[MOD-TC]Ship Rebalance Mod:Continued v1.10b (27/6/11): Now Discontinued...

strude · Post by **strude** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 09:06

Yeah I know, I did say long shots. Been following along with the chat and that's the best I could come up with at the moment

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 11:58

I have looked specifically at the Q and Someone Else has made changes to the body file for the Q. I have no details, all the files say is that the model has been "fixed".

If this issue is specific to the Q, then it is possible that in trying to fix the Q Someone Else has indeed created this issue.

My feeling is that its possible that the changes to the model has made the target of the Q perhaps smaller thus the turrets are more inclined to aim for the camera dummies.

Without more details of what Someone Else did to the model it is difficult to be sure.

If you can double check whether this issue affects all large ships or just the Q?

If it is specific to the Q then we can try putting the default body and scene files back and see if it fixes it. This is fairly straight forward, so if you can confirm if this is indeed just a Q issue I'll upload a test version for you.

Anyone got any idea what the problems with the Q models are? I haven't played vanilla in so long that I can't remember there being any issues.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 13:44

Just to let you know you're not mad!

I just did some thorough testing with the Q and using the same scenario as you I was able replicate the turrets aim to the right of the Q. Before I hadn't tried being stationary and letting the Q attack me.

I removed the Q scene file and the problem was fixed so there is definately a problem with the Q's scene file.

Rest assured I'm on the case now so hopefully I'll be able to find out what the problem is.

Worst case I can go back to the default Q scene file, but I know someone else fixed a problem with one of the turrets so hopefullly I'll be able to fix it while encorporating his fixes.

I tried other ships such as the J and an Aggamemnon and they seemed to be fine. Certainly not the obvious "off to one side" aiming with the Q, just the usual innaccuracies of fire at distance.

Igor.tverd · Post by **Igor.tverd** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 17:11

Paulwheeler, may I request that you make SRM compatible with Cadiuses ship pack? They fit X-lore perfectly.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 17:33

I've had a look at that pack before. While I think the models are great, there are a couple of points I was not sure about.

1. Its very biased towards USC and ATF.

2. Are these ships balanced to fit with existing ships? I don't want to add ships which in effect relegate existing ships as this goes against what the SRM is about. The SRM was created to give each ship its place.

3. Will changing the models of the various docks mean a restart is necessary? Its important for me to retain save game compatibility.

Perhaps someone who has had experience of this mod could give me their opinion.

What does everyone think? I'm certainly up for adding it if people think it'll fit.

Regarding the Q problem, I have taken the Q scene file from the bug fix mod, merged in Someone Elses new turret entry and added the docking entries.

I have also removed M/AM from the L and LX and added PBE and EMP. I removed SSC from terran M6 turrets too.

I will hopefully test tonight and upload v0.64 tomorrow.

Igor.tverd · Post by **Igor.tverd** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 17:47

paulwheeler wrote:I've had a look at that pack before. While I think the models are great, there are a couple of points I was not sure about.

1. Its very biased towards USC and ATF.

2. Are these ships balanced to fit with existing ships? I don't want to add ships which in effect relegate existing ships as this goes against what the SRM is about. The SRM was created to give each ship its place.

3. Will changing the models of the various docks mean a restart is necessary? Its important for me to retain save game compatibility.

Perhaps someone who has had experience of this mod could give me their opinion.

What does everyone think? I'm certainly up for adding it if people think it'll fit.

Regarding the Q problem, I have taken the Q scene file from the bug fix mod, merged in Someone Elses new turret entry and added the docking entries.

I have also removed M/AM from the L and LX and added PBE and EMP. I removed SSC from terran M6 turrets too.

I will hopefully test tonight and upload v0.64 tomorrow.

1. True, but it adds ships which in my opinion should have been in the game originally, like Terran TMs, USC M7M, etc.

2. The ships are defiantly balanced, each one serves a certain role and they fit perfectly into the universe.

3. There are 2 mods, one with just the ships and one with ships & stations. So you could always use the 1st one.

Gavrushka · Post by **Gavrushka** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 18:31

I am no sure about making the inclusion of this suggested pack Mandatory to use this Mod - What in essence this has done is taken Vanilla ships and made them all desirable in one way or another without any obvious over-powered ships.

The idea of balance varies from one person to another, and when someone else originally balanced the ships he took onboard the comments of dozens of people. - The debate on balance was also predated by a very long and informed L3 discussion on balance taking onboard racial characteristics.

I would suggest, if you are going to consider amalgamating with another ship/station mod you offer the option of the existing separate as it really is that darn good as it stands.

panzerkw · Post by **panzerkw** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 18:49

Paul I'm at work all day today, but I will check with other capital ship targets when I get home.

If I can inject a bit more "Weird stuff in my game" here, does your Colossus only have PPC compatibility in the Right and Up turret?

Igor.tverd · Post by **Igor.tverd** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 20:14

Paul, may I ask what this part of SRM components file is responsible for?

Code: Select all

ships\props\m3turret1d_weapon; 2;
NULL; 0.021611;-0.018531;0.987697; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.021603;-0.018531;0.987697; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
89; 4;
NULL; 0.057376;0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.057376;0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; 0.057376;-0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.057376;-0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;

It seems to cause an odd problem with Fachions cockpit (Cadius Ship pack), moving it to the center of the body. If I deleted it works fine. Thank you in advance.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 20:17

Yes my collosus is like that. It was something introduced into the original srm.

I like it. It means I can bring two sets of ppcs to bare on a target. Good for broadsiding. So I decided to leave it in.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 20:21

Igor.tverd wrote:Paul, may I ask what this part of SRM components file is responsible for?
Code: Select all
ships\props\m3turret1d_weapon; 2;
NULL; 0.021611;-0.018531;0.987697; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.021603;-0.018531;0.987697; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
89; 4;
NULL; 0.057376;0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.057376;0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; 0.057376;-0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.057376;-0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
It seems to cause an odd problem with Fachions cockpit (Cadius Ship pack), moving it to the center of the body. If I deleted it works fine. Thank you in advance.

I'll be honest I have no idea. I'm pretty new to all this stuff so I'm still working all this stuff out myself.

I'll have a think about it and get back to you.

Igor.tverd · Post by **Igor.tverd** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 20:47

Thanks, I'm new to all this as well.
By trial and error method I have managed to figure out that this

Code: Select all

ships\props\invisible_weapon; 1;
NULL; -0.000031;0.028748;0.540283; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
944; 1;
LASERF_ROTATE; -0.000031;0.086548;-0.813232; 0.000000;0.000000;1.000000;
772; 1;
NULL; -0.000031;-0.245972;0.639771; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
111; 1;
NULL; -0.000031;0.003998;0.632385; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
375; 1;
NULL; -0.000031;0.003998;0.632385; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
503; 2;
NULL; -0.000031;-0.000031;0.985870; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.000031;-0.216125;0.326111; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
504; 1;
NULL; 0.000122;-0.000031;0.955322; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
887; 1;
NULL; -0.000336;-0.088959;0.848816; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
950; 1;
NULL; -0.002045;-0.397278;0.561432; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;

and this

Code: Select all

ships\props\m3turret1d_weapon; 2;
NULL; 0.021611;-0.018531;0.987697; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.021603;-0.018531;0.987697; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
89; 4;
NULL; 0.057376;0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.057376;0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; 0.057376;-0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;
NULL; -0.057376;-0.034991;0.975556; 0.000000;0.000000;0.000000;

parts of SRM Components file were causing problems with Fachion. After removing them everything seems fine, but I'll test every ship in the game to see what might have got effected. If anyone knows what these two parts were responsible for I would welcome a hint. Thank you.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 22:34

UPDATE 0.64
--------------

A small update this just to try and address the issues brought up over the last few days.

I replaced the scene file for the Q with the one from the bug fix mod. I added the entries for the extra turret Someone Else added and the docking mod.

Weapons fire now no longer veers off to one side of the Q.

I also noticed while investigating this that the Q didn't have a cockpit. I have given it the M1 cockpit for now for those using the cockpit addon pack (no need to redownload the pack - only the main mod was changed)

I got rid of M/AM compatiblity on the L and LX and gave them EMP and PBE.

I got rid of SSC on terran M6 turrets.

See the change log for all the details.

Due to the changes to the Q scene files, its probably wise to make sure there are no Qs in-sector when you update the mod.

panzerkw · Post by **panzerkw** » Wed, 24. Mar 10, 23:56

Paul, 2 more screenies for you

Once again stationary Boron Ray attacking Xenon Q with v0.64

At extreme ranges, the turrets are aiming below the Q. But because the side turrets are mounted above the front, plenty of shots still hit, so it's not as bad as before. All turrets are aiming for the center of the Q on the horizontal plane.

[ external image ]

Here you see almost the precise moment the turrets suddenly shift to fire directly at the center of mass of the Q (at around 5.9KM)
[ external image ]

I'm doing tests with other capital ship targets now

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Thu, 25. Mar 10, 09:42

Well at least we've made some progress! And at least now we know its something to do with the scene files.

In my tests I did notice that it was aiming towards the lower turret outside of 5km. This is the turret added by Someone Else and is not on the default Q. So I removed this turret so the scene file was back to the one straight from the bug fix mod - and guess what...

Now it aimed for the top turret.

I have a theory of what might be causing this...

I think this might be because of the location of the camera dummies and the fact that the turret camera dummies come into range before the centre of the ship does - so the turrets on your ship aim for the turret camera dummies and we all know how long it takes turrets to retarget in X3!

If this is the case I can look at the vanilla Q scene file and check the location of all the camera dummies. It's possible that the turret fixes which are integrated into the bug fix mod (and thus SRM) are causing this. In which case its also possible this may affect a few ships not just the Q.

Its also possible that this effect does indeed happen with vanilla X3, its just we haven't noticed it so much and the Q has had a lot of changes made to its scene file making it more pronounced.

Can you do another test for me?

Can you try the bug fix mod on its own? No SRM or anything just the bug fix mod. If the guns aim for the top turret at distance that will confirm what I am thinking about this.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Thu, 25. Mar 10, 18:16

I have posted stats for v0.64 in the main post.

It just has basic stats for now and does not include any weapon compatiblity data or prices as these are a bit harder to extract. It is in Microsoft Excel 2007 format (xlsx).

panzerkw · Post by **panzerkw** » Fri, 26. Mar 10, 16:02

Removed SRM, installed just Draffut's mod with cmod, and the turrets were aiming high, as you thought it would.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Fri, 26. Mar 10, 17:18

Good - that means its not the SRM causing this.

Now the thing to do is ask Draffut what might be causing this...

Can you try vanilla again and confirm that the fire does not aim for a turret on the Q but does in fact aim at the centre?

Its possible this does actually happen with vanilla, but we haven't noticed it before. In fact this might be the reason why many ships have messed up turret camera dummy positions in vanilla X3.

I will post in Draffut's thread and let him know what we have found.

In the mean time I offer you a choice. I can either leave the scene file as it is or remove the new turret on the Q so the aim goes to the top, but then the Q has one less turret. What do you prefer?

I could try moving the bottom turret camera dummy a little closer to the main body of the Q or maybe back a bit so the top turret comes into range first.That may help a little.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Sat, 27. Mar 10, 13:29

From Draffutt's bug fix mod thread:

draffutt wrote:
paulwheeler wrote:... the ship outside of 5KM a part of vanilla X3 we have to live with?
short answer yes

So I guess its something we are going to have to live with and affects vanilla ships as well.

I will see if I can move the lower turret camera dummy a little closer to the main body of the ship to see if I can minimise the effect.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Tue, 30. Mar 10, 15:46

I've had a good look at the Q's scene files now - and boy are its turrets messed up or what? Even the scene file from the bug fix mod is not right. The top turret only fires for half of its arc. Someone Else's added bottom turret is not right either.

So I've been messing around with things and I've managed to get the top turret to fire in its complete arc now. I've also improved the bottom turret too.

I'm aiming to try and get all the turrets on the Q working well while also keeping the camera dummies as close to the ship as possible to minimise this targeting issue.

I'm also making a few minor changes to other ships including the Mobile Mining Base Ship.

Should have a new version up in a couple of days.

By the way, there was one change I wanted to make, but its not really within the scope of this mod. I could add it as an addon pack... Basically I always thought the jumpdrive was far too accessible in vanilla, so I was thinking why not change its ware size to L or even XL? Then it would only be available on M6s and higher. This would make the game much more interesting IMO, especially at the start of the game, and would help make the universe feel larger. Not to mention bringing the gates back into use. I also think it should be more expensive. This seems a fairly simple thing to do so I was wondering what people think about it.

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[MOD-TC]Ship Rebalance Mod:Continued v1.10b (27/6/11): Now Discontinued...