Current [POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?

[stilgarpl]

okey, thats nice, i use the albion prelude one atm with a 7-8 mods on the side and it makes the game much more enjoyable.

but having the game for a year without no mods could be a problem for many players....

Can't you just disable updates in Steam configuration?

[Slashman]

Mods and Steam and X-Rebirth


IF i buy the game from steam (i already did) i would like that option to include a way to mod my game without steam updating the game everytime i restart it...

my 2c.

a nosteam.exe should be released by egosoft at some point (a year, or so after release).

Quite honestly, that symptom is Egosoft's doing. Torchlight 2 doesn't break mods with every update and neither does Skyrim for the most part.

Modding was simply implemented badly in X3. I hope Egosoft have learned their lesson on this, because every single mod should not break with a simple patch for your game.

[efernal]

I'll add my 2 cents to this: DRM = no sale! Too many times have I had to deal with nasty DRM messing up my pc to the point of clearing the hard drive and starting over that I refuse to install anything with it.

I under stand the need to protect ones assets, But to go out of your way and punish those who paid for their copy legally is going too far. Starforce, Secrurom and the need to be online to play is utter rubbish. No the need to register a cd key to get updates and support via the official forums is the right way to go about protecting your goods. You get more respect from older gamers who know the worst parts of DRM (Like me) and we will recommend a good game to others if it is DRM free. That and any publisher that is not as big as say EA, Should consider the fallout of annoying the smaller amount of paying customers they do have.

When Impulse was still Impulse now they used GOO as a form of drm and I never had any problems with it. Steam I hear mixed reviews and my personal experience wasn't bad with it. EA, Blizzard and Ubisoft showed the world what Bad drm and poor planning can do to a publisher.


In short: If you player base is small don't go yanking the chains.

[andrewas]

Mods and Steam and X-Rebirth


IF i buy the game from steam (i already did) i would like that option to include a way to mod my game without steam updating the game everytime i restart it...

my 2c.

Go [url=steam://nav/console]here[/url]

If your browser asks, you want to open that in steam.

Then type:

@allowskipgameupdate 1

Supposedly, you can now decline game updates. I haven't tried it myself. IIRC, there is another option somewhere in there that disables game updates entirely, but I can't find it right now.

[Sandalpocalypse]

With Egosofts mod format, mods shouldn't be causing Steam updates. Steam has a file roster, it ignores everything not on the roster, so mods only interfere if they replace base game files. And there's no reason for X-game mods to replace game files.

[Slashman]

With Egosofts mod format, mods shouldn't be causing Steam updates. Steam has a file roster, it ignores everything not on the roster, so mods only interfere if they replace base game files. And there's no reason for X-game mods to replace game files.

Specifically, the problem is that somehow Egosoft never foresaw people running multiple mods

When you run multiple mods(or mods which have multiple parts), you need to create fake patch files. Updates which add to the .dat file number sequence will overwrite a mod .dat using that same number. Voila! Your mod is now broken. You've never touched the main game files, but they have reached out and touched you.

The method that is required to mod things in X3 is the problem. If you run a SINGLE mod using the mod option in the launcher, you'll never notice it.

The other problem is also how data is stored in X3. In order to do things like add new ships etc. you need to change or edit the tships file which essentially means changing a core game file which houses all the data for all the ships in the game. There isn't a way around that. You can't just add another file for the new ships.

[CBJ]

No, funnily enough while creating a game engine at a time when Steam was just a twinkle in Gabe's eye, Egosoft didn't foresee people running multiple mods in conjunction with an auto-updating download system!

Luckily this time around we know all about these things and have built a modding system that's much more flexible and powerful.

[A5PECT]

As for mod-friendliness, the ease and effectiveness of mod installation is dependent upon the developer, not Steam. Since Rebirth is being designed from the start with Steam in mind, the developers can make sure the game's modding architecture is not adversely affected by Steam's functionality. This is compared to Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude, whose core engine finished development well before being moved into Steam. Egosoft also has a chance to rectify general flaws in the original X3 modding architecture that are not caused by Steam.

No, funnily enough while creating a game engine at a time when Steam was just a twinkle in Gabe's eye, Egosoft didn't foresee people running multiple mods in conjunction with an auto-updating download system!

Luckily this time around we know all about these things and have built a modding system that's much more flexible and powerful.

[ external image ]

[Alci]

Luckily this time around we know all about these things and have built a modding system that's much more flexible and powerful.

Steam Workshop?

[Sandalpocalypse]

@CBJ: Glad to hear it

When you run multiple mods(or mods which have multiple parts), you need to create fake patch files. Updates which add to the .dat file number sequence will overwrite a mod .dat using that same number. Voila! Your mod is now broken. You've never touched the main game files, but they have reached out and touched you.

The method that is required to mod things in X3 is the problem. If you run a SINGLE mod using the mod option in the launcher, you'll never notice it.

The other problem is also how data is stored in X3. In order to do things like add new ships etc. you need to change or edit the tships file which essentially means changing a core game file which houses all the data for all the ships in the game. There isn't a way around that. You can't just add another file for the new ships.

The fake patches are only a problem if the game updates and adds a new file, which happens once in a forever. It won't cause Steam to patch or overwrite every time it starts up. If you were really concerned, you could even use a dummy fake patch in the 'update' slot.

And no, you don't need to mod the core Tships file. Tfiles could be used in mods or fake patches just fine.

[Slashman]

The fake patches are only a problem if the game updates and adds a new file, which happens once in a forever. It won't cause Steam to patch or overwrite every time it starts up. If you were really concerned, you could even use a dummy fake patch in the 'update' slot.

Well it is not a huge issue for me. It was more of a concern for the anti-Steam crowd when this thread first started. It still is a very sloppy way of using multiple mods. Even with Steam out of the equation. It means that just applying a patch of any sort could break your entire set of mods.

You're right in that it won't cause Steam to update your files when it starts unless you do a file verify or something.

Also, why should someone need to add a dummy fake patch? The whole thing is cumbersome. I remember modding Oblivion and patching it while not breaking every mod in my game.

And no, you don't need to mod the core Tships file. Tfiles could be used in mods or fake patches just fine.

You don't need to, but any changes in the core file still caused the others to break.

Forgot to mention that A5pect is now my designated psychic!

[eXodL]

No, funnily enough while creating a game engine at a time when Steam was just a twinkle in Gabe's eye, Egosoft didn't foresee people running multiple mods in conjunction with an auto-updating download system!

Luckily this time around we know all about these things and have built a modding system that's much more flexible and powerful.

Are we going to see Steam Workshop implemented? It will definitely bring more people to the modding scene as workshop is more convenient and easier to use, both for mod creators and users.

Unless there's a mod sharing with proper search functions and sorting built into the game, workshop is probably the best option to create, share and find the mods you're interested in. I hope it will be considered.

[CBJ]

Steam Workshop support is probably unlikely for the initial release, but it's something we'd like to do and we've kept it very much in mind in the design.

[Sandalpocalypse]

Oh please yes Steam Workshop.

The difference it's made for getting Arma 3 missions versus Arma 2 missions is frankly ludicrous.

It even has support for mod changelogs now~~

....

......

Now all I can think about is what TF2 hat Valve should be distributing for XR preorders. X-vision drone goggles that make everything look like space combat?

Also, why should someone need to add a dummy fake patch? The whole thing is cumbersome. I remember modding Oblivion and patching it while not breaking every mod in my game.

I wholly agree!

Just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page about how Steam patching/mod support worked.

[Phaser Rave]

Steam Workshop support is probably unlikely for the initial release, but it's something we'd like to do and we've kept it very much in mind in the design.

That's great to hear!

[Wayrest]

I've played the X games since day one and am hugely disappointed with the choice to go solely through Steam DRM. Why?

1. I went with Steam some 2 years ago in order to play Skyrim. At the time I remember carefully reading the user agreements which basically gave Valve the right to take whatever information they want and give it to whoever they want and not even check the privacy policies of third parties. It was the responsibility of the 'customer' to find out who Valve was giving information to and then check those policies for themselves. "Only an idiot would agree to this" I thought to myself. But I wanted to play Skyrim, so idiot I am. Not again though.

2. After only two weeks offline mode stopped working, forcing me to log on to the Steam client. This has happened approximately fortnightly ever since. For more than six months I was without a router (hard to justify the purchase for one supposedly single-player offline game when I could access emails through my mobile) so I was unable to play Skyrim at all during that time. Look at the number of posts regarding this problem and you'll see that it's widespread. Saying that an internet connection is not required to play the game, just activate it, is mis-selling the product when so many people have problems with offline mode. Valve/Steam is useless when it comes to trying to fix the 'problem' and I have a string of useless emails to prove it. But why would they want to fix it? Every 2 weeks or so I have to connect to the Steam service so they can carry out their data-harvesting.

3. Linked to the above problem is the enforced patching with no information on what is being changed. Dragons flying backwards, anyone? I want the freedom to research patches and choose whether or not to apply them.

Whatever the fans say about it, Steam is data-harvesting malware. Failing to make it clear that an internet connection may be required in order to play a Steam game, as well as activate it, is gross product mis-labeling while the offline mode isn't reliable.

I'm not going to criticise Egosoft for their business decision, they've proven themselves to be a very customer-friendly business in a market that generally isn't. However, I do criticise them for selling the game as 'not requiring an internet connection to play' when offline mode is unreliable for many.

Sorry for the rant, but I see so many people ignorantly saying "Steam is great" that I just had to....let off steam.

[pjknibbs]

Whatever the fans say about it, Steam is data-harvesting malware.

None of the rest of your post has anything to do with data harvesting, so why is this here? If Steam were harvesting data from your system, don't you think somebody would have noticed sometime in the nearly 10 years since it was released?

I'm not a Steam fanboy (prefer Gamers Gate personally) and I have no objections to people complaining about the quality of service they receive from Valve, but to accuse Steam of harvesting data from their systems with no proof whatsoever bugs me a little.

[GebürtigerTerraner]

I've played the X games since day one and am hugely disappointed with the choice to go solely through Steam DRM. Why?

1. I went with Steam some 2 years ago in order to play Skyrim. At the time I remember carefully reading the user agreements which basically gave Valve the right to take whatever information they want and give it to whoever they want and not even check the privacy policies of third parties. It was the responsibility of the 'customer' to find out who Valve was giving information to and then check those policies for themselves. "Only an idiot would agree to this" I thought to myself. But I wanted to play Skyrim, so idiot I am. Not again though.

2. After only two weeks offline mode stopped working, forcing me to log on to the Steam client. This has happened approximately fortnightly ever since. For more than six months I was without a router (hard to justify the purchase for one supposedly single-player offline game when I could access emails through my mobile) so I was unable to play Skyrim at all during that time. Look at the number of posts regarding this problem and you'll see that it's widespread. Saying that an internet connection is not required to play the game, just activate it, is mis-selling the product when so many people have problems with offline mode. Valve/Steam is useless when it comes to trying to fix the 'problem' and I have a string of useless emails to prove it. But why would they want to fix it? Every 2 weeks or so I have to connect to the Steam service so they can carry out their data-harvesting.

3. Linked to the above problem is the enforced patching with no information on what is being changed. Dragons flying backwards, anyone? I want the freedom to research patches and choose whether or not to apply them.

Whatever the fans say about it, Steam is data-harvesting malware. Failing to make it clear that an internet connection may be required in order to play a Steam game, as well as activate it, is gross product mis-labeling while the offline mode isn't reliable.

I'm not going to criticise Egosoft for their business decision, they've proven themselves to be a very customer-friendly business in a market that generally isn't. However, I do criticise them for selling the game as 'not requiring an internet connection to play' when offline mode is unreliable for many.

Sorry for the rant, but I see so many people ignorantly saying "Steam is great" that I just had to....let off steam.

Most of this is user-generated error.You have the option to deactivate patches,they ask nicely whether they can use data or not(and this data is pretty much worhtles) and every game that requires Steam has a label that informs you about it.That offline mode is pretty buggy,that is true.

[nonnex]

Well, I'm one of the persons who has accompanied valves steam (9 Years from now) maybe one of the first day members, but hav'nt used it since then or the last years. till now.

I was not convinced with the concept back then, because of the bandwith lack.
But now, I have changed my mind, because of the fascinating things that has resulting of that nowdays.

The Platform is really cool and impressive.

[Wayrest]

In response to pjknibbs and GebürtigerTerraner.

I wrote about data harvesting (or collection, if you prefer) under point 1. I refer you to http://store.steampowered.com/privacy_agreement/ Specifically:

"By using Valve's online sites, products, and services, users agree that Valve may collect personally identifiable information (as defined below). Valve will not share personally identifiable information with other parties except as described in this policy. Valve may also collect aggregate information and individual information. "Aggregate information" is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of users as a group but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular user. "Individual information" is information about a user or user’s machine that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other users but not in a form that personally identifies any user or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any user. Valve may share aggregate and individual information with other parties without restriction."

Also:

"Valve will not share personally identifying information with third parties for marketing purposes."

The same isn't stated for individual and aggregate information. And I, personally, have never been asked by Valve for permission for data collection. I have, however, contacted them more than once regarding the provisions under the heading "Corrections, Updates and Removal of Personally Identifiable Information" and have never received a reply.

Now, I will admit that this is a far better policy than the one I read back when Skyrim was released and it does seem that Valve have become fairer with regard to privacy according to what I have read.

Another interesting read for those who argue for the long-term validity of licences outside of the EU is section 7 of http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

No data is worthless today, it all has a market value.

Games requiring Steam do NOT necessarily tell you that an internet connection may be required to play the game, which is possible given the unreliability of offline mode. Certainly the boxed versions of Skyrim and Dishonored don't. This is really my main complaint because it resulted in me being unable to access 'my' game for a long period.

And, as I said above, I have never been asked, nicely or otherwise, whether they can use data.

As for deactivating patches, I never spotted a way to do that so I may well be in error there.

Bottom line for me is that this is a game I would have bought on release, maybe even pre-ordered, but now I'll wait and see what happens. Given some of the DRM-free games coming up from Kickstarter projects and CDProjekt Red, XR may not even get 'back on the radar'. But I'm sure Egosoft will gain more customers than they lose by selling through Steam and making the gameplay more accessible, and I'm happy for them.