New ship balancing - asking for testing and feedback

AdmiralTigerclaw · Post by **AdmiralTigerclaw** » Mon, 17. Jan 05, 12:00

http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtop ... 33&start=0
Thalon Mook's Flagship mod.

The mod simply adds three ships to the game.

One is the X-Trans, a TS class ship with a neat looking model, a huge cargo bay, decent speed, and a phenominal pricetag for a TS. (S size is over a million.)

The next is a Modification to the Split Dragon. I believe it adds an extra shield slot, and one more forward laser, and it also gives an awesome graphics model update. (The thing looks MEAN!!!!) I just like to look at it from time to time.

FLAGSHIP: I don't know what else to call it, it's hidden in an outlying system's shipyard, so you have to hunt for it. It's fast, has huge capacity for fighters, an ungodly amount of shielding slots... you'll be spending a fortune just getting it tuned up. And the opening price tag on this thing is 150 million. However, as the name suggests... it's a Flagship. Meant to be your command vessel. Personally I think Thalon should make a few different versions and make one for each race. Then we'll see what comes of it.

*I mainly like having that neato dragon, and the X-Trans for hauling ORE about my fabs... although I'm working on building up credits to build my fleet of unstoppable roxorz shipszpzzz... bleh... no more l337 for me.*

Mauzi! · Post by **Mauzi!** » Mon, 17. Jan 05, 12:48

Hm.. I see. But I fear I'll have to put you down with your request. I really cannot see how I could make my balancing mod work with all the custom ships and mods out there. Of course it would be possible to work the new ships into my mod. In this case, it would have to be done by the mod maker.

All I ask for is to contact me before using my work. No author would like to see it being used without further notice.

Mauzi! · Post by **Mauzi!** » Mon, 17. Jan 05, 15:41

I just received word that there's a minor problem with the download file, so here's the resolution to it:

ATTENTION:
For unknown reasons the download file received a wrong file name "s". Just rename it to "Mauzi's ship balancing - V0.83.zip" after downloading to fix this.

DeadlyDa · Post by **DeadlyDa** » Mon, 17. Jan 05, 19:26

I really cannot see how I could make my balancing mod work with all the custom ships and mods out there.

I don't want to come across as a "fan boy" on this...but as a producer of a couple of graphics-based mods with over 14 custom ship/station models, I must agree with Mauzi!'s comment.

His mod implements a significant change to the gameplay of X2. If you are prepared to "reboot" your thinking regarding how to play X2, and start as though you just took the game out of the box and installed it for the 1st time, I think you may find that the changes (even the slow GHEPTs) work very well together.

The issue with custom ships is that their creators (myself included) tend to make their additions into "flying Mega-Death" monsters, with massive numbers of weapons, and the addition of the xeno-race's lasers. (Think T-Rex here...) If that is how you prefer to play X2...no problem. However, in that case Mauzi!'s mod is definitely not for you

Personally, I have played X2 for more hours than I can count...gone through the plot on numerous ocaisions...done the "my M5 can destroy your M2" thing, and was just killing time making custom ships until X2/TR came out.

When I first looked at Mauzi!'s mod, I didn't think I'd like it...mostly because it didn't match well with the style of play I had previously developed. However, after "de-tuning" my custom ships to align better with the standard X2 ship inventory, and working out new combat strategies, I find myself stealing time away form working on my mod(s) to just play the silly game...which of course, is exactly as it should be

Creston · Post by **Creston** » Tue, 18. Jan 05, 17:15

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote: According to some deep info in Star Wars...
The Millenium Falcon, a light transport of the YT-1300 class, could NOT outrun an Imperial Star Destroyer. (Those huge engines on the back actually do some pushing.) However, they could out MANUEVER it!

While slightly off-topic, this isn't actually true. The Millenium Falcon out-accelerated the Impstars by quite a large margin, which meant that the Impstars never stood a chance to catch up to them before they went to lightspeed.

Also, Han refers to the fact that he outran not the "local bulk cruisers, mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships". The Impstars created in the Corellian sector had a slight hyperdrive advantage over the ones created by, for example, Kuat DriveYards. So I think Han was more referring to outrunning them in hyperspace. (I have way too much useless Star Wars knowledge

)

To get back on topic, fighters should always be faster than an M6, because otherwise there simply is no purpose to having an M3. Being able to turn around faster doesn't make much of a difference compared to a vessel with turrets that outruns you.
I've NEVER understood why the Argon Nova is so pathetically dirt slow to begin with, not even in the original game. If a commercial FREIGHT HAULER is faster than your top of the line military fighter, you might as well commit mass suicide as a race, because it obviously shows you have no clue what the hell you are doing.

Btw, your comments about an M6 being faster because it has big engines makes no sense in the context of the X universe, where speeds are limited. In actual space physics, it would be true because is no speed limit (just a Delta-V limit, ie, how much fuel do you have to burn), but in the X universe, there is just no explanation why an M6 would outspeed an M3 (by quite a large margin, I might add. Only the Teladi Osprey is slower than the Argon Nova.)

Good Mod, I'll download it and look into it, you do need to increase M3 speeds, however.

Creston

D_Zorro · Post by **D_Zorro** » Tue, 18. Jan 05, 17:27

Creston wrote:
AdmiralTigerclaw wrote: According to some deep info in Star Wars...
The Millenium Falcon, a light transport of the YT-1300 class, could NOT outrun an Imperial Star Destroyer. (Those huge engines on the back actually do some pushing.) However, they could out MANUEVER it!
While slightly off-topic, this isn't actually true. The Millenium Falcon out-accelerated the Impstars by quite a large margin, which meant that the Impstars never stood a chance to catch up to them before they went to lightspeed.

Also, Han refers to the fact that he outran not the "local bulk cruisers, mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships". The Impstars created in the Corellian sector had a slight hyperdrive advantage over the ones created by, for example, Kuat DriveYards. So I think Han was more referring to outrunning them in hyperspace. (I have way too much useless Star Wars knowledge )

To get back on topic, fighters should always be faster than an M6, because otherwise there simply is no purpose to having an M3. Being able to turn around faster doesn't make much of a difference compared to a vessel with turrets that outruns you.
I've NEVER understood why the Argon Nova is so pathetically dirt slow to begin with, not even in the original game. If a commercial FREIGHT HAULER is faster than your top of the line military fighter, you might as well commit mass suicide as a race, because it obviously shows you have no clue what the hell you are doing.

Btw, your comments about an M6 being faster because it has big engines makes no sense in the context of the X universe, where speeds are limited. In actual space physics, it would be true because is no speed limit (just a Delta-V limit, ie, how much fuel do you have to burn), but in the X universe, there is just no explanation why an M6 would outspeed an M3 (by quite a large margin, I might add. Only the Teladi Osprey is slower than the Argon Nova.)

Good Mod, I'll download it and look into it, you do need to increase M3 speeds, however.

Creston

Actually looking at the speed of the osprey, it's still faster then the nova. don't forget the nova can only fly 163 while the osprey reaches 171.

DZorro,

Mauzi! · Post by **Mauzi!** » Tue, 18. Jan 05, 17:42

@Zorro:

While your numbers are true for the original game, he referred to the speeds in the balancing mod I created. And in that mod, the Osprey is slower than the Nova.

@Creaston

I played those (re-balanced) two ship to see about the numbers once again. In short: The Nova may not be faster, it is already way overpowered.

Please keep in mind the weapon changes that I applied and then look at the weapon selection of the Nova: It has the mighty B-HEPT, the now strong mass driver aswell as they always strong Ion Disruptor. Combine this with the exceptional back turret that no other M3 has (and which is a damn huge benefit vs. the now powerful missiles) and the full shields and lots of cargo space, and you will find that this ship mustn't be faster. Es there'd hardly be a need for using any other M3 ever.

I played a bit with it, and it is simple enough to kill a Khaak M2 with the Nova on many ways, be it the "standard" ID+HEPT/missile style or the mass driver attack which now is possible aswell.

So, for those that seek safety, they Nova is a great ship. But safety doesn't usually go with speed - and so it is here aswell. Don't call the Argon stupid for having a slow but powerful ship. Unlike e.g. the Split they are rather defensive, and for such the Nova is perfect. Same goes for the Teladi and their Osprey.

As result of this detailed view on the two mighty slow-motion ships, I cannot see a need for a speed change here.

Galaxy613 · Post by **Galaxy613** » Tue, 18. Jan 05, 19:05

Nice sounding mod! I'm going to test it after I uninstall AGEIS. I'm also going to try to rebalance the ships/lasers.

Can't wait to test this.

Mauzi! · Post by **Mauzi!** » Tue, 18. Jan 05, 19:15

@CKarl:

This balancing mod already cares for weapon and missiles aswell, since that's required after changing the ships speeds and agility. So, from the view of this balancing mod they're done already and don't need additional work.

If you plan on working on an own laser/missile mod, I'd like to hear about your ideas.

Galaxy613 · Post by **Galaxy613** » Tue, 18. Jan 05, 19:46

I MENT I was working on my own, not a addon to yours. This post got me thinking about rebalancing so I did some "rebalancing" in my mod, tho I don't know how much more balanced it is. xD

Anyways... time to play yours.

Galaxy613 · Post by **Galaxy613** » Tue, 18. Jan 05, 20:23

lol, I just capped a Pirate Mandaly in your new mod... IN A DISCO WITH AIREs!!! xD It's now going back to a Wharf to sell it for money.

I haven't capped many ships in all my time I had X2, so this was a good supirse.

AdmiralTigerclaw · Post by **AdmiralTigerclaw** » Tue, 18. Jan 05, 22:08

Creston wrote:
AdmiralTigerclaw wrote: According to some deep info in Star Wars...
The Millenium Falcon, a light transport of the YT-1300 class, could NOT outrun an Imperial Star Destroyer. (Those huge engines on the back actually do some pushing.) However, they could out MANUEVER it!
While slightly off-topic, this isn't actually true. The Millenium Falcon out-accelerated the Impstars by quite a large margin, which meant that the Impstars never stood a chance to catch up to them before they went to lightspeed.

Also, Han refers to the fact that he outran not the "local bulk cruisers, mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships". The Impstars created in the Corellian sector had a slight hyperdrive advantage over the ones created by, for example, Kuat DriveYards. So I think Han was more referring to outrunning them in hyperspace. (I have way too much useless Star Wars knowledge )

Creston

Check out the websites on the Star Wars Technical Commentaries (This guy or group of guys did some MONDO research.) This basis worked on some info in the lines of one of the approved comics that a YT-1300 could not straight outrun an Impstar. (I beleive the relevant information is under Star Destroyers, Engines) As well as other cannon footage, a few hundred mathematical barbs, and tons of photos to back it up. While the M.F. can out accellerate, and out manuever an Impstar.... when those things get up to speed at sublight, they'll catch just about anything. (If that wasn't the case, how could one manage to 'chase' the falcon during The Empire Strikes back?) However, hyperspace is a whole other animal.
But remember lukes line as they were leaving Tatooine, while getting pummeled by an Impstar Deux.
"I THOUGHT YOU SAID THIS THING WAS FAST!?"

Creston · Post by **Creston** » Wed, 19. Jan 05, 05:18

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote: "I THOUGHT YOU SAID THIS THING WAS FAST!?"

Exactly, which I always thought was an indication that Han meant in Hyperspace, which is why he mentions that she runs "point five past lightspeed."

But oh well.

Creston

Burianek · Post by **Burianek** » Wed, 19. Jan 05, 06:58

This is getting slightly off topic.

While I'm sure everyone finds the discussion amusing, it would be better in the off-topic forum. Let's try to keep this thread clear and on topic so Mauzi! has an easy time reading and commenting on the feedback he receives for his excellent mod.

Thanks.

Mauzi! · Post by **Mauzi!** » Fri, 4. Feb 05, 01:23

*** New Balancing Mod Version 0.89 available! ***

Finally a new update of the Balancing Mod has been finished and is published at the well-known download location. Those who are not familiar with it yet may just follow the link in my signature.

As always I am asking for feedback and ideas.

Special thanks go to Merroc und Amadeusl for their help with this mod.

IMPORTANT: This mod is not compatible with AEGIS and messes up if you use that. To use the mod, you'll need to uninstall the AEGIS extension. This can easily be done by using the installer program of the bonus pack, which you also use to get the AEGIS extension re-installed. Please keep in mind that after deinstalling AEGIS you might need to manually set new commands for those ships who used AEGIS commands.

Galaxy613 · Post by **Galaxy613** » Fri, 4. Feb 05, 02:27

sw33t stuff Mazi!

Mauzi! · Post by **Mauzi!** » Fri, 4. Feb 05, 20:10

By permission of Bernd I hereby inform you that the above version of my balancing will be taken into the development of X²tR.

This of course doesn't imply that it won't get modified any further - that's not possible due to the upcoming new stuff -, but the ideas and concepts behind this balancing got accepted and will now be tested in the future X²TR environment.

Aketzali · Post by **Aketzali** » Mon, 7. Feb 05, 16:06

I have just tried the "Economy Simulator" with your mod and were unable to kill the Xenon m's in the end with the Argon Nova with 2 alpha HEPT's. Without your mod I do not have problems with that, so I am thinking of whether gamma PAC's now are overpowered, compared with alpha HEPT's.

If one, for instance, is about to buy an Argon Nova with 2 alpha HEPT's, then one also has the possibility of buying a small fleet of e.g. Boron Mako's with 2 gamma PAC's each. Will it not in this case, with your mod, clearly be an advantage to buy the small fleet of Boron Mako's and shouldn't there be a balance?

Mauzi! · Post by **Mauzi!** » Mon, 7. Feb 05, 16:20

aketzali wrote:I have just tried the "Economy Simulator" with your mod and were unable to kill the Xenon m's in the end with the Argon Nova with 2 alpha HEPT's. Without your mod I do not have problems with that, so I am thinking of whether gamma PAC's now are overpowered, compared with alpha HEPT's.

Actually, the IREs and PACs got improved to be in-line with the other weapons. So, the G-PAC *is* weaker than the A-HEPT, but not so very much. Though, being a G-Type, it shoots slower while having a high energy consumption.
For the Xenon Ms the main "problem" of killing them lies in their high manouverability aswell as their "double gun", while the Nova - being a larger ship class - lacks the manouverability and has rather far placed mainguns. This is intentional - the Xenon are a race without special weapons or high speed, their main strength is agility and strong shields, which combines to giving the player a somewhat hard time.
Also, I wonder why you don't use B-HEPTs in your Nova, that extra damabe is what might help you - along with the use of (fast) missiles.

aketzali wrote:If one, for instance, is about to buy an Argon Nova with 2 alpha HEPT's, then one also has the possibility of buying a small fleet of e.g. Boron Mako's with 2 gamma PAC's each. Will it not in this case, with your mod, clearly be an advantage to buy the small fleet of Boron Mako's and shouldn't there be a balance?

Again, you should use B-HEPTs for the Nova as possible. And yes, having wingmen M4s is very useful now (give them missiles too!), but prepare to lose one occasionally due to the limitations of the AI. Most clever would be to drag all enemy attention on your own ship while your wings stay mostly undamaged.

Summary:
The M4 now is a capable ship, which is one of the main goals of this balancing mod.

Aketzali · Post by **Aketzali** » Mon, 7. Feb 05, 16:38

The advantage of the present weapons system is that there is a simple relationship between price and weapons power: you get what you pay for. Since an alpha HEPT costs twice as much as a gamme PAC, it should also be twice as powerful.