Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.

[Slashman]

Modders should have 2 Ds right? At least I think so...

[Pesanur]

I dont mind steam. It's in-game overlay is useful. and its easy access to games is good for finding new stuff. Lotsa sales too.

What I dont want is something similar to what Ubisoft done with Assassins Creed. Not only does it need steam, it needs it's own client thing to run at the same time.

Im all for steam. Plus im terrible with discs.

Agreed.

I tolerate steam because it isn't intrusive. The interface is kept clean and simple. Because of that, it has grown on me over the years.

Ubisoft is doing that, because it considers itself a big competitor; All of them are following in Blizzard's footsteps (battlenet) for game delivery over an in-house digital platform. Origin, for EA.

The problem is...Battlenet makes sense from the tournament history blizzard has with its games. But with others it's just an inconvenience.

Not to mention Ubisoft is the worst company in the world. They rescue dying franchises and butcher them. And we all know how dysfunctional their DRM methods are. That's about it.

Keep in mint that the main sharefolder of Ubisoft is EA, and that before EA become the main sharefolder, Ubisoft has starterd to shell games at competitive prices, and some of them without DRM's, you know, all those that EA have allergy.

Sorry for the Off-Topic.

[quase]

I originally bought the Orange Box when it came out, but I was stationed in Germany. Local laws forbade them from showing any violence against people, so when I played TF2 all I saw when I shot people was toys popping out.

Steam very well could not have released the violent version in Germany or they would have been banned in that country. If you think that they can't ban them, they can. Germany uses a special internet registry that they control as do some other countries, removing URLs and IPs from the list would pretty much make Steam unreachable in that country. Do you really think they should have done it anyways for the player, only to have the player lose access to their games? Steam is not just protecting themselves, they are protecting your investment as that further protects themselves from civil suits.

Actually titles that are not on the index and rated 18+ do not need to be censored, but have to be out of the reach for people below the legal age. The orange box are Valve games, so they only run on Steam and just because Steam does not offer uncensored games in Germany, you have to live with it.
It is the duty of the seller to control and verify the legal age. If Steam would allow Postident or a similar verification rather than just the "How old are you" question on some titles, they could sell you any title without censorship. It is solely Steam/Valve that is not willing to solve this situation although it would be possible to do without breaking any law.

For imported games it works mostly this way: you buy them uncensored in the UK for example and can activate them in Germany without being censored. You buy the same title directly in Germany and you can only activate the censored game. No way you can ever get the "real" game this way.
Steam could even enforce a ban of game later if it is banned in Germany in the future. Did not happen yet, still the possibility remains.

Now I say it again, I do not need a digital babysitter or somebody with overly anticipatory obedience because they are not willing to use an age verification or similar identification system. In a real store I may have to show my identity card when I buy a 18+ title, but that's it. No big hassle or even further censorship, except when the game is "content controlled" by Steam for example.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

Fact is, the publishers will not get away with 50 € for their games on release if they head for digital distribution only at some point in the future.

Yes. Yes they will. And they'll get away with it because people who really want a game are willing to pay that much. Hell, take a look at the iPhone. People will not only pay over the top for a mobile phone that really has no distinguishing features that really sets it above any other mobile, but they will willingly and literally camp outside of stores by their hundreds just to get one on day one.

Not sure about the rest of the world but in Canada uncapped data plans are going to be a thing of the past in not to distant future.
Not surprising really.Bell sells 10 gig of 3g+ for 70 dollars a month,15 dollars a gig if your go over.No wonder they and the others are looking at there hardwired plans and thinking they are giving the data away.

Not a Steam issue. Perhaps more something that should be taken up with your greedy service providers?

If egosoft release a non steam version of AP it will treat the people who buy it as second class buyers as they will not be able to get any DLC,which in my opion is a sneaky way of trying to get people to use steam.I do not believe they will release a none steam game,the old one

Kind of like Microsoft who have discontinued XP support. I suppose that's Microsoft just treating it's loyal XP supporters as second class citizens and trying to force them to upgrade to Win7.

After all a company should be forced to spend money maintaining support for the vocal minority ad infinitum should it not?

For imported games it works mostly this way: you buy them uncensored in the UK for example and can activate them in Germany without being censored. You buy the same title directly in Germany and you can only activate the censored game. No way you can ever get the "real" game this way.
Steam could even enforce a ban of game later if it is banned in Germany in the future. Did not happen yet, still the possibility remains.

I'm not much up on German law so feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding anything here but what you appear to be saying is that a game that was banned/censored in Germany that you've bought a copy of, in say France, and shipped over will work on your PC but you'll be owning it illegally.

But Steam won't sell you a game that's illegal or uncensored and so you're complaint is that in the event of a game being censored/banned and therefore becoming illegal to own Steam is able to enforce this in accordance with the local German laws which Steam is obliged to comply with as a trader.

So essentially then you're objecting to Steam being able to prevent you from breaking the law?

[quase]

Apart from your misinterpretation of the German youth protection, I have to say that I can not tolerate any "law protection" from anybody because I think it is violating my personal freedom.
I give you a nice example of what I mean. If I feel like driving 150 km/h on the Autobahn, while there is only 130 km/h allowed, I have to live with the consequences if the police stops me. I would not tolerate though if a computer in my car would automatically lock the speed at 130 km/h just because it is said in the law. Another one, if I feel like crossing the road while there are red lights, I have again to live with the consequences. Still if there is no car coming across, I will not wait until the light goes green so I can cross the street. If it was a "Steam-light", there would be a automatic door that would stop me from crossing the street while the light was red.

Back to the censoring. There are two different lists for "youth endangering contents". List A that simply forbids to advertise and sell titles to people below the legal age of 18. The content is still legal to be bought and owned by any person over 18. There is a second list B that bans titles and it is forbidden to buy, own or publish these titles. Banning is the very last thing, usually it is for inhuman content or showing, maybe even glorifying, national-socialistic content from the Third Reich. The Airport scene from Modern Warfare 2 for example, where you could massacre innocent civilians, was a reason to ban this version of the game and only allow the censored version where you could not kill civilians.

Steam could sell anything form the list A of games if they would support age verification. Instead of doing this they simply censor the content or make it unavailable for German customers. This paternalism through Steam simply makes me sick. The possibility for the publisher/developer to control content at any given time through Steam is and stays fundamentally wrong!

[Gregorovitch]

But Steam won't sell you a game that's illegal or uncensored and so you're complaint is that in the event of a game being censored/banned and therefore becoming illegal to own Steam is able to enforce this in accordance with the local laws which Steam is obliged to comply with as a trader.

So essentially then you're objecting to Steam being able to prevent you from breaking the law?

That is one of my objections.

You are corrent that Steam should observe the law in the coutries it operates in in so far as the products it sells there. I have no problem with that. The problem arises where a product is *only* available via Steam because a side effect is that compliance becomes de facto enforcement on its customers. IMO:

1. No commercial organaization should have any role whatever in law enforcement (as opposed to compliance) unless it is under direct contract as an agent of the government to do so in which case the matter can be sorted out with the government itself through the political process and is subject to constitutional arrangements and controls, freedom of information legislation etc.

2. No government should be allowed to get away with outsourcing law enforcement activities informally to a commercial organisation since by doing so it can circumvent political accountability and achieve objectives by the back door through means that would be politically unacceptable if it did so openly.

In short law enforcement agencies and activities must be politically accountable and in a situation where Steam has exclusive rights to distribute a product this principle is violated.

Edit:

quase wrote: "Steam could sell anything form the list A of games if they would support age verification. Instead of doing this they simply censor the content or make it unavailable for German customers"

That is an excellent example of why this principle is so important. Steam can get away with this becasue it is not politically accountable, and the German government can wash its hands of it saying its nothing to do with us, its a commercial decision. quase has no redress and no way to circumvent the problem.

[fairywhipper]

Not sure about the rest of the world but in Canada uncapped data plans are going to be a thing of the past in not to distant future.
Not surprising really.Bell sells 10 gig of 3g+ for 70 dollars a month,15 dollars a gig if your go over.No wonder they and the others are looking at there hardwired plans and thinking they are giving the data away.

Not a Steam issue. Perhaps more something that should be taken up with your greedy service providers?

For imported games it works mostly this way: you buy them uncensored in the UK for example and can activate them in Germany without being censored. You buy the same title directly in Germany and you can only activate the censored game. No way you can ever get the "real" game this way.
Steam could even enforce a ban of game later if it is banned in Germany in the future. Did not happen yet, still the possibility remains.

I'm not much up on German law so feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding anything here but what you appear to be saying is that a game that was banned/censored in Germany that you've bought a copy of, in say France, and shipped over will work on your PC but you'll be owning it illegally.

But Steam won't sell you a game that's illegal or uncensored and so you're complaint is that in the event of a game being censored/banned and therefore becoming illegal to own Steam is able to enforce this in accordance with the local German laws which Steam is obliged to comply with as a trader.

So essentially then you're objecting to Steam being able to prevent you from breaking the law?

How interesting.
Greedy service providers? hmm have you seen how much steam uses last year?
780 Petabytes of data
Thats a big drop in the ocean even for internet which makes it more interesting when you consider this is mostly game downloads, dont know about you steam lovers, but i have an internet cap, and overusage incurs £0.10 per meg.

uncensored from steam, not likely, what do you think about regional locking for games, even if its cheaper somewhere else, because they want you to pay the mark up, and steam just enforces it.


pahhhh
too much effort with you steam lovers,
i got steam
i cant play any of my games on steam because of internet issues
i have tried it
i dont want it.
get it through your unlimited fast internet, i dont have it.
right
im going back to my cave and play games without the internet burden and steam, wake me if ever (prob never) that rebirth comes out without steam else i will find something better to do like knitting, because steam is not attached to my knitting needles and i dont need a third party to tell me i can knit.

[the-danzorz]

But Steam won't sell you a game that's illegal or uncensored and so you're complaint is that in the event of a game being censored/banned and therefore becoming illegal to own Steam is able to enforce this in accordance with the local laws which Steam is obliged to comply with as a trader.

So essentially then you're objecting to Steam being able to prevent you from breaking the law?

That is one of my objections.

You are corrent that Steam should observe the law in the coutries it operates in in so far as the products it sells there. I have no problem with that. The problem arises where a product is *only* available via Steam because a side effect is that compliance becomes de facto enforcement on its customers. IMO:

1. No commercial organaization should have any role whatever in law enforcement (as opposed to compliance) unless it is under direct contract as an agent of the government to do so in which case the matter can be sorted out with the government itself through the political process and is subject to constitutional arrangements and controls, freedom of information legislation etc.

2. No government should be allowed to get away with outsourcing law enforcement activities informally to a commercial organisation since by doing so it can circumvent political accountability and achieve objectives by the back door through means that would be politically unacceptable if it did so openly.

In short law enforcement agencies and activities must be politically accountable and in a situation where Steam has exclusive rights to distribute a product this principle is violated.

It's funny how you now think steam is a law enforcement, DRM (Data Rights Management) is the only thing that steam does and it doesn't even do it that well.

Steam cannot ban your account for being a drug dealer, rapist or a murder etc. Only if you break the terms of service of steam and or the game. This is no different then any other form of DRM which can and sometimes does lock the game from access or even crashes a PC at times.

DRM is perfectly legal and falls under the Copyright Law to protect develoer rights and interests.

If a game or content is banned or restricted in a country then steam is required to abide that law in there services. By making it restricted in that area. This is no different then privacy polices within companies and services. Companys must request an NDA to workers who have access to personal client information to ensure the law is not broken. Or that cannot legally work or operate within that country. there is a difference between abide (do as the law says) or enforce (ensure that the law is being maintained and issuing legal penalties if the law is broken). Steam cannot arrest you for owning a restricted game but only ban your steam account for breaking the terms of service. If they want you to be arrested for breaking any sort of law then they have to call law enforcement which they do. As a result they are not law enforcement and law does state companys must abide by a code of conduct with relation to laws and steam is only abiding by that.

[Vitez]

too much effort with you steam lovers,

Somewhere in the 100+ pages, the dialogue (searching for "truth" from two or more sides) about Steam turned into a parley (every side defending their own "truth"), whilst rational thoughts turned into rationalizing thoughts. 100+ pages of a debate which lost its meaning.


It's kind of funny
Sorry if I sounded like a smartass, but this wanted to come out

[exogenesis]

I think a discussion on a forum somehow automatically polarises the participants,
much more so than a face to face conversation.

There's just more time to mull over the implications of any post
& assume the worst meaning from your point of view.

Things seem to get taken out of context, since there's no visual cues to verify humour/malice/seriousness.

It would help if steam hater/lover wasn't used as an immediate pigeon-hole for any post,
or as descriptive terms.

Personally I don't want steam, but joy to those that do.

[Gregorovitch]

If a game or content is banned or restricted in a country then steam is required to abide that law in there services. By making it restricted in that area. This is no different then privacy polices within companies and services. Companys must request an NDA to workers who have access to personal client information to ensure the law is not broken.

There is a huge difference between complying with a restriction by not selling a particular game or version of a game in a country and enforcing that restriction by means of policing software that must be installed on the customers own machine.

Your example of compliance with data protection legislation is fundamentally differrent. A company's compliance with the legislation is enforced by government agencies that are politically accountable. Its employees are subject to a contract of employment that will stipulate their responsibilites under data protection legislation and other matters. The contract of employment itself will be subject to employment legislation which again will be enforced by government agencies that are politically accountable, and both employer and employee will have access to legal redress via courts/tribunals in the case of dispute.

In the case of DRM we have a situation where commercial organisations are being allowed by governments by default to implement enforcement regimes themselves in circumstances where there are no clear rules on how they go about it, no political accountability for their actions, and no redress available to the clitizen.

[the-danzorz]

If a game or content is banned or restricted in a country then steam is required to abide that law in there services. By making it restricted in that area. This is no different then privacy polices within companies and services. Companys must request an NDA to workers who have access to personal client information to ensure the law is not broken.

There is a huge difference between complying with a restriction by not selling a particular game or version of a game in a country and enforcing that restriction by means of policing software that must be installed on the customers own machine.

Your example of compliance with data protection legislation is fundamentally differrent. A company's compliance with the legislation is enforced by government agencies that are politically accountable. Its employees are subject to a contract of employment that will stipulate their responsibilites under data protection legislation and other matters. The contract of employment itself will be subject to employment legislation which again will be enforced by government agencies that are politically accountable, and both employer and employee will have access to legal redress via courts/tribunals in the case of dispute.

In the case of DRM we have a situation where commercial organisations are being allowed by governments by default to implement enforcement regimes themselves in circumstances where there are no clear rules on how they go about it, no political accountability for their actions, and no redress available to the clitizen.

So you're against DRM is general? then this is the wrong thread for you as DRM has been with all X-Games i've bought. X2,X3,X3TC,X3AP etc.

Steam is no different then the DRM provided before by egosoft in their game, apart from is costs less and provides more benefits then downsides. Steam and Egosoft will be under a signed agreement regarding the handling of the game and the content to ensure the protection of users, egosoft and steamworks. I've had the chance to work for a Game Developer in the past who has released a game on steam and i've seen part of the agreement at hand and what it entails (This does vary a lot between companies however, so if you think that the agreement will put your rights or access in harm then thats a lack of trust with egosoft as well).

Steam does not interrupt with the game in anyway depending on what is being called on the agreement, if it runs on the steam engine then a lot of anti-hack / cheat and scans are in place to ensure the safe keeping of users against hacks and piracy etc. In cases of a stand alone game being available through steam, then the game exe is only loaded by steam once it has validated that the game is legally enabled on the active steam account. Steam unless instructed otherwise can't and wont do anything else in the background regarding that game. Especially if it is a single player game.

If you lose internet access you won't lose access to the game in anyway, unless it is a multilayer game. You can run steam without access to the internet as long as an update won't in progress when you last shut steam down. Unless it is an online game.

If your steam account gets banned for what ever reason, you can submit a claim to get it back and if it was done unjustifiably without reason then you can persus legal action because your consumer rights (which depends on country).

It seems you are looking at this in a very strange way, without prior investigation.

In-house management of their games is perfectly fine, its no real shock that companies are forced to do this because of the way piracy is. We the consumers are to be blame for this. Content Providers and Developers have the right to protect their property by the use of steam and other drm software. If you were a developer (which you clearly are not) you would understand were they are coming from and it really doesn't impose any real inconvenience to the user.

Install Game (normal, has been with all games, unless standalone)
Activate Game (has been with mostly all X-Games)
Play Game (win win)

If you want then just disable steam from checking for updates, display news and updates and if you want simply block it. Then you won't have steam ever accessing the valve server for anything at all.

Edit;

Short explanation, Steam and Developers cannot in anyway shape or form, allow you to purchase their software. Then ban you for what ever little reason for you to lose access to the software without just case. There is a number for Human, Consumer, Bussiness rights and law that will protect you. They DO NOT have free will to do ANYTHING they want.

When you purchase a game you purchase the right to play it, not own it. There is a lot of copyrighted material that goes into games. Music, Art, Code, Game Engines etc. You don't suddenly own all of that when you buy the game. You only buy the right to have access to, use and in this case modify a certain amount of the game.

Steam is purely for egosoft a distributer of their game, a publisher. that also happens to ensure that active steam accounts are enabled to play the game which handles the piracy issue also. As long as you don't break any terms of service then you are fine.

[Zippo342]

Now I say it again, I do not need a digital babysitter or somebody with overly anticipatory obedience because they are not willing to use an age verification or similar identification system. In a real store I may have to show my identity card when I buy a 18+ title, but that's it. No big hassle or even further censorship, except when the game is "content controlled" by Steam for example.

Ok, I'll ask you this: How can you have verifyable age verification over the internet? This is where they cannot see you on your end of the computer. Do you want them to require web cam use so they can see who you are? Remember, you could just lie and say your birth date is 30 years ago. How will Steam know? Perhaps some "Parental Controls?" Remember that a kid can just create a new Steam account without them. That and it'd annoy many "of age" users.

On the internet there is no "Identity Card." There is no easy way to tell person A is underaged, and person B is of age and telling the truth. The best way to deal with this situation legally and not get knocked down for selling restricted games to a minor is to censor them so they can't get in trouble.

Seriously you're telling us that Steam should open itself to litegations on the grounds of "We aren't going to lie to Steam." I can full well see why Steam will not do that.

[quase]

On the internet there is no "Identity Card." There is no easy way to tell person A is underaged, and person B is of age and telling the truth. The best way to deal with this situation legally and not get knocked down for selling restricted games to a minor is to censor them so they can't get in trouble.

I am asking for using legal identification methods over the net that is already used by various companies from different branches: PostIdent for example.
http://www.deutschepost.de

Are you implying I should instead of getting what is advertised and what I pay for, get something different, a cut or censored game, just because I happen to live in a country with strict youth protection laws? I should be happy that the publishers are making games available at all in my country. Oooh I am so glad, thank you publisher, thank you Steam. How could I ever doubt in thy wisdom.

[Slashman]

Are you implying I should instead of getting what is advertised and what I pay for, get something different, a cut or censored game, just because I happen to live in a country with strict youth protection laws? I should be happy that the publishers are making games available at all in my country. Oooh I am so glad, thank you publisher, thank you Steam. How could I ever doubt in thy wisdom.

Shouldn't you be taking that up with the government in your country? Instead you're blaming a third party for not wanting to get into any legal distress over a law that the people in your country should change if they think its unjust.

Software companies don't WANT to sell watered down versions of games. You're nuts if you think that's the case. But they also don't want to go through pointless legal rigmarole when they don't have a say in what laws a country passes.

The same holds true for any company doing business. When you want to sell something in a territory you're not based in, you have to follow the rules of that place. And even if you can, somehow, circumvent those rules, there's no point in doing it if its more trouble than it is worth financially.

This way...you can at least get the game(watered down or not). You want things to change, change your government. That's what democracies are for. Stop blaming a company that's just trying to do business and avoid legal trouble. That's just plain irrational.

[quase]

In fact I think that the youth protection laws in Germany are very reasonable and justified for most of their age ratings. Why would I want the government to change this?

Thing is there are possibilities for a distributor to verify the legal age. I would buy a boxed game from Amazon and rather not activate a game through Steam, but as long as Steam is forced I can not be sure if the game will not be "censored" by their online account control.

[the-danzorz]

In fact I think that the youth protection laws in Germany are very reasonable and justified for most of their age ratings. Why would I want the government to change this?

Thing is there are possibilities for a distributor to verify the legal age. I would buy a boxed game from Amazon and rather not activate a game through Steam, but as long as Steam is forced I can not be sure if the game will not be "censored" by their online account control.

The only way to 100% ensure the legal age of Germany, is to require more personal identifiable information and provide and have it verified online. This would have to be done to all users to ensure no one from Germany can get around it. which is very very easy. But you can still get your parents to purchase the game for you and so as a result it can still easily be counted. In the end with online distribution and age verification it becomes a hassle and still easy to get around.

In the end steam will be pooring money and effort into services that cannot truly guarantee the true verification of someones age. As well then adding an additional "pointless" hassle for everyone else.

There is no system currently in place for a secure identification online, such as run by the goverment (which will be required) to then be easily added into services like steam. Germany should introduce online identification in order to secure age restricted services and content. It is not up too steam to do so. (this needs to be government regulated and enforced for services operating in Germany, such as steam). It is a security risk to use additional company services to verify someones identity.

[quase]

Postident is a personal identification method that is legal and fully accepted by the German government. Steam could use, but does not ...

Anyway, I did not want to derail this thread into a debate on censorship because I highly doubt that X Rebirth would have a problem with the content.
My point was to show an example how content control systems like Steam are taking away freedom from the consumer. If a game is not bound to an account activation system with DRM in the first place, there would be no way for anybody to control the content. The problem is and stays Steam (and other platforms that operate in the same way).

[the-danzorz]

If enough German users request it, it will be probably be added. That is how PayPal was added to steam. So many people wanted an easier and faster way of paying without risk. But Germany could also request it of steam and make it mandatory.

But i agree, the only thing in X-Games are big explosions and are usually 13+ or lower i think.

But the thing also is, steam will need to suit the laws of every single government it operates in, depending on the law it could require a lot of work. in the end it could just be easier and better for everyone that the system stays the way it is.

[quase]

In the end it could just be easier and better for everyone that the system stays the way it is.

... or it would be best for the publisher/developer to just offer a Steam-free version of your game as well.