[MOD-TC]Ship Rebalance Mod:Continued v1.10b (27/6/11): Now Discontinued...

[paulwheeler]

All factories and wares will be relocated so they make more sense. I will definitely add the common upgrades into all races equipment docks.

[Osiris454]

For the XRM will the Hyperion return to it's former -Pre TC- glory? Being an M7 Hellbeast instead of an M6.

[NOValdemar]

About increasing the price for wares to balance their use - this runs into the "octopus explorer paradox" where a pretty useless ship with extremely expensive triplex scanners installed onboard sell for alot more than is justified (imho) when you take into account the ease at which you can acquire them.

I figure it would be impossible to lower the sale price for the triplex scanners installed on the octopus explorers by default but would it be possible to make the price of the octopus ship (without scanner) negative to counteract the 1 or so mill that the triplex contributes to the value of the ship on sale (In the same way that the Jobs scripts for SRM sometimes give negative values of fighter drones installed on ships in my game).

If possible I think making an octopus explorer ship be valued at -1,000,000 Cr would would maybe balance the game a bit more and make small M5s not a source of windfall capital for start out pirates...

(I havnt played the latest version of SRM so if this was fixed since then my appologies!)

[NOValdemar]

Another thing that has been bugging me is the whole distinction between TS and TS Super Freighters in X3tc. It seems to be a rather arbitrary and unrealistic solution. Now that TMs have been made to be XL, imho maybe the way TSs are used should be looked at...

Imagine you area the producer of space transports. I believe you like current day transporters would have two or possibly three distinct groups of clients. Client A would be operating in a heavy bulk transportation kinda like the current day train transporters, and massive container ships. They would value ware size and amount of storage and low cost of the shipping units per distance above shielding and defensive capabilities. Why?

a) large transport amounts per trip are necessary to make transport of bulk wares profitable as uniform goods (like iron or sugar) usually have low profit margins becuase of heavy competition. There are loads of Ore Mines in the Universe and as anyone who as spent time trading ECells will tell you need a big ship to make any real of money.
b) Defense would likely not be developed as much in big bulk transporters since they are fundamentally unattractive targets for pirates. Pirates have limited space for goods in their ships attack ships and would naturally look the the highest price per unit they can steal. Thus relative to ships that transport hightech wares the SFHs of the universe would have less shielding and less armament because they simply would be less attractive to attack even if they wandered deep into pirate space.

Thus it is confusing to me that the ships best suited for Massive Bulk transport (the TS SFHs of the world) are the best shielded where as the TS normal variants with smaller cargo bays and sizes is weakly shielded and has low armaments.

I believe that the Small TSs should be better shielded and better equipped to fill the second class of customers that a Space shipping agency would face, High tech good shipping. These clients would not need massive storage capacities simply because the factories of the X universe produce very small amounts of a particular missile or tech good that a trader would be working in. Instead they would value speed and security allowing them to quickly transverse pirate lanes. As to the size of wares I think they should have XL (especially if the military transport below is allowed)

But what about the current Military Transports which need to transport large numbers of bulky capital ship weapons? I say that it would only make sense for their to be third distinct variant of the TS which would take over the old position of the TM - Ie the ship builder would produce a militarized TS variant with XXL cargo size and greater cargo capacity than the smaller TSs but far smaller than the SFs. They should be slower than that quicker TSs there by making them more vulnerable to attack but this would be countered with increased shielding and weaponry along with more military escorts. They would effectively be the center of a military convoys or arms transports, simular to today's front line suppliers. Price could also be increased way beyond the other two categories making them distinct from the other groups.

Anyways thats my two cents on the x3tc SF situation.

Edited for spelling.

[Mizuchi]

But what about the current Military Transports which need to transport large numbers of bulky capital ship weapons?

That won't be an issue in XRM. I can't say why, but it won't.

Pirates have limited space for goods in their ships attack ships and would naturally look the the highest price per unit they can steal.

The problem there is that you have to balance logic with actual game mechanics. Pirate AI isn't that selective, and they don't really hijack ships in-game beyond thematic background material.

So really all you wind up doing is punishing Pirate players for playing Pirates by making it harder for them to play Pirates.

Given that pilot bailing isn't always a certainty without additional mods, that kind of ramps things up to the point where weaving around police patrols to get to your intented target(s) and loot isn't as much fun as it used to be.

Besides which, I can't say I agree with your logic on pirates being picky when it comes to looting.

In a thematic (non game-mechanic) sense, they don't really have the luxury of slinking up to transports and checking them out and casually sauntering away if they don't like what they see - they go in hard and fast (o mai) and get out again (O MAI!) and hopefully what they score is worth the effort.

At least that's my take on them. I thinking of how piracy worked in I-War II more here though, because that kind of piracy doesn't exist in-game in X3TC.

(And that was such an awesome space sim.)

[paulwheeler]

I tend to look at it like this...

The AI pirates will attack random transporters regardless of their size, specs or what they are carrying. So that kind of makes having transporters suited to different customers irrelevant in a gaming sense.

Then it comes down to much simpler mechanics. Superfreighters are much slower so have less chance of escape and they are also much more expensive and would likely have more expensive cargo. Therefore, it makes sense that they are the better shielded and defended.

There aren't really military transports in the game. The TM class is more a very light carrier than a freighter.


RE: The price of explorer M5s... I don't think the game can handle negative prices. So the only way to reduce the cost is to reduce the cost of a triplex scanner, which I dont want to do. To be honest, considering you are getting a ship that can reveal the entire universe in no time at all, I think the high price is reasonably justified.

[Osiris454]

OK I removed all mods and only installed the SRM. Here's what I got:

UPDATE RELEASED v1.10
-------------------------------

3. Removed missile turret from Nagoya. Replaced with new front turret with eight guns. It also gains more laser energy and cargo space.
4. Removed missile turret from Lofn.
5. Removed missile turret from Lotan.
6. Added missing weapons from Teladi front M6 TCockpits entry to remove missile compatibility from Osprey Sentinel.

3. Check. I see the turrets in TShips.
4. Check. Missiles removed.
5. No Check. Turret 7 still exists. 'Model/Scene' lists it as: ships\props\invisible_weapon. There are also 2 instances of SS_Cockpit_Default. One is empty while the other contains those entries.
6. No Check. 'SS_COCKPIT_T_FRONT_M6' is empty of compatible weapons.

I have absolutely no mods installed other than the SRM. No scripts either. I got these values directly from X3Editor2.

[NOValdemar]

The AI pirates will attack random transporters regardless of their size, specs or what they are carrying. So that kind of makes having transporters suited to different customers irrelevant in a gaming sense.

Then it comes down to much simpler mechanics. Superfreighters are much slower so have less chance of escape and they are also much more expensive and would likely have more expensive cargo. Therefore, it makes sense that they are the better shielded and defended.

There aren't really military transports in the game. The TM class is more a very light carrier than a freighter.

Yea that makes sense whit the current game mechanics. If you made the changes the random pirates would kill all SFs as they have no advantage.

All Im saying is that from an economic perspective its like putting guns and armed gaurds on Train Cars transporting wood plup. The TS owner really doesnt have a way to compete for profitability with a SF owner. First he cannot compete in volume transport per km compared to the SFs because of his small hold and he cannot transport more valuable commodities because of the lack of shielding (if the pirates didnt act randomly at least).

maybe in Rebirth the ai will be more realistic so that pirates where given a choice between freighters will go for ships that are fast (so they can get them out of there quickly) and whips which carry goods with a high price/unit ratio.

thanks anyways for a great mod! fully get why you shouldnt change this though with the ai being the way it is

[Sn4kemaster]

Hi Paul,

Can you please review the Terran fighter missile selection for both SRM and XRM......there appears to be a big hole due to 2 problems!

They don't have a decent anti-M3 missile....the closest they have is the Spectre, but its really an anti-m6/m7/m2 missile, good when your wing of Excalibur's is taking on a C, but in M3 vs M3 combat my Terran ships suffer more losses due to the spectre blowing up in their own face and taking themselves out, rather than due to the Xenon.

And the Poltergeist, it does very light damage and is really a anti-m4/m5 but it only goes 250m/s so it cant catch the victims its intended for..... in reality the speed needs to be in the 450-500m/s range.

So really the Terrans need a new missile, either a single 75k missile or a 10kx8 Swarm missile (probably better).....both in the 300 m/s range.

Dont know if this was on the radar.....but it is a glaring hole, and needs to be retro applied to the SRM if you agree.

If it came to it, i would rather the Spectre was simply turned into a quicker swarm missile like the example above.....thinking about it the commonwealth have so many missile's...simply taking 1 out to make room for another Terran....would it be a big thing?

[malanthor]

Why not work over the cap ships while your at it, people always complain abouth the slow speed of primarily destroyers, but its totally illogical that a vessel that size should move slow, just look at its engines. People tend to forget that things are weightless in space, so mass really dont matter that much, scientifically speaking the destroyer would move faster than a figther. Now that would be perhaps too strange, but 50..i mean come on.. they could atleast get like 100-150. Acceleration should still be slow and moving from side to side and rolling aswell just not its top speed. Anyway, good mod, i am playing it now. Keep it up!

[A5PECT]

The mod tries to avoid creating high speed/low acceleration scenarios. They're very cool in concept, but the AI is absolutely terrible at handling them, and the last thing we want is destroyer battles degenerating into two enormous starships slamming into each other until one of them explodes.

Although, I suppose if Paul's changes to sector layout are dramatic enough it may give destroyers a little room to bump up their max speed.

[paulwheeler]

You're right about weight not meaning much in space, but in reality mass absolutely does play a part... (Contrary to popular belief, weight and mass are not the same thing)

Acceleration = force / mass

There would be no maximum speed (except for the speed of light), but the larger the ship, the slower it would accelerate. Also inertia would play an important part (if you ignore the science fiction inertial dampeners). Too large a force from the engines and the ship would rip itself apart as well as kill all its occupants.


But all this is besides the point...

The game simply isn't geared up for fast capital ships. The AI collision detection is the same distance for all ships, so in order for a ship to avoid a collision it needs to be able to slow down in time. Its fine for fighters with high acceleration and high turning, but it wouldn't work with a capital ship.

Ideally I'd like to increase capital ship speeds but really pull back on their acceleration and turning, but I really don't think the AI would handle it and you would, as pointed out, end up with capital vs capital battles degenerating into a ramming competition.

So we have to compromise. If it helps, think of it like this - the X Universe has safety regulations and in order to minimise in-sector collisions, and to account for the fact that a large destroyer would take several sector lengths to slow down from, say fighter speeds, all races agreed to add speed limiters on their ships, dependant on its class and acceleration abilities. Argon adhere strictly to this policy, Teladi are extra safe and the Split don't give a damn. Or if you like, the gates (which are ancient after all...) generate a field which stops ships from travelling too fast and crashing into them.

I am going try a little but of tweaking to see if I can manipulate things a bit, but I am really not sure what I'll be able to do without messing up the AI.

[paulwheeler]

Hi Paul,

Can you please review the Terran fighter missile selection for both SRM and XRM......there appears to be a big hole due to 2 problems!

They don't have a decent anti-M3 missile....the closest they have is the Spectre, but its really an anti-m6/m7/m2 missile, good when your wing of Excalibur's is taking on a C, but in M3 vs M3 combat my Terran ships suffer more losses due to the spectre blowing up in their own face and taking themselves out, rather than due to the Xenon.

And the Poltergeist, it does very light damage and is really a anti-m4/m5 but it only goes 250m/s so it cant catch the victims its intended for..... in reality the speed needs to be in the 450-500m/s range.

So really the Terrans need a new missile, either a single 75k missile or a 10kx8 Swarm missile (probably better).....both in the 300 m/s range.

Dont know if this was on the radar.....but it is a glaring hole, and needs to be retro applied to the SRM if you agree.

If it came to it, i would rather the Spectre was simply turned into a quicker swarm missile like the example above.....thinking about it the commonwealth have so many missile's...simply taking 1 out to make room for another Terran....would it be a big thing?

I agree Terran's could do with a couple more missiles. I'll see what I can do.

BTW - have you tried the Missile Pack from the CMOD? It makes all missiles far more effective and faster (you'll need a turret script to counter it though - MDMk2 is perfect and simple).

[malanthor]

True enough, acceleration would still be bad, and i see the points abouth the game not working with it, and there do exist some reasons like some of those you mentioned paul, which makes slow cap speed viable. So no biggie.

[Sn4kemaster]

BTW - have you tried the Missile Pack from the CMOD? It makes all missiles far more effective and faster (you'll need a turret script to counter it though - MDMk2 is perfect and simple).

Its on my radar to try before the XRM comes out.....i would need to do a restart to install MDMk2...so im putting it off for a little while.

Have just tried to install Gazz's missile safety, thinking that would make the spectre situation better on my Excalibur wing, except to make it work on all your ships you need to download OOS, and for that to work you need to download MARS, which is something I DO NOT want...so that's buggered that idea up then.

[dienadel]

Aldran Adventurers would be stuck in Aldrin FOREVER forever forever...

FOREVER.

Making JD much much more greedy would be a very good solution to controlling ships OTT jump ranges.

I like this.

Me too. This is another way I hadn't thought of. It's actually pretty cool, the only thing is to check the cargo size of some M7s, which I suspect would be too small for their role. M6s I don't really care, the are not long range vessels anyway.

-----

Well one more thought on the matter.

I've never seen a JD on a NPC fighter, or I've never seen a NPC fighter jump (maybe in some plot mission, or was it X3:R even?). I'm almost sure I've never acquired a JD from a bailed fighter (and I have bailing scripts, we're talking hundreds of test cases here). I think it's safe to say that in vanilla there are no JDs on NPC fighters.

Basicly in vanilla only player owned fighters carry and use a JD. In other words, no fighter will ever have a JD, unless you install it.

So, if you don't like the idea of JDs on figthers, what does a modded games (with XL sized JDs) bring to you? Aesthetically, you see the ware red in the list at docks. Functionally, you can't buy or transfer them by mistake. That's it.

The great thing about the X series is that it supports many different playing styles, w/o imposing one. While I understand the rationale about the JD change (and share the same 'taste' so to say), you're just preventing other game styles w/o adding much to your own.

Of course it would be completely different if NPC fighter used JDs in vanilla. If that were true, you coundn't just choose not to install JDs on your fighters, because you'd be at great disadvantage vs. NPCs. You'd need to MOD such a change in.

Bottom line being: a MOD should change things that are beyond player control, and not just limit player options, expecially with very little gain.

Example 1: there's no (in game) way I can make HEPTs less powerful in my game... I may choose not to fire 4 a time and fire only 3, but then I'll have more laser energy. I may choose to deliberately miss a shot every 3, yet that would be cumbersome to say the least... and I can't prevent NPC ships from firing full power HEPTs at me. If I want to nerf HEPTs in my game, I need a MOD for that.

Example 2: I don't like the Argon M5 to be able to mount JDs. Since the only entity in the game that can mount a JD on a Disco it's me, I just don't do that. And if I don't do that, I'll never see a JD on any Disco in my game. Definitely I don't need a MOD for that. It's a style choice. The only thing a MOD would bring me is the ware being listed red at docks, effectively enforcing my own choice on me. It makes sense totally as a small, optional MOD. It makes less sense as a mandatory part of a general purpose, wide scoped MOD. (It does make sense as an option in that MOD, tho).

[paulwheeler]

BTW - have you tried the Missile Pack from the CMOD? It makes all missiles far more effective and faster (you'll need a turret script to counter it though - MDMk2 is perfect and simple).

Its on my radar to try before the XRM comes out.....i would need to do a restart to install MDMk2...so im putting it off for a little while.

Have just tried to install Gazz's missile safety, thinking that would make the spectre situation better on my Excalibur wing, except to make it work on all your ships you need to download OOS, and for that to work you need to download MARS, which is something I DO NOT want...so that's buggered that idea up then.

You shouldn't need a restart to install MDMk2...

[Mizuchi]

I've never seen a JD on a NPC fighter, or I've never seen a NPC fighter jump (maybe in some plot mission, or was it X3:R even?).

You'll find that a bunch of fighters sometimes jump if you're on an assassination mission and kill your mark before the escorts can react.

M3s, M6s, and M8s usually(/somtimes) jump, while M4s and M5s tend to just run away.

Trading M3s (usually Vanguards) sometimes jump, but it's pretty rare.

I think the former is scripted as part of the MD code, however.

Also, for the record and to play Devil's Advocate (:twisted:), I like Jump Drives as they are.

Just sayin'. Haters gonna hate.

But Dienadel does have a point: considering that only player-owned ships can really make much use of Jump Drives (which is a shame), isn't restricting them even further basically a case of "I like to explore in a fighter, but I can't trust myself to not use a Jump Drive, so please take that option away from me because I am sabotaging my own enjoyment"?

[paulwheeler]

I like to explore in a fighter, but I can't trust myself to not use a Jump Drive, so please take that option away from me because I am sabotaging my own enjoyment[/color]"?

Thats exactly it - I have no self-control.



...tell me again Mizuchi why you haven't installed Cycrow's cheat scripts...?

[Mizuchi]

...tell me again Mizuchi why you haven't installed Cycrow's cheat scripts...?

Because the only thing that I'd be cheating with them... is myself.

[ external image ]

I have an aversion to cheats.