Devs please read! | An Old Dog that doesn't like the new tricks

[Nanook]

...
While you love to stand on your empty, lifless station...

You must be doing something wrong. My stations are neither empty nor lifeless. I have dozens of NPC's, of many different races and factions, walking around with whom I can interract, not to mention station traders and managers. This is both on my stations and NPC stations. Yeah, they're all a bit samey, but Egosoft is still working on that. I'm 100% with vvvvvvv on this. While I loved the X3's and played them to death, I haven't gone back since X4 released (11,000+ hours and counting). There's so much more life in X4 that X3 now seems "empty and lifeless" to me.

[vvvvvvvv]

You are speaking about singular player experiences (you have right to do so as anybody else) but this is devolving into...

Fundamentally you and me play the game for very different reasons, and I likely do not share your interests. That also means that if features you desire diminish things I enjoy, I'll oppose implementation of those features.

Things that make me WOAH are things that make me play the game and tell other people about the game and attract more people with the same interest. So that's a feature that attracts players. X4 has a lot of things you can't do in Elite Dangerous. Which is why I no longer play Elite Dangerous. What's more, my WOAH brings revenue, because I'll be buying addons that contribute to the experience. For example, I do not feel anything about original Hyperion, but the DLC is interesting to me, because it is said to be a ship with continuous interior. That aligns with my interests. There's reason why I play the game and not some sort of ASCII space sim or original Elite from 1980s. Those features contribute to that reason.

your empty, lifless station

To have NPCs on stations, you need to build habitation modules and supply them with food and medicine. A full station has quite a lot of people around.

I would be happy to have (at least) ability to *SKIP!*.

Press Shift+D to instantly teleport to the pilot seat from any point on the station.

during the XR days the 'stationwalking' was overwhemingly hated

Those days were 12 years ago and have passed. Basically you're appealing to what people would've wanted back then. But we do not live back then, but we live now. Back then X4 did not exist, it does exist now.

I am addressing the issue of overstretching resources - attempting to archive concurrent

I'm of opinion that that's business of the studio and its owners and not ours. Neither of us is one of the devs, neither risk anything. Meanwhile the company places its future as a bet. You believe that those things are a problem, but that's an opinion, and it can be easily an incorrect one.

And if it is not your cup of tea, Farnham's Legacy is available on steam right now for free. Polished X3 style game.

[jlehtone]

It was unthinkable. Because it was unthinkable, it was not ever considered as possible. Because it was never considered as possible, people would not have requested it.

True. On the other hand, some players have requested "ship packs" that they could pay for.

[StoneLegionYT]

It was unthinkable. Because it was unthinkable, it was not ever considered as possible. Because it was never considered as possible, people would not have requested it.

True. On the other hand, some players have requested "ship packs" that they could pay for.

Yup in fact timelines had a massive uptick in said request and I assume on the reasons it happen. Their prob going to try it once or twice then go back to their normal ways. We know something big is coming in 2026. I will be happy to support them and get us through this year and into half of next year as long as Egosoft delivers and I have a feeling their going to do just that.

[vvvvvvvv]

True. On the other hand, some players have requested "ship packs" that they could pay for.

People like ships, want more ships and so they request ships. That's reasonable, no? There are even people who want Albion Skunk back.

[StoneLegionYT]

True. On the other hand, some players have requested "ship packs" that they could pay for.

People like ships, want more ships and so they request ships. That's reasonable, no? There are even people who want Albion Skunk back.

Hmmm, I want that ship again LOL.

[Raptor34]

It was unthinkable. Because it was unthinkable, it was not ever considered as possible. Because it was never considered as possible, people would not have requested it.

True. On the other hand, some players have requested "ship packs" that they could pay for.

Yup in fact timelines had a massive uptick in said request and I assume on the reasons it happen. Their prob going to try it once or twice then go back to their normal ways. We know something big is coming in 2026. I will be happy to support them and get us through this year and into half of next year as long as Egosoft delivers and I have a feeling their going to do just that.

We'll also need to see the quality of this one too.
Because the issue with big DLCs is that eventually you'll have some stupid non-themed DLC containing a bunch of stuff different parts of the playerbase wants but are all individually too small to slot in anywhere.
Like going back to Timelines, I'm sure there are people who would rather just pay for the ships. Though I'm not saying that it's non-themed, but you get what I mean.

[vvvvvvvv]

We'll also need to see the quality of this one too.
Because the issue with big DLCs is that eventually you'll have some stupid non-themed DLC containing a bunch of stuff different parts of the playerbase wants but are all individually too small to slot in anywhere.
Like going back to Timelines, I'm sure there are people who would rather just pay for the ships. Though I'm not saying that it's non-themed, but you get what I mean.

Well, there's no perfect solution that makes everybody happy, so it is up to devs to decide which path they take. It can always go sideways regardless of the choice.

For example, there's a group that would pay for VR support, but apparently demand is not high. Or maybe the stars are not yet right and it is necessary to awaken Cthulhu first. *shrug*

[jlehtone]

True. On the other hand, some players have requested "ship packs" that they could pay for.

People like ships, want more ships and so they request ships. That's reasonable, no? There are even people who want Albion Skunk back.

Yes it is. I've never seen the Skunk, but I believe you.

This thread did start by players, who do not want a pack that one would have to pay for.
Is the difference the amount of ships, or the ship being something you loathe?

[vvvvvvvv]

Yes it is. I've never seen the Skunk, but I believe you.

Well, it looks like this:
https://roguey.co.uk/xrebirth/ships/albion-skunk/



I unfortunately do not have any "normal" screenshots of this thing, only those "stereo" ones.

I do not find it pretty.

This thread did start by players, who do not want a pack that one would have to pay for.
Is the difference the amount of ships, or the ship being something you loathe?

I assume the concern here is hypothetical scenario where Egosoft becomes Paradox (City Skylines). Or Keen (Space Engineers). Or Electronic Arts. Or FDev (Elite Dangerous)

Paradox is known for their greed, and have huge number of DLCs, some of which are quite small. Keen was releasin "purely cosmetic" blocks for a long time, which did not have a lot of content for each DLC. FDev aggressively pushes ARX in-game currency.

That's what it looks to me anyway.

[azaghal]

Of course - queue the gaslighting the moment someone becomes more vocal and persistent in criticism of the game (this is maybe not the game for you, implement your own, you must be doing something wrong)... I really wish people would stop throwing out these non-arguments so lightly in the defense of X series, and try to be a little bit more critical on how the game is designed, implemented, and played - particularly by new players, or players who have no intention in spending 1000 hours playing (coping with) the game.

@TroubledRabbit at this point you sound like you be better off finding another game you enjoy. Sounds like this is just not one for you. Maybe make your own game since you have all the answers. I like to actually try out such an idea. Give me a buzz once it's out.

To get the good ol' "make your own game" thing out of the way - not everyone has the talent, ability, experience, inclination, opportunity, or time to do so. And even if you do - there is a big difference between playing a game that has been created by someone else, where everything is unknown, or a game you have developed yourself and know every nook and cranny of. A lot of exploratory and discovery aspects of playing someone else's game are lost when you play your own game. Not to mention that most people play games to relax a bit and/or get out of their everyday existence - they are not interested in making it into a job. And one more thing - the game does make some tall promises in description material posted on game stores - without mentioning performance issues/limitations, jank, bugs, etc. It tries to sound, look, and feel appealing as much as possible (the industry standard). So, when you do that, then also be prepared to get whiny players (yours truly included) complaining about the game when it fails to deliver. People have paid money for the product, and they will complain if the product is not satisfying. (and, quite frankly, this complaining can become an excellent feedback and free input/research for development studios, provided they want to listen to it - heck, the whole beta program is basically unpaid tester/QA labour)

On the "not the right game for you" thing - I have not seen anything in the posts that TroubledRabbit has made in this thread so far that would indicate this game is not for him/her. In fact, there is enough details contained to indicate that it actually is _exactly_ the person this game is for. The X4 (and the whole X series) has some amazing concepts as its basis - it has this incredible feel of going from rags to riches, hitting it out on your own or building up a massive empire, being a pirate, warlord, corporation, or even mixing some or all of these together. It is also one of the rare space sim/flight games out there. But where the X4 (and probably some of the older titles as well - although I think some stuff may function better in them) falls flat is the implementation/details side.

In my personal experiences with the game so far, I share TroubledRabbit's general opinion that most of the implemented features feel half-arsed. Or, if you want to put it in politer terms - features get implemented about 80-90% along the way, with minimum effort required to reach some kind of minimum viable product that can be shipped and that a buyer would spend money for - with a couple of exceptions (like UI that probably needs to be completely thrown out and redone from scratch). The thing is - those 10-20% is what makes the difference between really good and mediocre (or even bad) games. Now, I am not necessarily saying things are purposefully done this way, but it _feels_ like it (and I take great pleasure in understanding the differences between know and feel).

So far I have had roughly three play-throughs - once with 6.20 (as Argon, vanilla-ish), once with 7.0 (as Terran, vanilla), and once with 7.10 (as Paranid, vanilla) release (even got one heavily modded save game I have abandoned roughly in mid-game). This means I have seen two cycles of major(-ish) updates being done to the game so far. The thing is - even though some new features and changes were really welcome, each and every single one of those felt off in one way or another - something did not work quite right, was not as convenient to use, imposed arbitrary restrictions, had bad UI, required more steps than necessary etc. There are also some aspects of the major story lines that could have been done better, especially towards the end (although, some main stories are quite decent/engaging - like the Terran one). And simply reading through the current 7.50 beta release cycle - it feels like it will be more of the same. Meanwhile, all those little annoyances and flaws that are not addressed add up over time, resulting in a "death by thousand paper cuts" scenario.

All of this said - I am not even taking into the account all the jank the game exhibits, performance issues, or all the meta required to effectively play the game (and reduce frustration). Jank can every now and then at least be a little funny or provide for some form of memorable stories (like my 5 behemoths getting pummeled by single K because the Xenon had targeted the leading ship which is trying to get away, and his four subordinates are following it in formation - queue The Benny Hill Show chase music).

(btw, for all those "fully simulated universe" people - high attention vs low attention produces completely different results)

...
While you love to stand on your empty, lifless station...

You must be doing something wrong.

Given the number of times this seems to be repeated to players... Maybe, just maybe, there is something wrong with the game itself? Can we even indulge this as a possibility? Or, if it turns out that a player _is_ doing something wrong, perhaps the question to ask is not what - but why? I do not think that TroubledRabbit is doing anything wrong in this particular case, though - I think it is merely an expression of opinion.

My stations are neither empty nor lifeless. I have dozens of NPC's, of many different races and factions, walking around with whom I can interract, not to mention station traders and managers. This is both on my stations and NPC stations. Yeah, they're all a bit samey, but Egosoft is still working on that. I'm 100% with vvvvvvv on this. While I loved the X3's and played them to death, I haven't gone back since X4 released (11,000+ hours and counting). There's so much more life in X4 that X3 now seems "empty and lifeless" to me.

I have stations with dozens of NPC's too (usually one race since I can't be bothered to mess around with multiple food types), walking around with whom I can interact, station traders all over the place, and maybe even a manager here and there. And it is still lifeless. They are repetitive (particularly with non-humans), boring, without facial expressions, without character, without purpose, without interesting chatter, without ability to share any kind of useful information with the player. Ships that land and take off actually provide more life than these NPCs. The only interesting thing I see NPCs sometimes do is when they approach console as you are landing or maybe approach your ship with extinguisher or whatever. And some of the NPC stations are particularly bad in this regard... The production stations are quite often devoid of any crew, and maybe the biggest "offender" are wharves and shipyards - massive stations where you would expect incredible amount of activity, and a crapload of good pilots you can hire - yet it is mostly empty. While I actually like a lot of the aesthetics and the especially the scale of things in X4 - stations, even if you have NPCs on them, look and feel very, very sterile.

Just to close off on a bit more of a positive note, I have been a fan of the X games for a long while - particularly for the general feel and all the basic ideas behind. I have played X: Beyond the Frontier back when it came out when I was a kid, and I still remember how awed I was. It really felt amazing to be entering this vast unknown universe, interacting with sentient aliens, trading, fighting, and building your own empire and fortunes far away from home. The fact that plenty of X series is also made available natively under GNU/Linux is a big plus in my book as well. But still - criticisms stand, especially given that the series/game has been in development for over 25 years now, and other (new) indie studios are putting out some really highly polished masterpieces out there.

Best regards,
Branko

P.S.
I always end up feeling sorry when I add to kerfuffle in this manner when OPs (Dreamora in this case) had completely different intentions when starting the thread, but these three arguments I have repeatedly seen have really started to ruffle my feathers...

[Nanook]

...

My stations are neither empty nor lifeless. I have dozens of NPC's, of many different races and factions, walking around with whom I can interract, not to mention station traders and managers. This is both on my stations and NPC stations. Yeah, they're all a bit samey, but Egosoft is still working on that. I'm 100% with vvvvvvv on this. While I loved the X3's and played them to death, I haven't gone back since X4 released (11,000+ hours and counting). There's so much more life in X4 that X3 now seems "empty and lifeless" to me.

I have stations with dozens of NPC's too (usually one race since I can't be bothered to mess around with multiple food types), walking around with whom I can interact, station traders all over the place, and maybe even a manager here and there. And it is still lifeless. ...

Perhaps, if you're comparing them to the Sims or some other game whose sole purpose is character interactions. But comparing them to previous X games, which is what I was doing, they're full of 'life', and they most certainly aren't empty.

[Buzz2005]

totally agree with TroubledRabbit, not that old but getting there and see the change, it kinda had to happen but ego does go a little to much with "halfdone" features, really giving it the minimum on some etc...

crisis is my prime example, for a game where fighting is dependent on a lot of things and have no spawning for it and a lot of times you can't find much to go fight against (xenons get killed even without you doing anything ), to give us that really weak crisis is disappointing
this is mostly me personally missing x3 spawning since I could always go and fight, small.ships or huge armadas.
bring back spawning

you can see how something will turn up when they mention some new feature in passing, as a oh and btw we will implement a crisis for end game and that's it.... players where all nice, good, how will it look, what will we do, what are we against... all where not answered in detail bc they knew how bare it is, the crisis thread showed it clearly, and looks like thats what they intend to keep

[azaghal]

...

My stations are neither empty nor lifeless. I have dozens of NPC's, of many different races and factions, walking around with whom I can interract, not to mention station traders and managers. This is both on my stations and NPC stations. Yeah, they're all a bit samey, but Egosoft is still working on that. I'm 100% with vvvvvvv on this. While I loved the X3's and played them to death, I haven't gone back since X4 released (11,000+ hours and counting). There's so much more life in X4 that X3 now seems "empty and lifeless" to me.

I have stations with dozens of NPC's too (usually one race since I can't be bothered to mess around with multiple food types), walking around with whom I can interact, station traders all over the place, and maybe even a manager here and there. And it is still lifeless. ...

Perhaps, if you're comparing them to the Sims or some other game whose sole purpose is character interactions. But comparing them to previous X games, which is what I was doing, they're full of 'life', and they most certainly aren't empty.

Hey, if you set a bar low enough...

Best regards,
Branko

[Baconnaise]

Yes it is. I've never seen the Skunk, but I believe you.

Well, it looks like this:
https://roguey.co.uk/xrebirth/ships/albion-skunk/



I unfortunately do not have any "normal" screenshots of this thing, only those "stereo" ones.

I do not find it pretty.

I'm a little surprised someone wants the skunk. The sheer disdain and disgust of being stuck to the ship was a constant quibble. The odd thing was your ship didn't change as you progressed. The loadout on weapons would show up but no external changes. Very odd when it's all you have as a player. I will say it was cool being able to change cockpit themes. I liked that construction one personally.

[vvvvvvvv]

I'm a little surprised someone wants the skunk. The sheer disdain and disgust of being stuck to the ship was a constant quibble. The odd thing was your ship didn't change as you progressed. The loadout on weapons would show up but no external changes. Very odd when it's all you have as a player. I will say it was cool being able to change cockpit themes. I liked that construction one personally.

My main question was "where do those 50 marines actually stay". Regarding cockpit, I primarily played it in VR, and unfortunately in VR "blue moon" layout is unbeatable, because that's the only one where you see all indicators at once. Construction cockpit was cool in flatscreen, but with depth perception added it becomes quite cramped. Those cool pipes pass very close to pilot's head.

[azaghal]

I'm a little surprised someone wants the skunk. The sheer disdain and disgust of being stuck to the ship was a constant quibble. The odd thing was your ship didn't change as you progressed. The loadout on weapons would show up but no external changes. Very odd when it's all you have as a player. I will say it was cool being able to change cockpit themes. I liked that construction one personally.

My main question was "where do those 50 marines actually stay".

I think this has something to do with spatial compression (or whatever it is called) being a well-established technology in the X Universe lore So... You probably don't want to know... I am still pondering where even the limited crew you get in existing small fighters in X4 disappears off to when they enter the transporter.

Not really complaining about it much (I'll opt for some convenience over "realism" or immersion), but just finding it funny every now and then as well.

[taztaz502]

The whole mini DLC of a single OP ship and a quest is just milking it now.

If this is the future of egosoft i'll be giving future content and X5 a miss.

[taztaz502]

Just vote with your wallet to be honest.

If egosoft want to go this route simply don't give them your money and avoid X5 when it's released.

[Otas Elite]

during the XR days the 'stationwalking' was overwhemingly hated

Those days were 12 years ago and have passed. Basically you're appealing to what people would've wanted back then. But we do not live back then, but we live now. Back then X4 did not exist, it does exist now.

And I just stopped playing because of it. I absolutely hate stationwalking when it's forced, like for some quests or faction representive stuff. I have 20h in the game, at some point I just ALT+F4 and uninstalled it. Just because every game has it now does not mean everyone who likes space games likes it.