Just how much of a mess is Greece in, and what will happen?

[Samuel Creshal]

Tell me please how the situation is better now than it was, say in 2010? All I seem to see is a lot of dithering and poor leadership.

No, the EU is going down the gutter. Praising the British nationalists, who did (and do) everything they can to sabotage the EU (together with the nationalists of all other EU countries – united in hate ) is just a little bit out of place …

[Skism]

The whole of the EU just seems to be a mess to me, with very little in the way of proper leadership. It continues to completely baffle me how so many countries fell for the Euro scam. How can you have a united currency, without monetary and political union?

Thank goodness the UK is not in the Euro.

Yeah, "more nationalism" is clearly going to be the solution for "too much nationalism".

Er nationalism is a reaction not the root cause of an economic crisis - How do you think the Nationalism of Greece (or for that matter the UK) is responsible for their economic plight?

[Samuel Creshal]

The whole of the EU just seems to be a mess to me, with very little in the way of proper leadership. It continues to completely baffle me how so many countries fell for the Euro scam. How can you have a united currency, without monetary and political union?

Thank goodness the UK is not in the Euro.

Yeah, "more nationalism" is clearly going to be the solution for "too much nationalism".

Er nationalism is a reaction not the root cause of an economic crisis - How do you think the Nationalism of Greece (or for that matter the UK) is responsible for their economic plight?

Well, why don't we have a monetary and political union in the first place?

[greypanther]

I am unsure of what you are saying Samuel...
Are you saying then that a monetary union ( Euro ) BEFORE a financial and political one was a good idea then? Because if so, then we are way apart on our ideas of logic I am afraid Samuel.

Out of place how? The Euro was a huge mistake imo and yes I am very glad the UK is not in it. However the past cannot be changed, but all this dithering is not going to help is it? Do you really think things would have turned out any better with the UK in the Euro? I cannot see it myself.

Whose idea was the introduction of the Euro anyway? Who pushed, lobbied the hardest for it? How much have they earned at the expense of so many others?

If anything the whole Euro farce and the mess things are in, has probably reduced the chance of a United States of Europe.

*edit*

Well, why don't we have a monetary and political union in the first place?

As I have done several times before, I will do so again.
That should have come first! Problem is some numpties thought it was a good idea to do it arse about!

[Skism]

Tell me please how the situation is better now than it was, say in 2010? All I seem to see is a lot of dithering and poor leadership.

No, the EU is going down the gutter. Praising the British nationalists, who did (and do) everything they can to sabotage the EU (together with the nationalists of all other EU countries – united in hate ) is just a little bit out of place …

Oh now see this is disturbing you are blaming 'nationalists' for you own problems - The supranational model was a fail model Sam - it was/is a one size fits all model that does not account for all countries...

Please don't think I like my politicians - I think most of them are scum and I have protested against them rather them than the EU though

Edit: this is getting of topic now really

[Skism]

The whole of the EU just seems to be a mess to me, with very little in the way of proper leadership. It continues to completely baffle me how so many countries fell for the Euro scam. How can you have a united currency, without monetary and political union?

Thank goodness the UK is not in the Euro.

Yeah, "more nationalism" is clearly going to be the solution for "too much nationalism".

Er nationalism is a reaction not the root cause of an economic crisis - How do you think the Nationalism of Greece (or for that matter the UK) is responsible for their economic plight?

Well, why don't we have a monetary and political union in the first place?

Cos we vetoed it ? seriously that would not have solved your problems the EMU was completely unworkable....

[Samuel Creshal]

I am unsure of what you are saying...
Are you saying then that a monetary union BEFORE a financial and political one was a good idea then?

No. It should have included a financial union from the beginning. But certain people didn't want to give up too much power…

Do you really think things would have turned out any better with the UK in the Euro? I cannot see it myself.

A pro-European Britain pushing for tighter integration could have helped a lot paving a way for further unification.
(The same goes for a pro-European France, Italy, Germany, Austria and everyone else, though.)

Whose idea was the introduction of the Euro anyway? Who pushed, lobbied the hardest for it?

France and Great Britain, making German acceptance of the Euro at crippling exchange rates mandatory to allow reunification.

The original French-Italian plan including a financial union was abandoned after the veto of… Thatcher. (Not that she would have been the only one to veto, but it clearly didn't help…)

@Skism: Kleinstaaterei doesn't work. The half-arsed EU doesn't work. I think unification deserves its fair chance.

[Shrewd135]

He said, $40,000. The real answer from GM is like $8,000. That includes all costs.

Funny thing that GM has around 5% net income… according to your numbers it should be 80%.

That is because the numbers that they put on their balance sheet are nonsense. If you look at thier balance sheet and do the numbers yourself, it will take around 2 hours to show just how much lying is going on.

I did that for BMW, and it was insane, the executive compensation is the only thing that could eat the types of moneys left over after legit costs.

BTW, if you think that a large corporation cannot lie on its balance sheet, I have some land in camaroon to sell you.

[Samuel Creshal]

He said, $40,000. The real answer from GM is like $8,000. That includes all costs.

Funny thing that GM has around 5% net income… according to your numbers it should be 80%.

That is because the numbers that they put on their balance sheet are nonsense. If you look at thier balance sheet and do the numbers yourself, it will take around 2 hours to show just how much lying is going on.

I did that for BMW, and it was insane, the executive compensation is the only thing that could eat the types of moneys left over after legit costs.

You can do the entire annual accounting for a company of that size in 2 hours? I guess I must hire you, our accounts appear to be way too slow!

[greypanther]

So its all Thatchers fault? I want to argue with you, but a bit if Thatch bashing is a favourite hobby of mine.

There I am glad we have put that to bed now, Greece is suffering because of Thatch!

Now how would you repair things?

[Samuel Creshal]

So its all Thatchers fault? I want to argue with you, but a bit if Thatch bashing is a favourite hobby of mine.

Thatcher's and all her companions all over Europe. Because why be part of a superpower, when you can be an unimportant, pointless dot on the map?

Now how would you repair things?

The traditional German way: Panzers, lots of it.

[silenced]

Now how would you repair things?

The traditional German way: Panzers, lots of it.

Well, where should they come from? We got none left in the Bundeswehr ... all sold or scrapped or dead because of out of fuel and not used for a decade.

[Samuel Creshal]

Now how would you repair things?

The traditional German way: Panzers, lots of it.

Well, where should they come from? We got none left in the Bundeswehr ... all sold or scrapped or dead because of out of fuel and not used for a decade.

See, we first stimulate the economy by building a few thousand new, then decrease unemployment by raising the army size to a million, and finally conquer our creditors. It worked so well last time!

[Shrewd135]

He said, $40,000. The real answer from GM is like $8,000. That includes all costs.

Funny thing that GM has around 5% net income… according to your numbers it should be 80%.

That is because the numbers that they put on their balance sheet are nonsense. If you look at thier balance sheet and do the numbers yourself, it will take around 2 hours to show just how much lying is going on.

I did that for BMW, and it was insane, the executive compensation is the only thing that could eat the types of moneys left over after legit costs.

You can do the entire annual accounting for a company of that size in 2 hours? I guess I must hire you, our accounts appear to be way too slow!

The annual report tells all debt outstanding and financing rates, you have the monthly expenses for debt obligations from there. Add in pention obligations (another line item) and you have the total fixed capital costs per month/year. They tell you how many employees that they have, so you can toss some random large number on all of them like 100k for every single employee (WAY overboard easily, and underboard for exec compensation but will show an average case before exec).

Then break down the costs for raw materials, parts, for each product, which takes the vast majority of the time, and you can have a reasonable estimate of true costs per vehicle within 20%, they list their inventory in the company filings, so you know how many products they have created/sold... and at this point you have a number that represents the approx actual costs of the corporation before exec... and advertising.

For BMW a 60 billion dollar company, you will find this number is ~30 billion dollars.. and your jaw will drop. You have already covered all those costs, including employees (overestimated except exec) and you still have 30 billion left over. No advertising comes anywhere near that. No wonder VW could buy companies when ever they want. They say in the end they only have profit of like 8-10% or 6 billion dollars. Which does not jive at all. So you have to actually do the homework to see the truth. Because they can put what ever they want on a balance sheet.

When I worked at Toshiba, the CFO said, "Oh this job is easy, corporate tells me what to put on my monthly reports... " aka not through actual inventory analysis. So your eye roll should be reserved for your lack of understanding of the truth of the situation.

BTw, the cost per corvette was directly from an exec at GM.

[greypanther]

Well we could all join the Russian Federation? A Russian politician was asked you see if they, the Russians that is, would ever join the EU. The politician said: " not a chance, but you can all come and join our Federation if you like? " I wish I could find the link.

Last point for me for now.

The EU is a bit like the old donkey some would believe in a stereotypical way, that some Mediterranean people own. Thing is that donkey is getting old now, gets confused a lot and is not really fit for purpose; does little work. The vets get a lot of work though, keeping the donkey muddling along. Problem is the donkey is starting to suffer now and some of its extremities are in a lot of pain. The poor old donkey does keep going round and round though and the vets are very happy with the steady work. How long do we allow the poor thing to go around and around in circles before we make the painful decision? Isn't it time to put the poor old thing out of its misery, take it out the back and humanely put it down? Time to get a new donkey? After all only the fat vets seem to be profiting and enjoying the situation.

[Skism]

Now how would you repair things?

The traditional German way: Panzers, lots of it.

Well, where should they come from? We got none left in the Bundeswehr ... all sold or scrapped or dead because of out of fuel and not used for a decade.

See, we first stimulate the economy by building a few thousand new, then decrease unemployment by raising the army size to a million, and finally conquer our creditors. It worked so well last time!

Perhaps I should end my contribution on this note:

Heaven is where the police are British, the Chefs are Italian, the mechanics are German the Lovers are French, and its all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German the mechanics are French, the Lovers are Swiss and its all organized by the Italians.

The problem with your European superstate was that you tried to have German laws instead of British ones

and regionalism/pride in country is perfectly fine btw (we will have to do a gentleman's disagreement on that)

[Samuel Creshal]

The problem with your European superstate was that you tried to have German laws instead of British ones

No, no, German, French and Italian ones. More are better, right?

and regionalism/pride in country is perfectly fine btw (we will have to do a gentleman's disagreement on that)

It can be fine. If taken too serious it can also end up rendering a huge part of your continent a heap of uninhabitable ***t (pre-unification Germany, pre- and post-unification Balkan, Austria-Hungary ["unified" and destroyed from inside out by differences between Hungarian and Austrian aristocracy], Pre-unification China, "We're better than those Western low lifes–what's an Opium war?"-era China, Warlord-era China, pre-unification Italy, pre-unification Japan, post-Roman Europe, … ).

[Shrewd135]

Or you could have just studied American History and seen that we already tried what you have with the EU in our first failed constitution. Then said.. oh wait we have seen how they, who had very similar culture and backgrounds, couldn't even make a little over a dozen states work without a strong federal government.. and saved yourselves the trouble.

But you live... you learn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation

[Samuel Creshal]

Or you could have just studied American History and seen that we already tried what you have with the EU in our first failed constitution. Then said.. oh wait we have seen how they, who had very similar culture and backgrounds, couldn't even make a little over a dozen states work without a strong federal government.. and saved yourselves the trouble.

Last time I checked, the USA were still a single country with a financial and political union. The current USA have a vastly stronger and more centralized central government than the EU. Which is kinda our point.

[Shrewd135]

Or you could have just studied American History and seen that we already tried what you have with the EU in our first failed constitution. Then said.. oh wait we have seen how they, who had very similar culture and backgrounds, couldn't even make a little over a dozen states work without a strong federal government.. and saved yourselves the trouble.

Last time I checked, the USA were still a single country with a financial and political union. The current USA have a vastly stronger and more centralized central government than the EU. Which is kinda our point.

I provided a link... to the articles of confederation... the first constitution america tried with a very weak federal government.... and it failed miserably... THEN the constitution that you know of as the USA was built... fixing the previous issue. So you sort of missed my point.