Hyperion and Sapporo should get some speed buff

[GCU Grey Area]

Syn and Rattlesnake also perform fine as long as they are constantly moving and strafing.

Strafing in a Syn or Rattlesnake, why bother? Have flown both (& all other destroyers for that matter) & strafe was of extremely limited utility for any of them, barely noticeable. Hyperion's different though - you can fling it around as if It's an oversized frigate (one with 3kMW of main guns, 2x as many turrets & 2.5x the shielding). I mostly fly frigates, I have little patience for the terrible manoeuvrability of anything bigger & in that context Hyperion's an absolute monster (much like the original X3 Hyperion when it was the sole representative of the M7 class).

[flywlyx]

Strafing in a Syn or Rattlesnake, why bother? Have flown both (& all other destroyers for that matter) & strafe was of extremely limited utility for any of them, barely noticeable. Hyperion's different though - you can fling it around as if It's an oversized frigate (one with 3kMW of main guns, 2x as many turrets & 2.5x the shielding). I mostly fly frigates, I have little patience for the terrible manoeuvrability of anything bigger & in that context Hyperion's an absolute monster (much like the original X3 Hyperion when it was the sole representative of the M7 class).

I believe most frigates are at least twice as agile as the Hyperion, as it remains larger and slower than them. This could also explain why the AI struggles to utilize it effectively, given that it also struggles with frigates.

[vvvvvvvv]

also perform fine as long as they are constantly moving and strafing.

They don't. Large destroyer cannot keep with Xenon mosquitoes. Basically try to dispatch S/M xenon swarm with main gun only. Hyperion is perfectly capable of doing that. Syn will be reliant on turrets.

Also I think that there shouldn't be a balance. Some ships should be better and more powerful. The point is learning how to utilize the rest of them to defeat the better ships. Balance these days seems to be aiming at making every ship feel the same.

I believe most frigates are at least twice as agile as the Hyperion,

Frigates normally cannot dispatch PEs at the same speed Hyperion can and their weapons have much shorter range unless you mod them to death or install railguns which will not be gimballed. Hyperion main gun is 7.3 kilometers. It is literally a flyswatter against swarms. There can be, of course, some extra strategy I'm not aware of, but basically in terms of firepower it seems to be superior to any frigate I've flown. Oh, right. It is also a very fast projectile. 3.333 km/s. Because paranids make a point to demonstrate their love of 3s.

[Raptor34]

Oh, right. It is also a very fast projectile. 3.333 km/s. Because paranids make a point to demonstrate their love of 3s.

Considering the bottom turrets are left right so you can't change one set without breaking symmetry, they should have made the whole bottom one set of turrets so you get 3 turret sets.

Another note, ever since I saw it's gun placement it's always felt unbalanced to me, with all of them being up top, should have had 3 sets where 2 of them are in the current positions and the last set is at the bottom thing. Though I wonder if that would affect anything gameplay wise.

[GCU Grey Area]

I believe most frigates are at least twice as agile as the Hyperion, as it remains larger and slower than them. This could also explain why the AI struggles to utilize it effectively, given that it also struggles with frigates.

That is true, however for me at least Hyperion falls well within my tolerance for handling, whereas destroyers most certainly don't. Have to mod destroyers with Whirlygig just to get them anywhere near the point where I can enjoy flying them. Even then it's always a relief to fly something smaller & more agile afterwards, when I no longer need the firepower.

In comparison handling of unmodded Hyperion is more than acceptable for me & it really comes alive when you stick Whirlygig on it. This is why my personal assessment is heavy frigate, rather than light destroyer. Ultimately though it is it's own thing, a hybrid jack of all trades somewhere in the middle, that very much hits the sweetspot for me with regards to destroyer level firepower on a platform which feels far more like a frigate to fly.

As for AI use I'm sure I can find a role for it in my fleets. Did after all manage to find a use for frigates in my previous games. However at present I don't have a fleet or more than 1 Hyperion. Currently playing the new Uncocooned start & I'm nowhere near that stage of the game.

[LameFox]

Pretty sure the reason the AI struggles to use it is because they treat it like a normal destroyer, and it's made of glass. IMO this kind of ship should probably have attack runs similar to lighter vessels, to give it time out of brawling with heavier ships.

[alt3rn1ty]

I'm not sure about the Hyp needing more speed (I have tried the Split all round for best speed, but also Tried Terran for quicker Travel drive .. Right now I have the Argon engine for better boost under the new Flight model).

It really could do with better Hull/Shields. That one engine is really vulnerable to fighters, so I think it could do with a bit more survivability while it is limping around/dead in space. I am in BUC space a lot these days, but had to send the Hyperion somewhere safe and jumped back in a Kuraokami. The Hyp really cant handle much with an NPC pilot, and with me flying it I just dont feel as safe as when I am in my favourite Yaki M ship.

[Targ Collective]

I do have a gripe with the Hyperion, it's more expensive than a Destroyer, and that price has the Hyperion main batteries to blame. The Batteries should be expensive, but the price should account for the fact that they are bought in groups. Without the batteries the Hyperion and Oddy compare as one would expect, the Oddy is higher priced. It's the price of the batteries.

The Hyperion main batteries respond very well to overheating so the Hyperion makes an excellent stationcracker, if the station has a range disadvantage. If the station has range to shoot back then you should lead with a fighter squadron both to draw fire and to maybe disable a few subcomponents.

The Hyperion DLC is extremely well designed. You have to earn the Hyperion and should be able to right from the beginning of the game; you get a free Hyperion for a simple set of errands, although it is unmodded and without top tier equipment; you get several skilled pilots from the fighters you are given - one with the free Hyperion, one with the original - if you're siding with HOP or PAR then you can take it into account.

You can get a Hyperion as a starting ship for a simple questline, and a more established player can get one with mostly top tier mods.

The batteries are I think too expensive for the size class, given the Oddy has more firepower and range with two to the Hyperion's six. The Hyperion is a recent addition though and I think the balance is partly a reference to the fact that they are new at making these.

[flywlyx]

Also I think that there shouldn't be a balance. Some ships should be better and more powerful. The point is learning how to utilize the rest of them to defeat the better ships. Balance these days seems to be aiming at making every ship feel the same.

There are multiple ways to balance them, and simply copying and pasting stats is the worst approach.
Any ship in a player's hands can easily dominate AI-controlled ships, so I prefer considering balance from the AI's perspective.
Every ship in an AI fleet should have a distinct role that no other ship can outperform in its specific tactics.

Pretty sure the reason the AI struggles to use it is because they treat it like a normal destroyer, and it's made of glass. IMO this kind of ship should probably have attack runs similar to lighter vessels, to give it time out of brawling with heavier ships.

Then it will end up ramming Xenon I/K on a daily basis. Expecting a unique AI for every ship type is too much of a luxury for X4.

It really could do with better Hull/Shields. That one engine is really vulnerable to fighters, so I think it could do with a bit more survivability while it is limping around/dead in space. I am in BUC space a lot these days, but had to send the Hyperion somewhere safe and jumped back in a Kuraokami. The Hyp really cant handle much with an NPC pilot, and with me flying it I just dont feel as safe as when I am in my favourite Yaki M ship.

With more hull and shields, it essentially becomes just another destroyer.
In my view, it should have the ability to easily avoid engagements with destroyers. This is why it needs higher speed, allowing it to either wait for the main fleet or retreat when necessary.

[Targ Collective]

I've found a place for the Hyperion in my fleet, and while I agree that the Hyperion is too expensive for its durability if you want the AI to beat destroyers you can set it up for that - Heavy Cluster Missiles or Heavy Dumbfire Mk.II missiles can be specced to all turrets, and the Hyperion just needs there to be a couple of these ships per Destroyer. If you want to use them as cheaper missile armed mini-destroyers by forgoeing the main battery then that is also an option.

The Hyperion's niche depends on how you set it up. It's a heavy gunboat with eight M turret mounts, it's a missile frigate, it's a stationcracker. It is held back by low shielding, enabled by high mobility and the option of missiles, balanced by expensive batteries. The metagame for this ship mostly focuses on the armament - will you pay for all the main batteries? Will you use missiles? If you choose energy weapons, is it an anticapital or antifighter loadout you want to use? All these options make it about more than just the hull.

Best in class shielding is definitely Terran, but engines could be Terran for travel drive activation time, Paranid for top speed, I understand the Argon lead the field in boost duration. If you want a long range capital killer then give it long range missiles and go all out.

Your concerns are valid, but I disagree that the ship has no role. I agree it is overpriced, and too overpriced, but in the control of the player and in a player owned fleet it can be configured for stationcracking, it can be configured for antifighter, it can be configured for longrange anticapital, and you don't have to use missiles if that isn't your preference.

The NPC AI tends to use randomised loadouts based on economy and availability, but what loadouts are used is a different can of worms and unless modding the game it is the Devteam's can. That the AI does not always use optimal loadout is I think mostly by design to protect new players learning the game's strengths and weaknesses, but missiles/no missiles capital/antifighter full main battery/partial or no batteries would be excellent things to consider for modders.

[Raptor34]

I've found a place for the Hyperion in my fleet, and while I agree that the Hyperion is too expensive for its durability if you want the AI to beat destroyers you can set it up for that - Heavy Cluster Missiles or Heavy Dumbfire Mk.II missiles can be specced to all turrets, and the Hyperion just needs there to be a couple of these ships per Destroyer. If you want to use them as cheaper missile armed mini-destroyers by forgoeing the main battery then that is also an option.

What are good OOS missiles anyway? I've set up rearmament stations already, so I think it's time to get into the missile game in a big way. If there are guided options, even better.
Actually would it work better without main guns? I'm not actually sure whether there's any difference in what the AI does between missile turrets only vs. those + main guns.

[Targ Collective]

Missiles are fired less frequently OOS but remain a solid choice for defence platforms because of how many turrets those things can have. The primary advantages of turrets are tracking, damage and range, at the cost of ammo - generally speaking tracking costs damage and range. The Hyperion, with absent or disabled main batteries, and equipped with Dumbfire Mk II missiles, and in number, would be able to take destroyers out before within main battery range. This could be countered by the destroyer having missiles of its own, and beams set to missile defense would be one of the best possible counters.

Hyperion missile boats remain a ridiculously expensive anticapital solution, but still a viable one. The hyperion has a role, as I say - a mini destroyer that can also act as a heavy missile gunboat. No other ship can do that yet.

[Raptor34]

Missiles are fired less frequently OOS but remain a solid choice for defence platforms because of how many turrets those things can have. The primary advantages of turrets are tracking, damage and range, at the cost of ammo - generally speaking tracking costs damage and range. The Hyperion, with absent or disabled main batteries, and equipped with Dumbfire Mk II missiles, and in number, would be able to take destroyers out before within main battery range. This could be countered by the destroyer having missiles of its own, and beams set to missile defense would be one of the best possible counters.

Hyperion missile boats remain a ridiculously expensive anticapital solution, but still a viable one. The hyperion has a role, as I say - a mini destroyer that can also act as a heavy missile gunboat. No other ship can do that yet.

Well, cost is not a factor anyway. Probably. I'm actually short of shield components and field coils atm building those damned Rorquals. So perhaps Hyps would be cheaper in that sense.
Also their primary targets are Xenon gate camping so... I'll give it a shot with Sapporo flag, 10 Hyp with heavy dumbfires and 10 Hyp with light smart. Then back them up with 20-30 Takobas running interference and see how it goes.
What I'm worried about is how does auto replenishment work. I've heard stories about the AI just loading random dumb shit in depending on your setting, so I'm wondering if I just load a single type whether they'll be smart about it.

[Targ Collective]

In that I have bad news. M turrets always load Light missiles on automatic resupply, in spite of being perfectly able to shoot heavy missiles. If you run out of missiles then it reverts to default types - Mk 1 Guided or Dumbfire missiles. I've suggested that a ship's loadout imprint on the ship from when it is made and then resupplied as a resupply specific trade order but it is up to the Devteam if they want to do that.

The primary difficulty is cost and docks. Hyperions are expensive and need to be used in groups, so each needs to dock and then undock with the resupply ship one at a time. More resupply ships gives more materials and docks, and you'll use those materials for missiles anyway, so have a few resupply ships and whatever you do use Terran or Closed Loop resupply methods because that gives the best conversion of resource pool to missiles.

Typically they will resupply when they have nothing else to do. In a fleet of 20 Hyperions, 5 Honshus will be able to resupply them in four dock-undock loops. Ten would need two. Resupply ships make excellent drone carriers and can also resupply and dock M and S class vessels.

Hyperions *can* resupply fighters, but I'm not sure if the AI to do so automatically is switched on yet, it might be disabled with the Get Supplies command. Ammo based fighters can extend their missile reach a bit.

Optimum play is to have an equipment dock and trade station, then extend trade coverage, and if you need to do a mass refit you can use a station dock. If you value being able to play around with different equipment or having deep resupply reserves then a backup station is crucial. But resupply for L and XL ships needs one dock-undock loop for each L and XL ship in the fleet for each resupply ship. Don't expect one to scale up well. Instead use a group, with escort, and you might want them holding position somewhere safe if you have troubles protecting them.

[Raptor34]

Well, it's an EQ dock so I'm not worried about supplies. Though previously I was expecting to reload M frigates instead so I didn't put that many L maint bays...
I'll need to rethink this then, the issue with not being able to load the desired missile type is troubling. Well, not just troubling here tbf, but also for my other missile boat plans. Probably do a test run with minimal ships while leaving the old fleets in place and see how missile resupply goes. Maybe I'll be lucky and something changed.

[Targ Collective]

Dumbfire missiles specialise in damage and range but are not as accurate. Optimum play for range is Dumbfire mk II missiles. Dumbfires are the better choice for capitals.

If you really want to use missiles against fighters, then accuracy and firepower are best achieved though Light Swarm Missiles. You'll want to use tracking for fighters and light missiles, swarm uses multi-warhead targeting which translates into countermeasure resistance scaling up with damage scaling up as well.

The Hyperions need a range advantage but Cluster Missiles, if using a lot of them, improve the damage threshold quite significantly at the cost of range. It's better range than the Hyperion Batteries by 10 km and outranges the main batteries of all the destroyers.

The Hyperion isn't a real destroyer but if you scale them up they can be decent stationcrackers and it should be treated as a super gunboat with missiles if given no main batteries, and a particularly expensive light destroyer if you do what I do and equip the best of everything. Be advised that resupplying antifighter ops with missiles will be held back by both supplies and docktime so you will need to scale up resupply vessels if you intend to utilise Hyperions in large numbers with a missile loadout. They're mobile and can be used in groups so you might want one or two turret groups taking ammoless weapons so you have a backup plan for when the ammo runs out, or do what I do and reserve long-range ammo just for anticapital work.

[LameFox]

Then it will end up ramming Xenon I/K on a daily basis. Expecting a unique AI for every ship type is too much of a luxury for X4.

The ramming is an issue, but one they might get around to fixing eventually, like destroyers staying at range. But if every L ship approaches battle by sitting still and acting like a durable artillery platform, lighter, more mobile ones will simply never have any use outside of personal player ship.

[flywlyx]

The ramming is an issue, but one they might get around to fixing eventually, like destroyers staying at range. But if every L ship approaches battle by sitting still and acting like a durable artillery platform, lighter, more mobile ones will simply never have any use outside of personal player ship.

You can check the low-attention combat—the AI script itself is quite agile. The issue arises in high-attention situations.They need to first align the performance between high-attention and low-attention combat.

[alt3rn1ty]

It really could do with better Hull/Shields. That one engine is really vulnerable to fighters, so I think it could do with a bit more survivability while it is limping around/dead in space. I am in BUC space a lot these days, but had to send the Hyperion somewhere safe and jumped back in a Kuraokami. The Hyp really cant handle much with an NPC pilot, and with me flying it I just dont feel as safe as when I am in my favourite Yaki M ship.

With more hull and shields, it essentially becomes just another destroyer.
In my view, it should have the ability to easily avoid engagements with destroyers. This is why it needs higher speed, allowing it to either wait for the main fleet or retreat when necessary.

Yep I get that, with the new flight model I tried it with Split all round engine for the best speed, then tried it with Terran All round engine for best Travel drive activation .. I finally settled for Argon All round engine for best Boost. Then applied a few different mods, tried Slingshot, but this ship really needs Whirlygig to improve its manoeuverability which I rolled to have an additional bonus of 15% to thrust aswell as 45% on the other two. Also having a good roll of Nanotube -69 Drag -68 Mass.

I think thats about the best we can do with what the game gives us right now, to make anything better needs the devs to increase its speed, question is will they?
Meanwhile, I still feel unsafe in the Hyperion, so due to this it falls short of being my day to day ship, even with Targe or Traction mods on the shields.

I have a feeling there is something funky with this ships shielding at the moment, cant nail it but sometimes they just dont survive as well as I think they should.

Its been mentioned by someone else already, but I think it will be useful for taking down stations, so long as we have something in the fleet that can swat all the drones / fighters before they get up the Hyperions rear.

[LameFox]

The ramming is an issue, but one they might get around to fixing eventually, like destroyers staying at range. But if every L ship approaches battle by sitting still and acting like a durable artillery platform, lighter, more mobile ones will simply never have any use outside of personal player ship.

You can check the low-attention combat—the AI script itself is quite agile. The issue arises in high-attention situations.They need to first align the performance between high-attention and low-attention combat.

Even if they did, I don't think L ships in low attention move in and out of range the way S/M on an attack run would. Not on purpose anyway, and I'd be kind of annoyed with most of them if they did. For most the critical thing to improve is time with weapons on target. Like if you have an inbound K you don't want your ship going in and out trying to do attack runs because it will simply be deleted. The ideal is for it to have all its main guns and as many turrets as possible slinging fire at the target from as early as it can.

But the Hyperion is agile and made of glass. I don't want it to sit and facetank anything. It has the potential to approach, fire, and back off to regen shields the way a smaller ship (ideally) would.

At this point I also have no particular reason to believe they are even close to making their ships fly like they appear to on the map. M ship AI needs some tweaking, but it at least broadly does the thing I'm describing, in high attention. Mostly it just needs to learn to pull away sooner.