Jump Drives - 6 Years Later, Still Nothing?

[jlehtone]

I'm sorry to correct you but I just checked @jlehtone.
The ships still fly behind the gate and turn a small percentage to then jump.

Oh, you did not mean how NPC ships did enter the Gate from "behind" and exit from Gate from "front"?
You did mean this current "vanish/appear in a flash near Gate"?

[Witzzard]

@Hakenden
I think you've got a strange idea on the pathing calculations.
Yes you'll likely have more pathing calculations if you cound it on a per meter basis or on the general time to calculate the sectors a ship has to fly through - as i'd think they calculate a general sector route and in-sector route the moment ships enter the sector and not full routes all the time. The limit we're seeing isn't "Calculations per meter flown", but "calculations per meters" - so making travel quciker is hardly reducing calculations per second, as it only means the next calculation will begin earlier.
On the flip side for jump gates - a lot of calculations (back to signed scripts in X2) have been based upon gate distance and limited te usage of jumpgates to high level pilots. The reason for that is that unlimited range, means a much higher potential need for calculations on each trade decision. Because you no longer just need to check for the stations, say in a handful of sectors, but in all sectors.

Having written that, i'm not against jump drives, i just think your argument missed some things.

[hakenden]

Firstly, I try to assess the advantages, effects and disadvantages.
For me, the most important thing is to see something holistically and then be able to justify it.
Reducing the computing load for X4 should be a main goal, followed by the quality of live functions and last but not least, what impact would this have on the game and how much effort is involved.
In terms of computing power, the X4 engine is not exactly known for its efficiency, so you should approach the matter differently (in my opinion). I should list what consumes how many resources and then see ok how can I reduce the peak and the total load.
And this is where the jump drive comes into play in my opinion.
Sure it will take more effort to implement the jump Drive, and it will definitely change the universe. But let's go on, X4 and its sectors will expand, the universe will get bigger, at the latest then a function will have to be created that relieves the player's workload. technically, I can also solve this with a hub, but the jump drive is simply more traditional for X4 and I prefer it by far.

This is because the jump drive has other advantages:
- the player actively loses money and does not get rich so quickly.
- The universe gets a higher throughput rate of energy
energy cells and, depending on the concept, even new markets are created.
- The fleet Ai produces fewer bugs because there is less distance to travel.
- I can intervene more quickly in situations.

There are more points but for a rough overview it should be enough.

@jlehtone
That's exactly what I mean and let's be honest, the flash at the end is almost like a jump only one sector wide.

@Witzzard
I am by nature someone who thinks things through and rather less calculates, unfortunately and sometimes fortunately. But generally speaking, this intervention should have a relieving effect.
Provided it is implemented efficiently and cleverly.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

[jlehtone]

In terms of computing power, the X4 engine is not exactly known for its efficiency, so you should approach the matter differently (in my opinion). I should list what consumes how many resources and then see ok how can I reduce the peak and the total load.
And this is where the jump drive comes into play in my opinion.

Egosoft has mean to profile their code, so they know what the bottlenecks are. My opinion is that pathing does not matter.

the jump drive is simply more traditional for X4 and I prefer it by far.

One had no access to JumpDrive in Xbtf, if you want "traditional" ... and I prefer that by far.

Sure it will take more effort to implement the jump Drive, and it will definitely change the universe.

- the player actively loses money and does not get rich so quickly.
- The universe gets a higher throughput rate of energy
energy cells and, depending on the concept, even new markets are created.

The way I see it, that would be a huge implementation task and radical change in design.

Besides, you make assumptions about what jump will require in the game. It could as well be based on Protectyon or adult Markus Spaceflies ...

That's exactly what I mean and let's be honest, the flash at the end is almost like a jump only one sector wide.

Of course, because the Gate is and has always been "a one sector wide jump".

[hakenden]

You can also play without Teraner, travel drive and boost in the traditional way.


You are also welcome to believe that this is a radical change, but X4 in particular proves that it is full of such changes.
Just look at the original planning of X4, without L and XL ships (which is why highways cannot be used by L and XL).
No, changes are the order of the day in X4.

Nevertheless, it should be thought through at the same time which drive and ship mechanics are still needed?

Sinza is that still up to date?
Or would you prefer a travelling drive?

[Falcrack]

If I were to want jump drive in X4, I would want it with a number of restrictions compared to X3 to not make it OP. A few rules I might consider:

1. Limited to L and XL ships

2. Long cool down time after jumping before next available jump (maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour, means that even using jump drive, large ships would still have to use travel drive for several segments of their journey)

3. Requires at least 50% shield strength to jump (prevents jumping as an easy way to escape a bad situation)

4. Can only jump to vicinity of friendly stations at which a special jump beacon module has been installed, not gates (prevents jumping behind enemy lines, but allows quick responses to enemy attacks)

5. Uses a special expensive fuel for each jump, with amount of fuel used dependent on range (gives a cost to consider to discourage too frequent use of jump drives, maybe enough to negate the profits from a trade run if using jump drive)

6. Longish jump drive charge time after initiating jump sequence before jumping (maybe 1 minute or so)

7. Option to allow or disallow automatic jumping by your ships in behaviors menu

Jump drives would mainly serve to allow a fleet to rapidly respond to enemy attacks in distant sectors. With these restrictions, it would not be the default way that ships use for trading or bypassing the enemy.

[Nulric]

I feel like the only iteration of the jump drive that's worth implementing in X4 at this point would be the unfocused jump drive. I admit that, early on, I thought the absence of the standard jump drive was a bummer. I have since adjusted to, and embraced, the idea in X4 now, especially with player teleportation being available, when fully researched.

I've posted about this before, but I think the unfocused jump drive would be an interesting mechanism by which to introduce randomly generated sectors to X4 for exploration, and to pepper around those random sectors interesting rewards. Everything from derelict ships both small and huge, to simple lock boxes, or anything else one can imagine being interesting, or fun to look for and find.

Of course, those sorts of rewards are not all going to be super lore friendly, but I'm sure that could be resolved to an extent. And, probably, in short order players would find all there was to find, and then what would you bother to use the drive for at that point?

Also, there's the problem that, if you use the unfocused drive to jump IN to a random sector, and you find a derelict ship, by what mechanism do you retrieve that derelict ship and get it OUT of that sector, and home? It doesn't feel right to put unfocused drives on all of those ships from a lore perspective, so they can perform a focused jump back to a known universe sector.

Alternatively, this sort of thing could be achieved by making use of the teleportation anomalies that already exist in the game, rather than by adding the unfocused jump drive itself. This would solve the whole "How do I get this ship home?" problem, as well as the inconsistency of having no jump drives, but having only the unfocused version in the game. This was suggested by forum members other than myself in the last thread I made where we were discussing a potential unfocused jump drive, and I think it might be a good alternative.

Additionally I would think that, like the old games, these random sectors would still need to be removed once player vacated them, for the sake of performance. But as an exploration aspect, it might be a lot of fun, if perhaps limited, in certain aspects.

Just my two cents, that's all.

[partycomfortable]

3. Requires at least 50% shield strength to jump (prevents jumping as an easy way to escape a bad situation)

It's generally a strategic thing to be able to do in a lot of the scifi world. Battlestar Galactica (the early 2000s/late 90s iteration) they used jump drives to cat and mouse cyclons. It's how they initially survived then played into strategies that provided victories against overwhelming odds. See the same thing in star trek when it's always "Captain the warp drive is offline!" while the enterprise battles for survival until engineering sorts out the warp core and they blast away. Or teleport off a planet. Whatever. Stellaris, you enter battle and you need time for jump drives to come on line to retreat, or for your science ships to escape a losing proposition.

The change in strategy would be wild and would probably require rebalancing AI factions but it wouldn't be terribly crazy in the realm. If you could blink away after say, X amount of time, I think you would want it like star trek at least where they can use the warp trail to at least have a general direction they went. Or, like Stellaris if you do an emergency jump, which itself takes time, you don't have time to really set navigation so you jump and pop out somewhere else later that is a gamble. You could end up in a pickle with your fleet on the other side of the map with a perilous journey back.

[BrigandPhantos77]

I really haven't spent much time playing X4, but I would suggest Jumps only ending at Jump Beacons that you are allowed to jump to. X3:FL had an option to set them to allow Friend, Neutral or only you. No longer ending at gates. That would make them less OP, and make them usable to places that really matter to you. Sorry this topic caught my eye/interest.

Cheers!

[flywlyx]

It's generally a strategic thing to be able to do in a lot of the scifi world. Battlestar Galactica (the early 2000s/late 90s iteration) they used jump drives to cat and mouse cyclons. It's how they initially survived then played into strategies that provided victories against overwhelming odds. See the same thing in star trek when it's always "Captain the warp drive is offline!" while the enterprise battles for survival until engineering sorts out the warp core and they blast away. Or teleport off a planet. Whatever. Stellaris, you enter battle and you need time for jump drives to come on line to retreat, or for your science ships to escape a losing proposition.

The change in strategy would be wild and would probably require rebalancing AI factions but it wouldn't be terribly crazy in the realm. If you could blink away after say, X amount of time, I think you would want it like star trek at least where they can use the warp trail to at least have a general direction they went. Or, like Stellaris if you do an emergency jump, which itself takes time, you don't have time to really set navigation so you jump and pop out somewhere else later that is a gamble. You could end up in a pickle with your fleet on the other side of the map with a perilous journey back.

I think the simplest solution would be to implement hyper relays similar to those in Stellaris. Faction ships would still need to travel to gates but could skip all sectors belonging to them or their allies.

This way, enemies would still need to fight in the border sectors, making defense much easier for NPCs as capital ships could respond much faster.