Old Steam Poll posts split and 'archived'

[Frank Johnson]

I have been using steam for several years now and I've never had any problems with it. I like that it updates the games automatically. I guess if you are using hacks and cheats it might be a problem but i don't do that.

Whats the big deal ...specifically.

[the-danzorz]

The point is, no one who is anti steam is saying you steam lovers should not be able to play on steam, make love to steam or anything else with steam.
It is you steam lovers and ES who are dictating to us non steam users that to play XR we must ask steam permission first and allow it on our computers to #### it ##.
Well no thank you! If anything proves that XR is a second rate X game, it is that ES have brought in an aggressive bully-boy organisation like Steam to sell it. If ES come to their senses and allow an alternative to putting these destructive controlling programs on our PCs we will give XR a whirl!

It seems to me your a very old fashioned person, especially with your signature being as ignorant as it is. No offense intended it just really is.

Steam doesn't mess up PCs unless installed incorrectly, its been stable for me for years. If you don't like it for any valid reason that is backed up with some valid factural exsperiance. Such as steam conflicts with said software or hardware then i agree your experience is valid to not installing it. But it seems you lack some experiences with steam more then anything else.

I agree there should be a stand alone version of the game, for users who have legitimate reasons for not installing steam. But in the end it comes to be a big hassle to everyone trying to support all these platform releases.

As for your signature:

Congratulations Egosoft on increasing memory usage from 2 to 3 Gb.

Games use up more and more Memory and CPU, good luck trying to run Battlefield 3, even my quad core setup has issues running that was decent performance on low.

Just as games become more demanding, with more features and visual looks, they also update in how they release, update and protection.

Its just the way the industry is going, egosoft is not the only developer doing such things. All EA games coming in the next few years will all use EA version of Steam to run the games. Its just how it is and how the industry is going. and IMHO it is for the better.

There is always doom-sayers but in the end they will start using the updated platforms and then be supporters of it.

[VincentTH]

If you want a fact about the real world, then here is another one for you, piracy and 2nd hand selling of games. Both which hurt the developers a lot!.

Making sure everyone who plays the game, buys there own new copy of the game is important to every developer. Steam is a good solution and helps both the developer and user manage their games in an effective way. There is options for low bandwidth and network users to not get updates (see above) and you can also buy a DVD copy of the steamworks copy to solve any download issues. (or get a friend to download and ship you a dvd copy).

A lot of developers including EA are making software like Steam, so sooner or later you will need to use these types of software or miss-out on gaming in general.

Please don't put piracy and 2nd hand selling in the same sentence. The first one is illegal, and can be cause for thread-lock/ban etc... while the 2nd hand selling is perfectly legal in the USA where Valve Corp is [Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109, upheld by UMG v. Augusto) is the precedence in US law]

Saying that Steam helps avoid these two issues doesn't get threads locked, its a valid point of view on benefits this has for any developer. The 2nd one is legal but some developers frown upon it (why wouldn't they, they lose profit from it.) if a game gets bought once, the developer only gets protfit for that 1 sale. Where as if that same copy of that game is sold 2-3 times again through second hand selling, the developers don't make a profit from those sales.
[Stesam preaching removed]

.

The claim: Steam help prevent 2nd-hand sale of game

Fact #1: Steam account creation only requires account name and email
Fact #2: New Gmail account can be created in 1 minute.
Fact #3: Steam Game copy activation is tied to Steam account name
Fact #4: I can have one Steam account for each game that requires Steam.

I won't say I will do it (sell X:R second hand), but it is possible to create a new Steam account for X:R, and then sell it (account + email + game) on Ebay.
This is for the sake of discussion only, for the record, I never sell anything on EBay, let alone my games.

[greypanther]

No offence Vincent, but are you part Teladi? Thats Sssneaky! ( and good! )

[Asmodae]

While I agree with most of this, I will point out that cars and games are very different commodities. We depend on vehicles to a much higher degree than we do games. Well...we only depend on games for entertainment after all(South Korea and their Starcraft fetish aside).

Seriously? You can square in your mind the fact we don't need a thing with allowing crazy restrictions on it? I think you undervalue our culture too much. And you underestimate how easily those restrictive frameworks (once entrenched) migrate to other industries.

When drive controllers and sound cards started to come integrated on motherboards, a lot of hardcore enthusiasts swore that it was a bad thing and it was just another point of failure for your system which would cause you to go through motherboards faster etc. Turns out that no one cares about that stuff any more and the more things we can integrate on motherboards(and in processors) these days, the better.

Totally irrelevant. Different circumstances, different reasoning (both for and against), different industry.

I don't believe that much of what is going on in the PC market in terms of digital distribution can be easily attributed to preventing second hand sales. Actually, Gabe Newell(of Valve) said in a recent interview that they are looking at ways for Steam users to be able to resell Steam games...but haven't come up with any concrete solutions. Steam also recently launched a service for users to sell/trade in-game items.

Talk is cheap, actions count. My prediction is we won't see this feature ever as a part of Steam as it exists today. And even if we do, what if I want to sell my game to someone who doesn't use steam? Or just loan it to someone? What they do now matters, and right now every new publishing scheme that comes out (steam, origin, etc.) is targeted at restricting the used game market. Just because you don't want to believe doesn't make it not true.

[the-danzorz]

If you want a fact about the real world, then here is another one for you, piracy and 2nd hand selling of games. Both which hurt the developers a lot!.

Making sure everyone who plays the game, buys there own new copy of the game is important to every developer. Steam is a good solution and helps both the developer and user manage their games in an effective way. There is options for low bandwidth and network users to not get updates (see above) and you can also buy a DVD copy of the steamworks copy to solve any download issues. (or get a friend to download and ship you a dvd copy).

A lot of developers including EA are making software like Steam, so sooner or later you will need to use these types of software or miss-out on gaming in general.

Please don't put piracy and 2nd hand selling in the same sentence. The first one is illegal, and can be cause for thread-lock/ban etc... while the 2nd hand selling is perfectly legal in the USA where Valve Corp is [Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109, upheld by UMG v. Augusto) is the precedence in US law]

Saying that Steam helps avoid these two issues doesn't get threads locked, its a valid point of view on benefits this has for any developer. The 2nd one is legal but some developers frown upon it (why wouldn't they, they lose profit from it.) if a game gets bought once, the developer only gets protfit for that 1 sale. Where as if that same copy of that game is sold 2-3 times again through second hand selling, the developers don't make a profit from those sales.
[Stesam preaching removed]

.

The claim: Steam help prevent 2nd-hand sale of game

Fact #1: Steam account creation only requires account name and email
Fact #2: New Gmail account can be created in 1 minute.
Fact #3: Steam Game copy activation is tied to Steam account name
Fact #4: I can have one Steam account for each game that requires Steam.

I won't say I will do it (sell X:R second hand), but it is possible to create a new Steam account for X:R, and then sell it (account + email + game) on Ebay.
This is for the sake of discussion only, for the record, I never sell anything on EBay, let alone my games.

No offence Vincent, but are you part Teladi? Thats Sssneaky! ( and good! )

I got to admit your right, that is damn sneaky, but i didn't think most steam users would think of that. But that is a method to getting around it and probably a valid one. But i guessing the saying is "No DRM is Fullproof, someone will always find a way" is always valid.

While I agree with most of this, I will point out that cars and games are very different commodities. We depend on vehicles to a much higher degree than we do games. Well...we only depend on games for entertainment after all(South Korea and their Starcraft fetish aside).

Seriously? You can square in your mind the fact we don't need a thing with allowing crazy restrictions on it? I think you undervalue our culture too much. And you underestimate how easily those restrictive frameworks (once entrenched) migrate to other industries.

When drive controllers and sound cards started to come integrated on motherboards, a lot of hardcore enthusiasts swore that it was a bad thing and it was just another point of failure for your system which would cause you to go through motherboards faster etc. Turns out that no one cares about that stuff any more and the more things we can integrate on motherboards(and in processors) these days, the better.

Totally irrelevant. Different circumstances, different reasoning (both for and against), different industry.

I don't believe that much of what is going on in the PC market in terms of digital distribution can be easily attributed to preventing second hand sales. Actually, Gabe Newell(of Valve) said in a recent interview that they are looking at ways for Steam users to be able to resell Steam games...but haven't come up with any concrete solutions. Steam also recently launched a service for users to sell/trade in-game items.

Talk is cheap, actions count. My prediction is we won't see this feature ever as a part of Steam as it exists today. And even if we do, what if I want to sell my game to someone who doesn't use steam? Or just loan it to someone? What they do now matters, and right now every new publishing scheme that comes out (steam, origin, etc.) is targeted at restricting the used game market. Just because you don't want to believe doesn't make it not true.

It is restricting the used game market, and i happen to agree with it. It supports the developers and some need the support to continue.

[epimannn]

I like the way steam provide games and other things.

I see lot of advantages for me and my way to play.

[Deleted User]

I have been using steam for several years now and I've never had any problems with it. I like that it updates the games automatically. I guess if you are using hacks and cheats it might be a problem but i don't do that.

Whats the big deal ...specifically.

This is a part of it, this is section 9C of steam subscriber agreement:-

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

[Asmodae]

The claim: Steam help prevent 2nd-hand sale of game

Fact #1: Steam account creation only requires account name and email
Fact #2: New Gmail account can be created in 1 minute.
Fact #3: Steam Game copy activation is tied to Steam account name
Fact #4: I can have one Steam account for each game that requires Steam.

I won't say I will do it (sell X:R second hand), but it is possible to create a new Steam account for X:R, and then sell it (account + email + game) on Ebay.
This is for the sake of discussion only, for the record, I never sell anything on EBay, let alone my games.

Sharing/transferring user accounts are against Steam's EULA. EULA violations have been held as copyright violations see Blizzard v Glider: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/y ... ont-own-it

Therefore the actions you recommend are equivalent in legality to outright piracy and thus not an option. Statement stands.

[TTD]

I have run offline mode for months, i have only been asked to log back into steam maybe once or twice in that time. just for a small steam update, then i switched back to offline mode.

To have been asked to log back on,means that part of Steam is still running in the background,else you would not get the request.

Or do you mean that Steam has sent you an e-mail?

[the-danzorz]

I have been using steam for several years now and I've never had any problems with it. I like that it updates the games automatically. I guess if you are using hacks and cheats it might be a problem but i don't do that.

Whats the big deal ...specifically.

This is a part of it, this is section 9C of steam subscriber agreement:-

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

All TOS use that line, they don't want to be sued because the software crashed. All developers adds these sort of things incase of an error. No software trys to appear bug free. Also with steam it is sharing applications, ones that may be found to be harmful when applied to certain systems.

Windows Crashes, Blue screens, Freezes, Runs Slow, Gets virus's... doesn't mean you can sue microsoft, why? there terms of service doesn't hold them responsible and you use at your own risk. As with ALL Software!

I have run offline mode for months, i have only been asked to log back into steam maybe once or twice in that time. just for a small steam update, then i switched back to offline mode.

To have been asked to log back on,means that part of Steam is still running in the background,else you would not get the request.

Or do you mean that Steam has sent you an e-mail?

Steam like everyother modern form of DRM runs in the background

[Shimrod]

Shimrod, 156 + 131 x £20 = the salary of a devloper? Really?

My sympathy is extended to you CBJ, as well as my admiration for doing so much, for so little!

Well spotted, I don't know what I was thinking Multiply it by 5!

[StarSword]

<snip mindless Steam shilling>

"Everyone's doing it" is not a valid argument. If everyone suddenly jumped off a cliff, would you say "When in Rome ..." and jump off?

I don't give a rat's ass what EA is doing, and neither should Egosoft, given that they have no connection to them. Why should people who bought a hard copy of a single-player game have to create accounts on two different websites and log into a server every time they want to play it? That's a reason given by a guy on another board for why he got annoyed with Dragon Age: Origins right off the bat. I found it doubly annoying because I bought the Ultimate Edition, which includes all the DLCs preinstalled. And yet I still had to log in every time, or else said DLCs would be inactive.

There is no rationale apart from "we want more $$$" and "we want our players to have a pseudo-Facebook". The former makes sense but doesn't apply to Egosoft (why else would they continue making games that appeal only to a select population?), and the latter is stupid because some people just want to play the game without hassle.

I don't care if that's the way the industry is going. Egosoft and Deep Silver don't seem to realize they can choose not to follow the whims of the industry, especially when a large segment of their devoted fans are singularly opposed to said whims. (Similar arguments were made against theoretical X-MMOs, incidentally.)

All anti-Steamers, repeat this refrain at the end of your posts: "Non-Steam XR release or we won't buy!"

[GCU Grey Area]

I have been using steam for several years now and I've never had any problems with it. I like that it updates the games automatically. I guess if you are using hacks and cheats it might be a problem but i don't do that.

Whats the big deal ...specifically.

For me the big deal with Steam auto-patching is the potential effect on mods & being unable to chose which version I want to play for a specific game, some versions suit a particular style of gameplay better than others.

Many of the most popular mods exist to make the game harder rather than being 'hacks and cheats'. For example, my current TC game has Improved Races installed with all the warfare options turned on. I spend a lot of time dodging huge Paranid warfleets who really hate my guts - haven't dared to build a single factory, my main income is from a mining fleet I can jump out of harms way if the Paranids ever find it. Really fun game, much tougher than vanilla. If Egosoft were still releasing TC patches would hate to have to put it on hold (potentially for weeks) if a new patch broke something in the mod.

Aside from that, even the vanilla game can benefit from being able to choose what patch level to play at. For example, the early versions had IMO a much better version of the Hub plot (i.e. before Egosoft caved in to forum demands & nerfed the amounts required for each phase of the plot), 2.1 & earlier versions have better boarding (if you prefer near suicidal M6 boarding ops against M2 targets to low risk capital ship thefts using a remote control M7M from a safe distance). Personally never bother with doing boarding ops in the later versions: no challenge = no fun. Those later versions however are much better for a trader type game since they're compatible with all the signed trade scripts in the bonus pack (CAGs etc).

[Rnett]

I have all my X games on Steam and will be purchasing any new X games ONLY on steam

I dont have any from steam...

[the-danzorz]

I have been using steam for several years now and I've never had any problems with it. I like that it updates the games automatically. I guess if you are using hacks and cheats it might be a problem but i don't do that.

Whats the big deal ...specifically.

For me the big deal with Steam auto-patching is the potential effect on mods & being unable to chose which version I want to play for a specific game, some versions suit a particular style of gameplay better than others.

Many of the most popular mods exist to make the game harder rather than being 'hacks and cheats'. For example, my current TC game has Improved Races installed with all the warfare options turned on. I spend a lot of time dodging huge Paranid warfleets who really hate my guts - haven't dared to build a single factory, my main income is from a mining fleet I can jump out of harms way if the Paranids ever find it. Really fun game, much tougher than vanilla. If Egosoft were still releasing TC patches would hate to have to put it on hold (potentially for weeks) if a new patch broke something in the mod.

Aside from that, even the vanilla game can benefit from being able to choose what patch level to play at. For example, the early versions had IMO a much better version of the Hub plot (i.e. before Egosoft caved in to forum demands & nerfed the amounts required for each phase of the plot), 2.1 & earlier versions have better boarding (if you prefer near suicidal M6 boarding ops against M2 targets to low risk capital ship thefts using a remote control M7M from a safe distance). Personally never bother with doing boarding ops in the later versions: no challenge = no fun. Those later versions however are much better for a trader type game since they're compatible with all the signed trade scripts in the bonus pack (CAGs etc).

You can disable the auto-update at anytime, this has already been said so many times in this thread.

Mods and Hacks don't get scanned for single player options, just multiplayer ones, so all scripts,mods and hacks will not cause problems. as it is a single player game selected for modding.

<snip mindless Steam shilling>

"Everyone's doing it" is not a valid argument. If everyone suddenly jumped off a cliff, would you say "When in Rome ..." and jump off?

I don't give a rat's ass what EA is doing, and neither should Egosoft, given that they have no connection to them. Why should people who bought a hard copy of a single-player game have to create accounts on two different websites and log into a server every time they want to play it? That's a reason given by a guy on another board for why he got annoyed with Dragon Age: Origins right off the bat. I found it doubly annoying because I bought the Ultimate Edition, which includes all the DLCs preinstalled. And yet I still had to log in every time, or else said DLCs would be inactive.

There is no rationale apart from "we want more $$$" and "we want our players to have a pseudo-Facebook". The former makes sense but doesn't apply to Egosoft (why else would they continue making games that appeal only to a select population?), and the latter is stupid because some people just want to play the game without hassle.

I don't care if that's the way the industry is going. Egosoft and Deep Silver don't seem to realize they can choose not to follow the whims of the industry, especially when a large segment of their devoted fans are singularly opposed to said whims. (Similar arguments were made against theoretical X-MMOs, incidentally.)

All anti-Steamers, repeat this refrain at the end of your posts: "Non-Steam XR release or we won't buy!"

I see where you are getting at, but its also not valid in my opinion.

If other developers have found a more effective way to:

Release
Update
Manage
Support
Advertise
Protect

Their game all in one solution, why would they not do it. Simply because you don't agree with the software. Its total madness and not valid at all unless your PC conflicts with steam in some odd way.

You have the same control of the game, never have to re-install, easier to backup and keep safe and also if you want the latest content, get it. Also unlock Achievements for progress and showing hard challenges completed etc.

This isn't just about money, but money is always a factor, as said above steam is easier for them to do a lot. It also benefits users a lot, as long as they are well informed on what steam can and cannot do. You don't lose a feature other then a phyical disc and 1 program is now running in the background, other then the OLD DRM that was with X2 which ALSO runs in the background before the patch came out.

So your simply replacing 1 DRM for another, but one allows you to access thousands of games, friends, content, updated and news related to what you want.

Its a better option, period.

[VincentTH]

No offence Vincent, but are you part Teladi? Thats Sssneaky! ( and good! )

No, I am no Teladi (hate their slow ships, except may be the Shrike), but I will defend my rights to death!!!

[VincentTH]

The claim: Steam help prevent 2nd-hand sale of game

Fact #1: Steam account creation only requires account name and email
Fact #2: New Gmail account can be created in 1 minute.
Fact #3: Steam Game copy activation is tied to Steam account name
Fact #4: I can have one Steam account for each game that requires Steam.

I won't say I will do it (sell X:R second hand), but it is possible to create a new Steam account for X:R, and then sell it (account + email + game) on Ebay.
This is for the sake of discussion only, for the record, I never sell anything on EBay, let alone my games.

Sharing/transferring user accounts are against Steam's EULA. EULA violations have been held as copyright violations see Blizzard v Glider: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/y ... ont-own-it

Therefore the actions you recommend are equivalent in legality to outright piracy and thus not an option. Statement stands.

With all respect we are discussing the fact that "Steam prevents 2nd-hand sale", not whether selling Steam account is legal. There is a big difference between prevention of the act and the legality of the act.

Actually, creating a new Steam account to play X:R is what I intend to do, although not with the intention to sell the game. I want to play the Steam-optional games in one account, and the Steamworks games in a different account so that I can remain off-line permanently, if need be.

[TTD]

When drive controllers and sound cards started to come integrated on motherboards, a lot of hardcore enthusiasts swore that it was a bad thing and it was just another point of failure for your system which would cause you to go through motherboards faster etc. Turns out that no one cares about that stuff any more and the more things we can integrate on motherboards(and in processors) these days, the better.

And yet,when I read reviews about PCs having on-board graphics on CPU or motherboard,they always say that the rigs are not good enough for the latest high resolution and graphics effects based games.

[the-danzorz]

When drive controllers and sound cards started to come integrated on motherboards, a lot of hardcore enthusiasts swore that it was a bad thing and it was just another point of failure for your system which would cause you to go through motherboards faster etc. Turns out that no one cares about that stuff any more and the more things we can integrate on motherboards(and in processors) these days, the better.

And yet,when I read reviews about PCs having on-board graphics on CPU or motherboard,they always say that the rigs are not good enough for the latest high resolution and graphics effects based games.

Yeah, that's TODAYs Games! he was referring to YEARS Back.