Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

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flywlyx
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by flywlyx »

LameFox wrote: Fri, 28. Feb 25, 11:24 Even if they did, I don't think L ships in low attention move in and out of range the way S/M on an attack run would. Not on purpose anyway, and I'd be kind of annoyed with most of them if they did. For most the critical thing to improve is time with weapons on target. Like if you have an inbound K you don't want your ship going in and out trying to do attack runs because it will simply be deleted. The ideal is for it to have all its main guns and as many turrets as possible slinging fire at the target from as early as it can.

But the Hyperion is agile and made of glass. I don't want it to sit and facetank anything. It has the potential to approach, fire, and back off to regen shields the way a smaller ship (ideally) would.
Generally speaking, ships shouldn't pull out of range unless necessary. If a target lacks defenses or a ship's weapons outrange the enemy's, fighters should ideally stop and open fire as well.
However, programming an AI capable of recognizing different scenarios and adapting strategies accordingly is likely too complex.

As for capital ship AI, its script follows an approach, fire, and retreat cycle—not because of low shields, but simply because the target is too close.
LameFox wrote: Fri, 28. Feb 25, 11:24 At this point I also have no particular reason to believe they are even close to making their ships fly like they appear to on the map. M ship AI needs some tweaking, but it at least broadly does the thing I'm describing, in high attention. Mostly it just needs to learn to pull away sooner.
That's the biggest drawback of the game right now—the solution to many problems is simply handling them in low attention mode.
flywlyx
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by flywlyx »

alt3rn1ty wrote: Fri, 28. Feb 25, 11:07 Yep I get that, with the new flight model I tried it with Split all round engine for the best speed, then tried it with Terran All round engine for best Travel drive activation .. I finally settled for Argon All round engine for best Boost. Then applied a few different mods, tried Slingshot, but this ship really needs Whirlygig to improve its manoeuverability which I rolled to have an additional bonus of 15% to thrust aswell as 45% on the other two. Also having a good roll of Nanotube -69 Drag -68 Mass.

I think thats about the best we can do with what the game gives us right now, to make anything better needs the devs to increase its speed, question is will they?
Meanwhile, I still feel unsafe in the Hyperion, so due to this it falls short of being my day to day ship, even with Targe or Traction mods on the shields.

I have a feeling there is something funky with this ships shielding at the moment, cant nail it but sometimes they just dont survive as well as I think they should.

Its been mentioned by someone else already, but I think it will be useful for taking down stations, so long as we have something in the fleet that can swat all the drones / fighters before they get up the Hyperions rear.
Well, that's exactly why I made this post. Whether they make the change or not is beyond my control. However, in my opinion, their future ship designs should take into account not just how the ship performs in a player's hands but also how it functions under AI control.
Targ Collective
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by Targ Collective »

In AI hands and OOS these make bad stationcrackers - I lost twenty of these to one defence platform, which is frankly terrible. They did take the platform out, however. It is probably best to treat these as super gunboats with missiles and support stationcrackers, mini destroyers. They can specialise as long range strike units with missiles which seems to be the optimum way to use them, but if they are being used for stationcracking then don't stint the fighter screen and make sure you have a few backup destroyers.

The cost of the main batteries makes these prohibitively expensive, and they do not perform well OOS against stations. They need AI in OOS for disabling station hardpoints and for using what range advantage they have.
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flywlyx
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by flywlyx »

Targ Collective wrote: Fri, 28. Feb 25, 23:15 In AI hands and OOS these make bad stationcrackers - I lost twenty of these to one defence platform, which is frankly terrible. They did take the platform out, however. It is probably best to treat these as super gunboats with missiles and support stationcrackers, mini destroyers. They can specialise as long range strike units with missiles which seems to be the optimum way to use them, but if they are being used for stationcracking then don't stint the fighter screen and make sure you have a few backup destroyers.

The cost of the main batteries makes these prohibitively expensive, and they do not perform well OOS against stations. They need AI in OOS for disabling station hardpoints and for using what range advantage they have.
Which is completely fine—I actually hope for more limitations like these. Ships should have designated roles rather than being capable of doing everything.
LameFox
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by LameFox »

flywlyx wrote: Fri, 28. Feb 25, 20:11 Generally speaking, ships shouldn't pull out of range unless necessary. If a target lacks defenses or a ship's weapons outrange the enemy's, fighters should ideally stop and open fire as well.
However, programming an AI capable of recognizing different scenarios and adapting strategies accordingly is likely too complex.

As for capital ship AI, its script follows an approach, fire, and retreat cycle—not because of low shields, but simply because the target is too close.
The fighters in 7.5 do sometimes stop and fire. For them they can at least kind of strafe a bit so they're not totally stationary, and some incoming shots miss, but I've seen it get them heavy weapons to the face, too. Imagine an M or weak L doing that when it turns out it wasn't out of weapons range at all, the target just wasn't shooting at it yet—or in some cases it was and the plasma hasn't arrived yet. The distance they strafe is much smaller relative to the size of their ship than it is for an S, so a little bit of strafing may not be enough (granted turret accuracy is terrible right now lol) and in order to get moving they first have to accelerate into a turn, so pre-emptive mobility is probably a better idea for them.

I think of it sort of like fighter jets or helicopters releasing flares while they attack, because they don't know if someone nearby is about to send a heat-seeking missile their way. Our X ships can see guided missiles (even passive ones I think), but not regular weapons fire, so for those that can't afford to tank hits and then move out of the way, the continual manoeuvring of attack runs can serve as a preventative measure.
***modified***
Targ Collective
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by Targ Collective »

I've tested Heavy missiles on a Hyperion and am forced to concede that it cannot gain ranged supremacy because it will not fire them. Optimum loadout for anticaptal is Light Cluster Missiles because the damage/range difference for Light Dumbfire mk II is only worth a few short moments' closing distance.

The light shielding and poor range seriously limits the Hyperion unless used in large numbers, and losses will be commonplace. It is obviously intended as a lightly shielded mid-range brawler with deep missile reserves, but the range being limited to Light missiles reduces the scope of the design significantly.

Light shielding, poor range and decent manoeuvrability is a bad combo in AI hands, although the Hyperion has definitely been balanced around being fun to personally fly first. Needs beefier shielding or a range advantage against practically anything in range to shoot back.

To outfit Hyperions as specialist anticapital killers, you'll want all dumbfire turrets with Light Clusters set to Attack only Capitals. A more balanced approach might give the top turrets point defenses - I'm running Terran beams front top and Terran bolters front back - so that you won't be reliant on just main guns against fighters.
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Targ Collective
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by Targ Collective »

Further to my prior - in my Heavy Missiles testbed the Hyperion was using an all missile build and utilising Light Swarm missiles against fighters. I'm going to do more testing and will report my findings; it might be the case that the turrets can't equip Tracking and Dumbfire missiles at the same time. I'll do some test runs and see if it looks like I need to file a bug report.

I'm tired and have a had a long day, but if a Mod or Dev sees this and can mock up a testbed before I can set one up with saves then so much the better. Turrets should have four ammo slots - Heavy Dumbfire, Light Dumbfire, Heavy Tracking, Light Tracking - and the AI to use them. At least Dumbfire and Tracking, right?
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Targ Collective
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by Targ Collective »

Can confirm that the Hyperion will fire heavy missiles if they are the only missile type, but they have neither he range nor damage potential to defend against a K while stationcracking. Hyperions in groups can absolutely destroy Xenon defense platforms but a loadout of heavy clusters doesn't have the right range/damage balance to defend against Ks while so doing, so I'm going to try them on longer range Dumbfire Mk II missiles and see how that impacts survivability.

I am convinced that the key to these is missiles for range and main batteries for damage. Clusters travel too slow and fire from too short range to be a viable anticapital defense while stationcracking, so let's try Dumbfires. :)
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Targ Collective
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by Targ Collective »

Okay, so here are my final notes on Hyperions.

Hyperions can fire heavy and light missiles just fine, but only seem able to use one missile type at a time. Since the thing missiles potentially bring to the table is range advantage the optimum loadout seems to be Mk II Dumbfires. Cluster will deal more damage per missile but more dumbfires will close the distance - save clusters, like torpedos, for strikecraft.

Hyperions work really well for rapid response, and if they have Mk II Dumbfires can deal with capitals at range in sufficient numbers. They are ill suited to stationcracking because they have a tendency to not fully utilise missile range advantage and favour it over main batteries if Attack with Fleet is used.

Hyperions are probably the most fun player ship and escort ship in the game, primarily due to the heat tolerant weapon, deep missile reserves and mobility. They are also glass cannons - your escorts will need missile range advantage against real destroyers, and your main ship will need careful piloting to take out turrets swiftly. They have stationcracking damage rating, particularly if you scale up the numbers, but don't expect to take a Xenon sector with just these without losses and some micromanagement.

Their specialisation should be treated as a lightly shielded tactical destroyer with long-range missile capabilities. Two Hyperions will have enough main battery power to match an Osaka at near range, but the near range and light shielding leaves them ill suited to clearing sectors. In my testing twenty Hyperions set to bombard would not successfully clear one Xenon Defense platform and were reliant on missiles to take out defending capitals.

If they had stationcracking range and damage, maybe through some Hyperion-only missile and missile turret, they could easily replace Destroyers in your fleet, but they probably are not supposed to. As a personal guard they are extremely powerful with deep missile reserves for taking out enemies before they close distance and will keep up with the player with high mobility.

Fleet specialisation: Lightly shielded and maneuverable tactical destroyer with deep missile reserves to offset the relatively poor range. Commit to either long range unguided or moderate range guided, and long rage unguided is the better option for this type of ship as the main batteries are quite capable of outperforming tracking missiles.

I'm hoping these notes will be useful! But unless anyone has further questions on Hyperions I'll let this thread go as I've probably contributed enough here. :)
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Duke Flipside
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by Duke Flipside »

Hyperion is already OP as a player ship and fast as heck, it doesn't need a buff. Sapporo, maybe.
Rastuasi
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by Rastuasi »

Duke Flipside wrote: Sun, 9. Mar 25, 12:23 Hyperion is already OP as a player ship and fast as heck, it doesn't need a buff. Sapporo, maybe.
Realize this thread isn't about player ship, but as an AI fleet ship.
flywlyx
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Re: Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

Post by flywlyx »

Duke Flipside wrote: Sun, 9. Mar 25, 12:23 Hyperion is already OP as a player ship and fast as heck, it doesn't need a buff. Sapporo, maybe.
Based on what standards? Experimental Shuttle? Erlking? Asgard? Rattlesnake? Syn? Those are overpowered. Hyperion is convenient but far from overpowered. Even with the 50% speed boost I suggested, it would still be far from overpowered. Given the current AI's capabilities, agility doesn't offer much advantage to either the player or the AI.

While a 50% speed boost could at least help it escape under AI control, with its current parameters, it doesn’t offer much value in an AI fleet or in the late game.

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