couple of days ago.


Couple of other points :

I dont care how many people vote for steam, I'm only interested in how many people dont want it.

You cant compare what happens with steam version of TC to XR, because it will be different. TC is not done the way XR will be. Its an apples and oranges comparison.

[the old one]

A lot of steam users are scrapping the bottom of the barrel for excuses that steam is the best thing in the world for rebirth.The most common one is, it is a certanty rebirth will get more sales with steam,so i would like to no were they get these assumptions from.i believe it is wishful thinking on the part of steam users to try and override every opponent of steam.Till sales figures are released no one cansay what the figures are,but to say they can see into the future well which oricle do they use,the old one

[dougeye]

Take X3TC for example, when i found out it was released i could not find a disc copy anywere in the south west of england, not in game or gamestation the two major game reailers in the uk, this is probably due to the fact they only realy stck the top ten pc releases these days as they both see pc games as not being worth the shelf space! At the time i only had steam to play half life 2 but i thought you know what ill check out the steam store on the off chance X3TC is there, so would you believe it it was there so i passed over every little bit of information about my personal life to steam (jokes ) and made the purchase, 2 hours later i had the game installed updated! (this was 2.5 aldrin missions) and ready to go and have loved it ever since. If i had relied on store bought disc version i would never have got X3TC and probably wouldn't be here now talking about Rebirth (if only some people are thinking lol).

So the point is that unless you live near a large flagship game store (in england at least) you have no chance of coming across smaller developers games so i platform like steam although NOT PERFECT was a god send and to suggest having a vendor the size of steam onbaord wont boost sales is madness TBH.

[apricotslice]

Take X3TC for example, when i found out it was released i could not find a disc copy anywere in the south west of england, not in game or gamestation the two major game reailers in the uk, this is probably due to the fact they only realy stck the top ten pc releases these days as they both see pc games as not being worth the shelf space! At the time i only had steam to play half life 2 but i thought you know what ill check out the steam store on the off chance X3TC is there, so would you believe it it was there so i passed over every little bit of information about my personal life to steam (jokes ) and made the purchase, 2 hours later i had the game installed updated! (this was 2.5 aldrin missions) and ready to go and have loved it ever since. If i had relied on store bought disc version i would never have got X3TC and probably wouldn't be here now talking about Rebirth (if only some people are thinking lol).

So the point is that unless you live near a large flagship game store (in england at least) you have no chance of coming across smaller developers games so i platform like steam although NOT PERFECT was a god send and to suggest having a vendor the size of steam onbaord wont boost sales is madness TBH.

No-one is disputing this. We are all glad it worked well for you.

Some dispute the sales boost though, but thats irrelevant to my concerns, since I dont give a stuff about steam at all. If it does, bully for everyone involved, I dont really care.

I for one do live near a good game store, that does still have a decent PC section, and I really would like to keep it that way being able to buy from them.

I dont want steam. I want the non-steam option. I'm perfectly happy for you to buy off steam since that whats works for you. But I dont want anything to do with steam, since that works best for me.

Why cant we both get what works best for each of us ?

[dougeye]

you guys do realise that if a game is steamworks you can still buy a disc copy from any store you wish, you just launcha nd update the game from steam which as a modder you should know that creating a second install outside of steam with a patched exe will forfit the need to even have steam on your pc after install, this just depends on if ego make a manual patch available.

[apricotslice]

you guys do realise that if a game is steamworks you can still buy a disc copy from any store you wish, you just launcha nd update the game from steam which as a modder you should know that creating a second install outside of steam with a patched exe will forfit the need to even have steam on your pc after install, this just depends on if ego make a manual patch available.

Thats the whole thing.

Egosoft have said only steamworks, meaning that after you install the game from disc, you still need steam on your computer to run the game. There will be no second install outside steam, and no manual patching of any kind. All patching will be done automatically by steam. That what "steamworks" implies according to those who know.

Thats what "we" object to. That why we want a stand alone non-steam dvd.

[A5PECT]

you guys do realise that if a game is steamworks you can still buy a disc copy from any store you wish, you just launcha nd update the game from steam which as a modder you should know that creating a second install outside of steam with a patched exe will forfit the need to even have steam on your pc after install, this just depends on if ego make a manual patch available.

I'm guessing that that won't work this time around. I thought that "patch into non-Steam mode" trick only worked because you could apply a standalone patch to the Steam-based X3TC.exe, converting it from a Steam program into a non-Steam program.*

If there's no standalone version of Rebirth, then there won't be any standalone patches that you can use to convert the Steam version with.

*That is a massive guess on my part. If I'm wrong someone feel free to correct me and I'll delete this post.