It's a Shame And Shameful

[Arbalest]

This is gonna be a long answer...

THE MENU SYSTEM
It’s truly terrible, and becomes ridiculous when your actually docked, for many, many reasons. I’ll be more specific if anyone finds this view strange.

What's the problem with the menu system? I didn't notice much of a difference than in X2, despite the fact that the most common menu functions were transfered down with and icon identification system.

I didn't play any prior X-games, but I have to say this X3 menu system doesn't seem very polished. It has an ad-hoc, "octopus growth as we add new features" feel to it. Or maybe the problem is that they're building on a legacy menu system?

For example, why are there two different menu systems... two different ways to access the same command, depending on whether you're in space, or docked at a station? Why does "r" pull up my property menu in space, but not in the station? Stuff like that. Or the way you can't do what should be something very logical, like send a nav command while looking at the Sector map. Why do I have to back up through multiple levels to reach nav or trade commands, then drill back down to the same sector map and station list I was looking at before, when sending the command?

Anyway, I hope that's taken as constructive criticism aimed at improving future games. I'm still reserving judgement on the full game, since I don't have a lot of time with it yet, and there are some things I'm enjoying so far. But that menu system... ugh.

I think the HUD stinks too, but I'm learning to live with it. The big problems there, are the lack of a change in target reticle size or shape when a target flies offscreen (too easy to get lost in the crowded icons at the edge), the itsy-bitsy dots indicating shield/hull strength, and the slow response when ID'ing targets. It's also weird that I can select and lock an enemy ship at long range from the Sector map, but I can't select and lock (or "target nearest enemy") the same ship from the main HUD view until it flies into ridiculously close range.

[Chips]

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like the mods and developers are really listening anymore.

I think you'll find they are, they just don't offer up comment. The rest of this is simple assumption or presumption, okay - both.

Who can blame them when history has taught them why - they not only commented, but explained in the cockpit threads several times. I think they gave up in that thread because, as they themselves said, people either ignore what they said, or twisted their words for alterior meanings.

Yeah, they let people rant away here without interferring - would them making a comment really help this thread? Course not, they would be interrogated by everyone instead. Whilst people are worked up, upset etc - they aren't their most lucid or constructive at all - objective (not "arguementative" objective...) posts are more useful I imagine, and it is sometimes a struggle to read those on here... usually it is the "fan boys" whom post them!

Some parts of the forum feel more like a lynch mob though , and don't forget - maybe they could comment in this thread, but it sets a precident that they must then make a comment towards everyone whom asks a question on the forum. After all, your questions/objections/post/rants are no more important than any other member...

[TRiPWiRE]

Well I'm a fan girl too.

Personally I have absolutely no complaints about X3 so far. I've spent the last two weeks playing it and I think its a big step up from X2.

I'm happy with the planets in each sector. The amount of atmosphere they add to the game is immense. I would quickly tire of sectors filled with ships & stations only.

The lack of cockpits etc doesn't bother me either. Granted the graphics are impressive but its the gameplay that hooks me. The fact that I'm completely in control of how I go about my business is the reason I bought this. Not because all of its 250 ships have individual cockpits or because it now has a new menu system (which incidently I am happy with too). Thats all fluff and things I'm sure will be added later.

To those jumping up & down about X3 being released too early I disagree too. As I said - I've spent the last two weeks playing a stable & very pretty game. If further features are added in future patches then fine but I'm CURRENTLY enjoying this game and not looking at a pre-release list on some gamestore's site stating X3's release date to be sometime in the future or T.B.A.

Oh yeah - I'm yet to see a crash or glitch of ANY sort either.

Thanks Egosoft. I really enjoyed X2 & have been playing it up until X3's release. Now it appears that X3 will take up all of my spare time!

[Rex^Luporum]

This is gonna be a long answer...

THE MENU SYSTEM
It’s truly terrible, and becomes ridiculous when your actually docked, for many, many reasons. I’ll be more specific if anyone finds this view strange.

What's the problem with the menu system? I didn't notice much of a difference than in X2, despite the fact that the most common menu functions were transfered down with and icon identification system.

I didn't play any prior X-games, but I have to say this X3 menu system doesn't seem very polished. It has an ad-hoc, "octopus growth as we add new features" feel to it. Or maybe the problem is that they're building on a legacy menu system?

For example, why are there two different menu systems... two different ways to access the same command, depending on whether you're in space, or docked at a station? Why does "r" pull up my property menu in space, but not in the station? Stuff like that. Or the way you can't do what should be something very logical, like send a nav command while looking at the Sector map. Why do I have to back up through multiple levels to reach nav or trade commands, then drill back down to the same sector map and station list I was looking at before, when sending the command?

Anyway, I hope that's taken as constructive criticism aimed at improving future games. I'm still reserving judgement on the full game, since I don't have a lot of time with it yet, and there are some things I'm enjoying so far. But that menu system... ugh.

I think the HUD stinks too, but I'm learning to live with it. The big problems there, are the lack of a change in target reticle size or shape when a target flies offscreen (too easy to get lost in the crowded icons at the edge), the itsy-bitsy dots indicating shield/hull strength, and the slow response when ID'ing targets. It's also weird that I can select and lock an enemy ship at long range from the Sector map, but I can't select and lock (or "target nearest enemy") the same ship from the main HUD view until it flies into ridiculously close range.

I dunno I actually like the layout of everything... for the menu systems I tend to use a keyboard shortcut to bring up the menu i want and then use my POV hat on my joystick/fire button to browse the menu... i find it pretty fast and easy to use that way.

I also think the HUD gets the job done, however that radar is useless when it comes to telling your 3d position to other objects and distance to them... and eliptic upgrade is a joke lol, doesnt do anything to help orientation.

[Umpa Lumpa]

Gald to see everyones getting along so well

As for X3. Well, its a mixed bag but id say the bad outweighs the good. So in no particular order here we go (quite long)......(infact really long)

Combat. Its true that speed does make all the difference. If the enemy is haster he will simply fly out of your range, turn round, fly directly towards you firing all guns and then fly off in the other direction rinse and repeat. The best 'tactic' ive found is to sit still in the middle and kill him as he flies towards you - hmm very realistic

Capturing. No differnce for X2 but i do like the getting out and capturing thing.

Menu. No real complaints here. Yes its complitcatd but with so many options it cant get any simpler. My only complaint is you cant target things in menus anymore meaning you have to come out and go in again.

Living Universe. Not good. Theres been little to no improvement since X2 some of the things we were told would be in arn't. The civillian ships are nice but pointless, the military ships do help traders but no more than X2 and the police are just the same. Some people are saying that just seeing AI traders count as living, sadly my game dosent even have them now because on the AI spawning glitch (not getting it now? dont worry, you will.)

Graphics. Very good, the biggest improvment if your computer can handle it. To many stars but apart from that

Ships. Mixed. I like the new designs on the whole but the similarities between some are not good. Trade ships still have the same basic design through all races and the M6 similaritis are just silly. However the fighters look great and i like the differences between the same ships eg Police ships look different to civ ships.

Stations. Outside docking is better and more realistic but why did the docking ports have to be put so close together. Dock 2 TPs next to each other and if you get out alive consider yourself lucky. Also, their all the same again apart from a few. Looking and the boron trading station make my heart ache at what could have been.

Egosoft/Patches and Lying. This is my biggest gripe. Why dosent egosoft tell us the problems or missing feature in the game. Why didnt they tell us mobile mining was missing, that cockpits wernt in, that player headquarters didnt make it. Did they think we wouldnt find out. Not telling us and making us discover it for ourselves just made it worse. I understand that in time some of this stuff will be fixed in patches but dont put to much faith in them, all the problems cant be fixed in 1.3 and itll be a while before 1.4. I know the standard argument is that x2 was like that but thats not much of a defece and besides, i played x2 v1.0 for ages just fine. Then theres the terribly inaccurate manual. That was just uncalled for, a patch isnt going to fix that.

Having said all that im still playing it so it cant be all bad. If you read all this congratulations. It felt good to get it all out.

[Trips]

Just for the record, I like space sims, I like the X Universe, and have always been impressed with the level of support egosoft put into their games, and the general level and consistency of the mods here. (it’s true). And would gladly list what I think has really improved, as it's not all negative, but in all honesty it would be a short list.

I also have a tendency of trying to be objective and acknowledging (if not always agreeing with) others take on things. On that count, I was clearly wrong about the planet overhead. BUT, X3 is no where near finished, X2 was just as bad on release, except that time it was the States who got it first, that might explain why some see this “constant” bashing as weird, as it was pretty stable by the time we (UK) got it. I’m not overly bothered about the bugs or stability problems as they will almost certainly be addressed in the patches.

But releasing it in that state was the wrong thing to do, but due to the loyalty of the fans (and lack of competition), it at least looks like, Ego have once again figured it was a gamble worth taking. I also find it hard to understand why a company like egosoft with it's track record and rep was FORCED to release early, a delay of ONE week would have prevented so many complaints/problems for the customers.

The list of problems/gripes/raves and bugs will vary from person to person, and we all have an idea what we would want to see in the game (and of course will never get), but there are general themes that run through most. Even those who truly love this game, where probably hoping for a more vibrant, interactive and real universe this time (if they’re going to be honest), but Ego have made precious little moves in that direction, and when you cut right down to it, for me, at least, that’s what really disappoints the most.

And the only way I/you/we can express things like this, good or bad, is to come here and say so. As for the “Trolls” on both sides of the argument who don’t engage their brains before typing, troll away, your in the minority, this board is established and mature enough to wipe you of its shoe (metaphorically speaking). Lol.



[Edit]
One other thing, REMEMBER, this is X3 and the fourth incarnation of this game, and (putting graphics and some changes that basically add up to little more than tinkering) the game has not really moved on if you look back, with every release people mention things like potential. Yep, can’t argue with that it the slightest, and some complaints would seem realy daft if this was a new release of a new game. But it’s not. I’m regrettably now starting to think that future developments of the game are going to be based on expanding the number of platforms rather than expanding content further.

It's egosofts game, they, of course, can focus it any way they want, but for me X3 is one step too many down the same path. Basicallly the evolution of this game has slowed to a crawl between releases.

[Norse Player]

It's egosofts game, they, of course, can focus it any way they want, but for me X3 is one step too many down the same path. Basicallly the evolution of this game has slowed to a crawl between releases.

They simply need more people working with them on future games. IE, Valve has how many people working for them?? And what about other software-houses??? The reason the game(s) are/were 'patchy' is that Egosoft is 'walking uphill' compared with the other companies.

How many patches would we see if Egosoft had 6 programmers dedicated to AI-flightpaths, 2 to graphics, 4 for mission-design, 2 for sound, 4 for cutscenes and 6 programmers to couple all the stuff together? I think they would have made X3 perfect from the start, but then, where's the need for the graphics-,sound-/music-,flightpath-programmers after they've released the game? If they were to use their skills on producing content, I think lots of people would be more than happy to buy releases than getting it for free as it is done right now.

Other companies would fire those working on graphics as soon as they would finish their work. Egosoft seems to try to balance things.

As for me, X3 is a far better product; graphics is breathtaking, sound/music is great (have you been to Getsu Fune?), they have an interesting plotline (though only one at the moment, maybe side-missions in future patches will be released?) and they've done an enormous job by being half a dozen persons. Add some manpower and you wouldn't complain. Or better yet, join up as a beta-tester for their next release. Make sure that any bug you find isn't going to annoy the players... I see this more as a cooperation between us customers and them the developers at Egosoft. Sometimes you've got to put something in to get something out, IE the planet design contest, which resulted it being implemented in the game!! MY .02€ worth... And I don't work for Egosoft, though I wish I had one million Euro so I could buy up part of the company, as I think it has a great future ahead.

Norse Player

[Trips]

Not going to go into what's involved in beta testing, etc.

As for bugs, like I said, not overly bothered about them, as they will get fixed, though the amount (based on their now extensive expereince) is pretty big. It’s the repeating of certain mistakes and the lack of progress (in my view) that’s disappointing. This is the 4th version afterall.

As for manpower, It probably would help, I've no idea what the sales/profits egosoft make on the X series, so can't really comment on their approach on this. But spending more time on new content rather than fixing bits that didn't really need it would have helped.

Don't get me wrong, like probably everyone who posts here (good and bad) I'm a fan, just a bit jaded that's all.



Lets put it this way, you like the new graphics, etc, they are good.

But would you have accepted little or no improvement over the already great graphics of X2 for say, NPC’s being direct competitors and reacting to you by building their own empire, or Races that go after you after attacking their shipping, etc, the potential is huge.

These are big changes, granted, but if the time was spent on that, rather than improving the graphics or economy model, then they would have a new game which is more like what is advertised, and they would be meeting some of that potential, rather than us constantly hoping that one day it might.

As I keep saying it's the FOURTH version, and only has really very minor improvements over the previous.

[Gasaraki88]

Im very interested in what machines you guys are running X3 on. I have a A64 3700 1GB and a 6800 GT. Ive been running it with 2xAA and 16xAF with barely any slow down. Maybe its time you guys upgraded? I mean my machine is fast but its way off from being top of the line these days.

Wow, perhaps you can give me some money so I can have a computer just like yours to play X3. I have a 3.0ghz, 6800ULtra, 1 gb ram, etc computer and I expect the game to run better than it does right now. I don't want to spend $3000 to be able to play X3 smoothly. No wonder why people are leaving PC games and buying consoles.

[Xiucoatzin]

I agree that the game does seem to have some problems....


But as others have said, that is typical of new games. I have, in fact, played games out of the box that had worse problems (Starfleet Command III anyone?)

Now....a couple of things I would like to say in defense of the game though -- the devs do seem committed to fixing things. Two patches since release -- that says something all by itself...and with another major patch due any day now. Secondly...I seem to remember reading somewhere that even with X2, when it was released there were a lot of problems as well, and a lot of the content (such as mining, etc) was actually patched in later. That is a clear indicator for this game as well. Is content missing? Yes, perhaps. Does the economy need tweaked? Yep. On and on...but if the devs follow past patterns, this will all be fixed in time.

Just my .02 cents. I am going to give the game a chance. It is, in fact, the only real game of its type on the market today that is worth playing.

My only real complaint, and it is not a complaint..more of a wish than anything else, is that I wish that there was a multiplayer form of this game...perhaps even an MMO. I played Eve for a very long time...got bored with it eventually because it went into a grind, and I just lost interest...but I think that a MMO based on the X-Universe would have some potential. Unfortunately, I am not sure if it could work out though. Too many elements, and the whole "balance" and PvP elements would be a nightmare.

[Atkara]

For example, why are there two different menu systems... two different ways to access the same command, depending on whether you're in space, or docked at a station? Why does "r" pull up my property menu in space, but not in the station? Stuff like that. Or the way you can't do what should be something very logical, like send a nav command while looking at the Sector map. Why do I have to back up through multiple levels to reach nav or trade commands, then drill back down to the same sector map and station list I was looking at before, when sending the command?

I think the HUD stinks too, but I'm learning to live with it.The big problems there, are the lack of a change in target reticle size or shape when a target flies offscreen (too easy to get lost in the crowded icons at the edge), the itsy-bitsy dots indicating shield/hull strength, and the slow response when ID'ing targets. It's also weird that I can select and lock an enemy ship at long range from the Sector map, but I can't select and lock (or "target nearest enemy") the same ship from the main HUD view until it flies into ridiculously close range.

Well, the whole idea of different menu systems must've been based on the fact that not all ppl own any gaming controller, and some don't plan to buy any at all. So they implemented a keyboard/mouse menu system so that anyone would be able to control the game almost exclusively with a common mouse.

Certainly, the original system wouldn't be just wiped out, it would still be here, to keep all of us simmers happy, and the allready established community of vets or near-vets that was allready used and fond of the original menu system. Which one to use, it's left up to you

As for the HUD, I can't say I'm getting lost in it. If I wanted an option added, that would be the option to have brackets turned on or off. They're part of the mouse visual targeting system though, since you can target anything by simply clicking on the bracket that encloses it.

About how the game identifies the nearest enemy, I'd say it's built around the concept: "Any enemy poses a direct threat, as long as he is in the crucial 5km radius". It's allways been this way. But I would rename the related key combination to "target nearest threat", in order to avoid such confusions.

[Gnavpot]

Or the way you can't do what should be something very logical, like send a nav command while looking at the Sector map.

Why do I have to back up through multiple levels to reach nav or trade commands, then drill back down to the same sector map and station list I was looking at before, when sending the command?

This is so spot on that I felt the urge to repeat it.

I had exactly the same complaint regarding X2, and it seems from your post that it has not been fixed, even though it should be very simple.

I would like to ask those people who say they like the menu system:
Do you actually prefer that you have to go through the unnecessary steps described by Arbalest?

And yes, before anyone asks "unnecessary?". They ARE unnecessary, compared to selecting a station in the sector map, open a list showing commands related to that station and selecting a command. The list could be something like:
1. Set route to this station
2. Dock to this station
3. Jump to nearest jump gate
4-6. Same as 1-3, but send as remote command to wingmen
7-9. Same as 1-3, but send as remote command to a ship from your ship list.

In general - not only talking games - a good interface will give you the opportunity of selecting a command and then selecting the target of the command (like X2 does) OR let you select the target and then selecting a command for the target (like X2 and apparently also X3 certainly does not).

[grumman]

Secondly...I seem to remember reading somewhere that even with X2, when it was released there were a lot of problems as well, and a lot of the content (such as mining, etc) was actually patched in later.

That is different. There was no mobile mining in X before X2: it was a completely new feature. With X3, we are missing features which Egosoft already had implemented in their previous games. A new game should build on the previous successes, there's no need to start again from scratch. If something like mobile mining functions perfectly in X2, what excuse is there for it to fail to function perfectly in X3, right from version 1.0?

[giskard]

But would you have accepted little or no improvement over the already great graphics of X2 for say, NPC’s being direct competitors and reacting to you by building their own empire, or Races that go after you after attacking their shipping, etc, the potential is huge.

These are big changes, granted, but if the time was spent on that, rather than improving the graphics or economy model, then they would have a new game which is more like what is advertised, and they would be meeting some of that potential, rather than us constantly hoping that one day it might.

Trips: I know your true fan or you would not have stuck around and put up with all the ealier abuse.

But i think your forgetting a few things.

Id Egosoft has not attempted to fix the economy, the majority of the X communities loudest players would have spoken out. Id have been right up there in the front row, pitch forks and all.

The economy is a major part of the X series and the X2 economy was to be perfectly honest a complete farse. Which is why Egosoft assigned a team to fix it and they did fix it. Without a good economy model, X would have been a poor mans wingcommander to me.

On the graphics front, like it not graphics are what shallow reviewers home in on. Good graphics usually means a high score. We all know its true and we are guilty of judging things that way.

For example, how many of you consider your dream date to be a 21 stone lassy ?

Personally doesnt even come in to for most people. Though it should be the single most important item in anybody interested in a relationship.

Gameplay is treated exactly the same way.

On the NPC front, im with you all the way on that score and X3 is idealy placed to take advantage of its own new features in that area.

Giskard

[Trips]

@ Giskard

Graphics v Game Play: What your saying is regrettable but true, and not just for X3. So much time and resources used up on something that could have at least skipped a release so they could focus on other things, after all the X2 graphics where pretty good as they where. It’s most likely a lost cause, like in many RTS/RPG releases these days, But if you don’t keep harping on about it then any chance (no matter how small) of it ever changing will be lost.

Economy Models: Yeeaaahhhhhh, I suppose so, but, I’m inclined not to be critical of it. As all I wanted was a half sensible way of getting cash, it was, and I was fine about it. Though I can see how it could have been irritating to those who find that aspect of the game a big appeal. And it might well be that divide in what your expecting from the game which causes this it’s great/it’s crap thing.

But. all in all, after saying that, it’s still the forth version of the game, and it’s still advertised as being interactive with real consequences to your actions and it’s (regrettably) still not. That’s the real bugger, if it was you wouldn’t see me on here complaining, even if it was full of bugs, as I trust ego to eventually fix them.



[Note]
By the way I “nicked” a copy of your Gropos fighter thingy for the B5 thing over the road, I couldn’t find you to ask about it, your in the credits though.

[MGA]

...and predictibly they came, in spades, personalising, flaming, and not even specific towards the game... followed by:

I agree with pixel here. I may not have x3 but then I'd rather wait for it to get better.

Who's not even played the game... ohh dear!

Right. You are saying what I said is irrevant? Let me put it this way. A game comes out with bugs, I wait for an update if there is one and just learn to live. In many cases I don't notice them as I'm trying to enjoy the game. If the game has to take a longer time to develop to rid the bugs, so be it. You sound like the kind who lambust and complain at developers for producing tosh when you rushed them in the first place.

[giskard]

But. all in all, after saying that, it’s still the forth version of the game, and it’s still advertised as being interactive with real consequences to your actions and it’s (regrettably) still not. That’s the real bugger, if it was you wouldn’t see me on here complaining, even if it was full of bugs, as I trust ego to eventually fix them.

Actually if you consider many features have had to be delayed due to the tight release date, you can understand why people would think that. But if you try and built up a little empire you will notice your effect on the local economy is much greater now.

Also little touches like scanning ships without first owning a police licience do already exist in the game.

So X3 is heading in that direction. Its very much a side of the game I would love to see developed as far as it will go. I think on this point we both agree totally.

The economy though is and always was a good 50% (perhaps highter) of what the X series is about. Combat was at first restricted to defending your assets. Only in X2 was it developed to the point where combat it self became a major part of the game and that was mainly because of the m6, m2 and m1 ships the player was allowed to use.

Now in X3, we see those fine tuned and put in their place. No longer the one stop combat ships they once where. Now they are part of fleet thats needed to do the same job a single ship in X2 would have done easily.

So 2 major game features have at long last started to work right without making anything else obselete like the m3 did for m4s and m5s in X2.

X3 is getting there, the big issues have been sorted. The stuff we both want to see now is relatively small issues that can be added via scripts.

So I think we will see them sooner or later in X3, those are not issues that X3 doesnt support already. Unlike X2 that didnt support half the major changes that where needed.

But keep pushing, only by bring this topic up does the message get sent. Nobody ever made their point by saying nothing around here

Giskard

[Trips]

I didn’t know that about the combat before X2, only started playing with that release. I’ll reserve the full wrath of my judgement Until 1.4 or so comes out and a few mods have been written.

Anyway, is what your saying, in the next release (X4), you’d now expect more work to be done to make the universe more alive, rather than pretty and financially sound, as that now pretty well "fixed". It would be good.

[The_Tigers_Eye]

...and predictibly they came, in spades, personalising, flaming, and not even specific towards the game... followed by:

I agree with pixel here. I may not have x3 but then I'd rather wait for it to get better.

Who's not even played the game... ohh dear!

Right. You are saying what I said is irrevant? Let me put it this way. A game comes out with bugs, I wait for an update if there is one and just learn to live. In many cases I don't notice them as I'm trying to enjoy the game. If the game has to take a longer time to develop to rid the bugs, so be it. You sound like the kind who lambust and complain at developers for producing tosh when you rushed them in the first place.

I don't understand your point? You are making no sense, you have not played the game, but your glad it was released unfinished? Cos thats what you are posting here, my point, and let me be very clear and specific:

The game was not finished, it was rushed, its a half arsed job missing features, half implemented features and just general sloppyness, I did not want X3 to be released in this state, I wanted it to be released in a semi-finished state, like it will probably be when patched up to version 1.6!

So, to calrify, I never wanted it to be rushed, I don't think you should pay full price for a rushed/unfinished game and to be honest, like many others now, if X4 was released next year, it can go blow out an airlock.... cos I ain't falling for the same tripe a 5th time *sigh*

Flame on

[Trips]

Actually I have to agree with TTE on that, you are being a bit critical of peoples views while not actually playing the game yourself.

In fact if I read you right, your standing back, letting others buy it, complain their heads off, resulting in patches and only then you’ll get it, while at the same time posting comments about those very people who do the complaining which result in the patches your waiting for.

Interesting way to do it I suppose. Is that not the definition of mythical beastie type thing.

[edit]
Which is a fair bit different from what CHAZZ has done in the next post. Just so you don't think I'm doing a lot of tarring with a big brush CHAZZ.