LameFox wrote: ↑Mon, 24. Feb 25, 17:33
I mean lately they are losing ground well before I've done anything as grand as create TRI. The ones in the south-east are often the second to go, after Atiya's. I guess I could set up a budgeted start where TRI already exists, TER is fighting ARG/ANT/BOR, and ZYA has eaten a chunk of FRF, and then maybe it would be more stable to begin with. But it also would not really resolve how weak they are, exactly, just weaken everyone else—and I'd always have to be careful not to help them too much.
Adding some way to return them to a game does seem ideal, be it via the "crisis" or something else. At least then the long stretches of poor balance wouldn't be as bad, but, I'd still rather they do something to make them a bit more durable from the outset.
I did this.
TRI is pummeling ANT and TEL areas.
Faulty logic and Atiays has also fallen to TRI.
TER is also taking a big part of ANT down.
(Version 7.10)
LameFox wrote: ↑Thu, 6. Mar 25, 06:09Another player trying to keep their Xenon alive. If I had reddit I'd warn them that while they wait for Dal to call, their newly spawned TRI will dump its starting resources into fighting its only nearby enemy... Xenon.
This is actually why I almost always choose the 'galaxy on fire' option when doing quest lines. The economy is designed to favour war, so allowing factions to combine actually creates less trade opportunities in the long-term as TRI etc. steamroll their way across sectors. This is why I'm very much looking forward to the diplomatic options that are planned, so we have some control over who is fighting who... Really what's needed is some form of consumer / consumption economy so that the whole economy doesn't rely so much on things being blown up. This might offer a more compelling reason to strive for peace in the galaxy though this will not help the Xenon, of course, as everyone will always be at war with them.
LameFox wrote: ↑Thu, 6. Mar 25, 06:09
Logistically I think the SE's dying in an attempt to reach stations is their biggest challenge right now. From what I've seen watching them before, although they do waste a lot of SE's trying to reach other clusters, these weren't critical to their operations in the cluster they were leaving. It seemed more like they were intended to reinforce clusters which had lost some? Hard to be sure of the underlying reasons for the order just by looking at them of course. If that's true though the behaviour should theoretically be helpful, but, well, they realistically don't have any chance of getting there. SE's do not have that kind of mobility, and will invariably be killed en-route. So maybe the behaviour is pointless and should be curtailed, or maybe SE's ought to be faster ships, or something.
But when some destroyers attack a defence platform, and all their SE's in that cluster rush over to resupply it so it can repair lost modules or something—that absolutely ruins their local economy. One single siege can be a setback they never fully recover from. This seems to be a big part of what does in the Atiya's cluster in every game I started.
Perhaps this should be point 1(c) in my summary... SE units rush to their deaths on mass! In fact, let me add that now... haha. But, yes, I agree this behaviour certainly complicates the Xenon's logistical challenges.
Y-llian wrote: ↑Thu, 6. Mar 25, 01:56
I share the frustration, Raptor. It’s also annoying when you see Xenon logistics units in highways full knowing they’re never going to reach their destination.
Myself and others have suggested solutions over the years, including permitting the Xenon to move ships between their clusters (without having to cross the galaxy) so they can function better as a whole. I’m sure we can find a reasonable lore reason to support such a mechanic.
They do slip through in my saves. Then again I set my gate camps to honorable so they ignore civilian ships for that so...
That means no free SEs though, while I can have an entire fleet of PEs by now. So many I stopped bothering to claim them.
But the issue is obviously they slip through once, then they go off to do god knows what and now they need to roll the dice again.
Raptor34 wrote: ↑Thu, 6. Mar 25, 13:09
They do slip through in my saves. Then again I set my gate camps to honorable so they ignore civilian ships for that so...
That means no free SEs though, while I can have an entire fleet of PEs by now. So many I stopped bothering to claim them.
But the issue is obviously they slip through once, then they go off to do god knows what and now they need to roll the dice again.
I have an observation about that.
My Yaki do trade. You do know what has to happen before that is true. Nevertheless, XEN still had a plot in SS1 when the change did happen. That plot did complete into Defense Platform and XEN thus did reclaim SS1. With sector of their own, they did create more plots. For Yard, Wharf, factory, etc.
Some 6-8 SE Miners and couple Power SE have slipped through; from Hewa's Twin to SS1. The Miners did fill the plots with Ore and Silicon and do now sit idle as they have nothing to do (for now). The Power SE do sit idle too. If they came with any energy, they have delivered it. Even the nearest XEN SPP is far away from SS1. Too far for the normal trader logic. So the Power SS do nothing, because they can do only nothing.
No power => no SPP => no power. (Besides, what are the chances that energy delivery goes to the SPP plot?)
The first point is affirmation: the SE can slip through (NPC) blockades once on a blue moon. I've watched Odysseus that was parked at Gate/Superhighway. It did catch every single Se, including bypassers -- the blue moons are rare.
The second point is that a SE that has migrated from one pocket to another may not necessarily continue to migrate elsewhere. Perhaps their jobs get "designated operating zone"?
All I can do now is either get lucky with more, loaded, migrators, or see that XEN expands from elsewhere, closer to SS1.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Raptor34 wrote: ↑Thu, 6. Mar 25, 13:09
They do slip through in my saves. Then again I set my gate camps to honorable so they ignore civilian ships for that so...
That means no free SEs though, while I can have an entire fleet of PEs by now. So many I stopped bothering to claim them.
But the issue is obviously they slip through once, then they go off to do god knows what and now they need to roll the dice again.
I have an observation about that.
My Yaki do trade. You do know what has to happen before that is true. Nevertheless, XEN still had a plot in SS1 when the change did happen. That plot did complete into Defense Platform and XEN thus did reclaim SS1. With sector of their own, they did create more plots. For Yard, Wharf, factory, etc.
Some 6-8 SE Miners and couple Power SE have slipped through; from Hewa's Twin to SS1. The Miners did fill the plots with Ore and Silicon and do now sit idle as they have nothing to do (for now). The Power SE do sit idle too. If they came with any energy, they have delivered it. Even the nearest XEN SPP is far away from SS1. Too far for the normal trader logic. So the Power SS do nothing, because they can do only nothing.
No power => no SPP => no power. (Besides, what are the chances that energy delivery goes to the SPP plot?)
The first point is affirmation: the SE can slip through (NPC) blockades once on a blue moon. I've watched Odysseus that was parked at Gate/Superhighway. It did catch every single Se, including bypassers -- the blue moons are rare.
The second point is that a SE that has migrated from one pocket to another may not necessarily continue to migrate elsewhere. Perhaps their jobs get "designated operating zone"?
All I can do now is either get lucky with more, loaded, migrators, or see that XEN expands from elsewhere, closer to SS1.
Well, I did also notice several logistics ships sitting around doing nothing... Perhaps I was wrong, and maybe that lone miner was just off the grid. While I covered the area with adv sats, it's not complete, maybe they are just mining somewhere off. I think we've all seen our own miners mining in the middle of god knows where.
No excuses for that cluster not having a SPP though. Not sure what that is about tbh. But unless the inner sector, the one with all the resources and in a dead end, didn't actually start with an SPP and instead it was in the border sector... But that just means the starting algos need to be tweaked. Though also tbf this save started at CoH so maybe it's resolved now.
I stopped playing my several years old save in 7.0 after having the problem described here. The main problem seems to be ressource distribution by Xenon ships so that neither stations get built up nor that yards can build new ships. There is a lengthy discussion about this here: viewtopic.php?t=455267
Now, with 7.5 I resumed playing my game, and the Xenon are doing better. They are finally building up the stations and even reclaimed a sector I emptied for them. So, something was definitely improved.
However:
1. After the initial phase, they are stalling again. Especially so since the Terrans are regularily sending an Asgard led intervention force and wipe all Xenon ships out.
2. Maybe I am seeing things, but it seems that Xenon are better in high attention, for example when I use the live stream. Might have to do with the firing ranges of weapons. It seems to be very tight regarding reach/hit or miss, so a 3D simulated match might make a difference when parts of the ships are actually hit.
I really do not want to start over or mod the game, but Xenon are the spice of it, so please make them somewhat smarter. Or make it an option within the game settings...?
Harpya wrote: ↑Fri, 7. Mar 25, 15:03
2. Maybe I am seeing things, but it seems that Xenon are better in high attention, for example when I use the live stream. Might have to do with the firing ranges of weapons. It seems to be very tight regarding reach/hit or miss, so a 3D simulated match might make a difference when parts of the ships are actually hit.
I notice that as well. I think in low-attention vs fighters Xenon turrets get stripped easier (this is often a state I find them in) and vs destroyers, well, those are just less likely to fire their main guns in high-attention.
Harpya wrote: ↑Fri, 7. Mar 25, 15:03
2. Maybe I am seeing things, but it seems that Xenon are better in high attention, for example when I use the live stream. Might have to do with the firing ranges of weapons. It seems to be very tight regarding reach/hit or miss, so a 3D simulated match might make a difference when parts of the ships are actually hit.
The biggest issue is that the AI doesn't know how to use its weapons effectively in high-attention scenarios, which accounts for more than 50% of their potential damage. As a result, the Xenon can easily pick them off one by one.
Example: HIgh attention vs Low attention
I'd wiped them out before I got timelines, but now, even though there are a couple of new shipyards, the only way I can keep them alive has been to download a cheat package and change the faction settings of all attacking ships. Moo-Kye's Revenge is now crawling with Xenon, but 90% of them are converted faction ships, since the shipyard and wharf don't seem to produce ships (even though I artificially filled them).
Some observations after returning to 7.5 with my 7.10 save, where I have two disconnected Xenon pockets that are each several sectors wide and should be self sufficient - one in the north and one in the southeast :
- Xenon stations are finally being built up, alas slowly. The number of miners/trades being sent across the map (where they are always destroyed) has been reduced, some now do the task at hand, supplying the build site. That is a huge improvement.
- However, Xenon military ships are not protecting the build sites. They are all over the sector, sometimes even nearby, but it is pure luck if they engage in the few fighters that otherwise take down the whole station.
- To make them a threat again, I still need to babysit for them to grow back, by:
-- 1. blocking the wharfs (sending L and XL ships there to be refitted and then park them there), so that the others cant rebuild destroyers.
-- 2. going in high attention (live stream) whenever Ks are fighting other destroyers. Only than can they win.
What would be needed?
--> Have Xenon focus on the task at hand. When they build a defense station, let the fleet protect that site until it is done. This alone would make a big difference.
--> Further reduce transporter traffic across the map having them destroyed. With player owned ships you can set maximum jump distance. Why not do this with Xenon transporters/miners?
Harpya wrote: ↑Sun, 9. Mar 25, 17:05
What would be needed?
--> Have Xenon focus on the task at hand. When they build a defense station, let the fleet protect that site until it is done. This alone would make a big difference.
Harpya wrote: ↑Sun, 9. Mar 25, 17:05
What would be needed?
--> Have Xenon focus on the task at hand. When they build a defense station, let the fleet protect that site until it is done. This alone would make a big difference.
I am just starting to observe this. As I wrote above, my Xenon renaissance only has a chance when I block all faction shipyards, so that they cannot build any new destroyers.
--> So, with these threads in the forum it *seems* that the problem is solvable: adjust defense station turrets like it is debated in the linked thread above, and fix job priorization for the Xenon.
Recent game 7.5 done literally next to nothing other than a bit of crystal farming and a few Space weed deliveries and already faulty logic is Parinid, the Teladi are moving into the Matrix 451 and surprisingly even Emperors pride is turning Parinid.
Seems the opinion on the X Foundations forum on facebook echo this sentiment, making the mid-end game Xenon-less and very boring.
An Analogy ' First Avengers movie, Nick Fury spending time to get the Avengers together to take on a world-ending threat, half way through getting the team together he's told "Hi Nick, that team you were getting together, well... no need of them now thanks, we've already beaten Loki and his army"
I'm not asking for a 'Xenon hell' type game, just a credible threat to have as an End Game goal - At the moment the Xenon have all the power and threat of Millhouse from the Simprons.
My observations on why Xenon are failing mid- to late-game:
Reason #1: They don't have enough ships
Almost every mod that attempts to buff Xenon does the same thing: adds more Xenon fleets to the universe. At this stage, most factions have good economy, most likely with some help of the player, and pump out ships like crazy. Today I noticed a VIG super-fleet roaming Hatikvah Choice I, and it looked menacing just from the map view. So yeah, Xenon simply need more ships at this stage, and in every cluster they own.
This one you can fix with mods, lots of options: Xenon Jobs+, Foundation of Conquest and War, Xenon Hell (I made my own edit, leaving jobs.xml tweaks only), Larger Xenon Fleets, and maybe some more I've missed.
Reason #2: They are too passive with those fleets they have
Most Xenon fleets are just chilling in space, and not doing much. Easy to confirm by placing enough Advanced Satellites in key areas. They take their time, enjoying beautiful views of their sectors while sipping on a cup of an AGI tea. Isn't that something we'd all love to do?
Have not seen any mods that fix this, can probably be accomplished with editing scripts? But that's a tough one to implement, I suppose.
Reason #3: Their economy is TRASHED at this point
This reason should be #1 on the list. Actually, if this one gets fixed, #1 and #2 might become irrelevant.
Most Xenon clusters in my game at this stage were... empty. A lone wharf, a lone shipyard, and that's it. Why? These wharfs and shipyards storages were EMPTY, and there were no miners / energy traders to bring in Cells, Ore and Silicon. At some point, they've built their last ships, these were destroyed by an odd TEL patrol, end of story.
Which brings us to the topic of miners. Every Xenon miner faces a tough choice at some point:
A) peacefully gather resources in Xenon owned sectors or
B) go on a suicide mission across the whole galaxy to do some mining near an enemy defense station or
C) bring building materials to a defense platform strategically placed in the center of a busy ZYA sector
For an unknown reason, A) is not a popular option these days.
And over time, these brave choices lead to a rapid decline in miners population, starvation of resources and collapse of Xenon economy.
What is worse, I am not sure if this is fixable with mods at all. For now, I use Cheat Menu to periodically refill ship building resources for Xenon wharfs and shipyards. Along with the Cheaper Ships for Xenon mod, this seems to do the trick.
vkolosov wrote: ↑Sun, 16. Mar 25, 22:55
What is worse, I am not sure if this is fixable with mods at all. For now, I use Cheat Menu to periodically refill ship building resources for Xenon wharfs and shipyards. Along with the Cheaper Ships for Xenon mod, this seems to do the trick.
I have heard another player praise reemergence mod, which buffs xenon up. Eventually at some point they'll start winning, unless player helps. So it should be fixable.
Another possibility is that given there's Xenon H, why not let them and the player use it as an L miner. Even though it has less cargo than Wyvern.
vkolosov wrote: ↑Sun, 16. Mar 25, 22:55
Which brings us to the topic of miners. Every Xenon miner faces a tough choice at some point:
A) peacefully gather resources in Xenon owned sectors or
B) go on a suicide mission across the whole galaxy to do some mining near an enemy defense station or
C) bring building materials to a defense platform strategically placed in the center of a busy ZYA sector
For an unknown reason, A) is not a popular option these days.
And over time, these brave choices lead to a rapid decline in miners population, starvation of resources and collapse of Xenon economy.
What is worse, I am not sure if this is fixable with mods at all. For now, I use Cheat Menu to periodically refill ship building resources for Xenon wharfs and shipyards. Along with the Cheaper Ships for Xenon mod, this seems to do the trick.
Part of the reason this happens is that faction AI is not good with disconnected territories. XEN build miners in cluster A to go help mine in cluster B, sending them unaccompanied through the entire Community of Planets with predictable results.
This is why the suggestion of splitting up Xenon into different 'branches'/factions under the hood (one for each starting cluster) periodically comes up as a sort of hacky way to circumvent these problems.
Factions not defending build sites in hostile territory is another issue.
adeine wrote: ↑Mon, 17. Mar 25, 01:18
Part of the reason this happens is that faction AI is not good with disconnected territories. XEN build miners in cluster A to go help mine in cluster B, sending them unaccompanied through the entire Community of Planets with predictable results.
This is why the suggestion of splitting up Xenon into different 'branches'/factions under the hood (one for each starting cluster) periodically comes up as a sort of hacky way to circumvent these problems.
Factions not defending build sites in hostile territory is another issue.
I don't think they would need to be divided up to stop that. As far as I can tell their SE's are already split into those that will do this, and those that won't. At least if I interpreted those entries correctly. The behaviour seems to be intentional.
And if it weren't, them being different factions may not stop it anyway, at least provided they were allied. After all allied ships wander into each other's territory to trade all the time.
