How about a boost gauge separate from shields? Or a mod for this...

[af_2017]

It seems fair to say speed boost from shield was once available as a mod and maybe this explains where egosoft got the idea.

So seems modder has gone easy way: instead of adding new capacitor for boost he just used shields.
But I think egosoft could have done a better job (boost from shields is obviously bad idea for combat ship) introducing separate capacitor.
I find this hilarious.

[surferx]

Just keep removing the challenges from the game and it will eventually become boring/unplayable. Separate boost from shields, then somebody will ask: make the shields remain at 100% even when being shot. There are many ways to make the game easier. I don't want a boring easy game.

[vvvvvvvv]

Find an opportunity cost far less compelling that having real & immediate consequences for using boosters. Thoroughly enjoy having to constantly evaluate whether the situation is one in which it's best to maintain shields or exchange some or all of them for a sudden burst of speed.

For me, it doesn't really ever happen in the game. That's the issue. Fights are usually won with overwhelming firepower, where boost does not matter. Because boost is tied to shields, it would mean I'd simply prefer shield, do not bother with boost, and when I need to escape, I'll be using travel drive instead. It is the same as not having boost. Same goes for turrets. "Boost denial" simply almost never happens. So I have not experienced this mechanic having ANY positive effect. I view it exclusively as a strange decision with no positive consequences.

You mentioned you haven't played Elite Dangerous, you should definitely give it a try. See if you have a friend willing to lend you a modded ship, then try fighting in a Res sites. Then compare it to x4 combat experience.

For the record, separate gauges would also solve issues of Split. Which keep dying because their shields are paper-thin, and in their fast ships boost is tied to weak shields.

[MKL81]

Just keep removing the challenges from the game and it will eventually become boring/unplayable. Separate boost from shields, then somebody will ask: make the shields remain at 100% even when being shot. There are many ways to make the game easier. I don't want a boring easy game.

That's nonsense, there are multiple games with different mechanics that provide even more engaging and challenging combat. Elite Dangerous or Everspace 2, just to name those as examples.

[GCU Grey Area]

For the record, separate gauges would also solve issues of Split. Which keep dying because their shields are paper-thin, and in their fast ships boost is tied to weak shields.

Split DLC was when I first started using this approach, after persuading a Zyarth pilot to bail out of his Cobra. Frigates have always been my favourite ship class - they can carry more torpedoes than any other ship & the S dock makes them exceptionally versatile for generic/guild missions (I typically carry an S miner). Downside of frigates is that due to their bulk they're bullet magnets & Cobra in particular has substantially weaker shields & fewer drones to use as a distraction than it's counterparts. Needed a new approach to use the ship effectively (preferably one which didn't result in Game Over quite so often) & found that if I boosted towards enemies I took a lot less fire, which more than made up for shields lost due to boost. Also found it was a hell of a lot more fun than plodding around the battlefield at conventional speeds.

[Mr_Blastman]

Just keep removing the challenges from the game and it will eventually become boring/unplayable. Separate boost from shields, then somebody will ask: make the shields remain at 100% even when being shot. There are many ways to make the game easier. I don't want a boring easy game.

This isn't about making the game easier, this is about removing a flawed concept and replacing it with a better one that is accepted by literally almost every other space game in existence.

There's a reason boost doesn't drain shields in those games.

And they aren't "easier."

They are quite challenging, actually.

Some of us, with our multibillion empire, would love to just be a fighter pilot for a while. Having boost separate from shields could open up many gameplay opportunities not present. It would also remove a mechanic that as seen in this thread, is abused by some players because of dumb decisions the AI makes.

[vvvvvvvv]

For the record, separate gauges would also solve issues of Split. Which keep dying because their shields are paper-thin, and in their fast ships boost is tied to weak shields.

Split DLC was when I first started using this approach, after persuading a Zyarth pilot to bail out of his Cobra. Frigates have always been my favourite ship class - they can carry more torpedoes than any other ship & the S dock makes them exceptionally versatile for generic/guild missions (I typically carry an S miner). Downside of frigates is that due to their bulk they're bullet magnets & Cobra in particular has substantially weaker shields & fewer drones to use as a distraction than it's counterparts. Needed a new approach to use the ship effectively (preferably one which didn't result in Game Over quite so often) & found that if I boosted towards enemies I took a lot less fire, which more than made up for shields lost due to boost. Also found it was a hell of a lot more fun than plodding around the battlefield at conventional speeds.

Oh, sure, flying towards the enemy saves you from fire, but the idea of tying boost to shields is still doesn't make sense. This is probably the only game in existence that does this.

Regarding conventional speeds, ship mods help. My player ship right now is cobra. 1160 m/s forward speed, boost and travel mode 8 km/s. Primary use of boost is reaching travel speed faster.

[GCU Grey Area]

Oh, sure, flying towards the enemy saves you from fire, but the idea of tying boost to shields is still doesn't make sense. This is probably the only game in existence that does this.

It's often not just the enemy you're flying towards, it's the howling mob of it's friends behind you that's the bigger problem if you're only moving at conventional speeds. At boost you can often outrun not just those ships but the bullets that they're firing at you too...
As for making sense, it does for me. From a gameplay perspective I enjoy the need to balance speed v shields, depending on current need. Meanwhile, from a practical perspective the power's got to come from somewhere. Draining engines to power boosters would make no sense whatsoever, would not want to drain weapons because I'll need them to shoot when I've closed the distance, which just leaves shields.

Regarding conventional speeds, ship mods help. My player ship right now is cobra. 1160 m/s forward speed, boost and travel mode 8 km/s. Primary use of boost is reaching travel speed faster.

Nice! However, my Cobra wasn't quite like that when I got it. Very early game, no HQ, no ship mods, distinctly mediocre loadout, not much money to change it & an FRF wharf with significant supply problems to resolve before I could. Had ZYA as my main enemy faction & a lot of their ships could outrun it if I kept to conventional speed. Heavy use of boost was pretty much the only way I could survive encounters with their ships. It was a learning experience to say the least, but that has proved invaluable in subsequent games.

[vvvvvvvv]

Meanwhile, from a practical perspective the power's got to come from somewhere. Draining engines to

(-_-)
It would come from a capacitator. A separate capacitator for boost. A rechargeable gauge represents a capacitator. An actual device. Which can slowly accumulate power then quickly release it.

Elite has somewhat complex system for that. There you can divert power to systems. To Weapons, To Engines, To Shield. Each system has 4 "pips" where the system only functions at maximum efficiency if it uses 4/4 pips. Adding more power to one system, removes same amount of another. However, for 3 systems, there are 6 pips available. Meaning you either have everything running at 2/4, or only one system is 4/4 and the rest are 1/4. Shield regeneration in elite is SLOW. It takes huge amount of t ime, and while ship is regenerating, you do not have a working shield until it hits something like 50%. If engine gauge is not getting enough power, then boost does not regenerate. If weapons are not getting enough power, they'll quickly stop firing, etc. You can also finetune both capacity of individual gauge and regeneration speed.

I can't say that power management in Elite is interesting. Diverting energy back and forth all the t ime, chances are the system is there to encourage multiplayer, as having a friend can g rant extra pip (I think). But it does use separate gauges.

The logic is simple: Boost and shields are power hungry systems, and eat more than your ship powerplant can provide. But they do not need all that power all the time, and only sometimes demand bursts. Those bursts come from capacitors, which allow the ship to consume more than power plant produces... for a while. And physically, those capacitors map to... gauges. Shield gauge and boost gauge, in case of Elite - separate from each other.

[Submarine]

Elite does not have to model as many ships in a playfield. The more compllicated the ship energy model the more compute required for each ship to play the game. In X4 that is the entire universe full of ships OOS and IS during a battle it could be hundreds. Things are tricky enough in that department already, rewriting the specification to adjust boost is not practical as it could have unexpected ramifications and unlikely due to divided player opinion. I think large adjustments of the boost model are only likely to happen between X versions i.e. X4 -> X5.

The best outcome for X4 is egosoft hone the mechanic they set out to create in the first place. The AI needs programming to use boost better, by someone with AI knowhow. AI specialists really can make a big difference to games. I remember when Sorian first arrived on the scene and adjusted Forged Alliance AI and the results were spectacular, night and day.

Player controls, which can adjust and retain boost settings for ships, fleets, subfleets are desperately needed.

Finally expose boost mechanics to modders, also boost controls and AI boost behaviour, so mods can experiment and provide different options.

[jlehtone]

Oh, sure, flying towards the enemy saves you from fire, but the idea of tying boost to shields is still doesn't make sense. This is probably the only game in existence that does this.

Elite has somewhat complex system for that. There you can divert power to systems.

Didn't SW: X-Wing have that too? Diverting power is a trope.

What X4 has (unique?) is that it can transfer all energy from shields to engines, and it does not allow transfer when shields are empty. We have thus two sets of thrusters. The cruise thrusters get power directly from the power core. The boost thrusters get power only from the shields.

Meanwhile, from a practical perspective the power's got to come from somewhere.

It would come from a capacitator. A separate capacitator for boost. A rechargeable gauge represents a capacitator. An actual device. Which can slowly accumulate power then quickly release it.

And shields are the capacitator in the current game.

This (actual device) could be the answer to many prayers.

Optional boost capacitator ship upgrade. When installed, it recharges and powers the boost. When not installed, boost takes power from shields. The device should have mass, which affects speed and handling.

And then there could be a "null cap" model too; prevents all use of boost. Weightless.

[vvvvvvvv]

And shields are the capacitator in the current game.

And that is a complete nonsense, as you'd always want to keep those systems separate.

Basically, I highly recommend to anyone defending this strange decision to play elite dangerous combat. Probably need to play it for a bit. Then compare. Because like with VR, it is something you need to experience yourself, instead of trying to argue about it.

[jlehtone]

And shields are the capacitator in the current game.

And that is a complete nonsense, as you'd always want to keep those systems separate.

Well, if you are a manager or Split engineer, you do strip all "unnecessary redundancies" from your systems.
"The shields seem to hold some energy. Lets use that, rather than add an another capacitator to slow us down. Profit margins ..."


Nitro, methanol-water, etc -- when consumed -- do get more power from engine. So does War Emergency Power. These cannot be used all the time, because they wear out the engine. Afterburners do convert fuel to thrust. Both the injected enhancer and fuel are limited resources.

What is the excuse for the spaceship thrusters not doing full burn non-stop?

[vvvvvvvv]

Well, if you are a manager or Split engineer, you do strip all "unnecessary redundancies" from your systems.

So you remove shield and install largest boost capacitor you can find instead. "Go fast, hit hard".

What is the excuse for the spaceship thrusters not doing full burn non-stop?

They melt the ship. For example.

If you want to have a technically plausible excuse, then ships like those in x4 or Elite would still be using reaction mass, but in small amounts and with high speed, similar to ion drive. Stronger thrust would require more power, said power will be provided by power plant, but more power requires bigger plant which reduces effect of thrust because that increases ship's mass, so we get an equivalent of Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation. A capacitor, however, is smaller than power plant. So a design where a system can produce short bursts of power is plausible. In real life something similar is used, for example, on certain aircraft carriers as described here. The power system cannot supply enough power on its own, so it accmulates energy in Flyweel Energy Storage first, which acts as a capacitors.

Speaking of excuses, however, there is no excuse for being unable to build exceptional fuel injector on your factories.

[GCU Grey Area]

Basically, I highly recommend to anyone defending this strange decision to play elite dangerous combat. Probably need to play it for a bit. Then compare. Because like with VR, it is something you need to experience yourself, instead of trying to argue about it.

No, will certainly not be doing that. Have absolutely no intention of playing a game I have zero interest in, when I could instead spend that time playing a game I thoroughly enjoy. Anyway, it's not as though it's a new idea. Engine/shields/weapons power management is a very, very old game mechanic. Well aware of how it works, first encountered it myself when playing X-Wing over 30 years ago. Found it a very clunky game mechanic & simply not something I want to do in the middle of combat. Overjoyed that Egosoft didn't use this in X4 & that I can simply take power directly from the shields to power my boosters, without jumping through innumerable hoops transferring power back & forth just to charge up capacitors.

[LameFox]

Elite does not have to model as many ships in a playfield. The more compllicated the ship energy model the more compute required for each ship to play the game. In X4 that is the entire universe full of ships OOS and IS during a battle it could be hundreds. Things are tricky enough in that department already, rewriting the specification to adjust boost is not practical as it could have unexpected ramifications and unlikely due to divided player opinion. I think large adjustments of the boost model are only likely to happen between X versions i.e. X4 -> X5.

The best outcome for X4 is egosoft hone the mechanic they set out to create in the first place. The AI needs programming to use boost better, by someone with AI knowhow. AI specialists really can make a big difference to games. I remember when Sorian first arrived on the scene and adjusted Forged Alliance AI and the results were spectacular, night and day.

Player controls, which can adjust and retain boost settings for ships, fleets, subfleets are desperately needed.

Finally expose boost mechanics to modders, also boost controls and AI boost behaviour, so mods can experiment and provide different options.

Not entirely sure how complex it really needs to be. A few presets might be enough, that trigger based on the ship's current behaviour/health. If we assume you can fill 2/3 functions with maybe a pip left over:

-flying with shields above 80% could be a preset with weapons and engines full.
-boost/evasive flying could be a preset with engines and shields full.
-same for flee command.
-parked (either waiting, disabled, or e.g. a destroyer firing on a station) could be a preset with shields and weapons full.
-in combat with shields under 80% but not actively evading might then use a fully balanced preset.

Or something along those lines. Compared to getting a ship to intelligently drain its own shields to boost, I suspect this is easier. The reason the AI fails at it so much IMO is that it can't predict what's going to happen to it in the next few seconds, and to make it do that is probably not viable. So currently when it boosts it does not know if it really needed to, nor does it know if it's about to make its situation better or worse.

But having said that I also can't see them making this change to X4. This is more something I'd like to see in an X5 which (I really hope) releases in a more completed state than this one did.

[vvvvvvvv]

No, will certainly not be doing that. Have absolutely no intention ...

You're missing the point. The reason to play is to experience how it actually works. Because when people begin to argue about something "theoretically" they imagine all sort of things which have nothing to do with reality and often are plain ridiculous. This applies to separate gauges, that applies to VR that applies to many other things. You have to experience it or you won't ever get it.

It is also not about power management, but about separate gauges.

And the suggestion was provided in the first place, in order to make THIS game better. Because right now it is either a strange or a bad mechanic with no positives to it. I think this way because I played other games too. It best it is very questionable design decision.

[jlehtone]

What is the excuse for the spaceship thrusters not doing full burn non-stop?

They melt the ship. For example.

Or drain the shields.

Lore-writers can fill in whatever technobabble they like.

Ship going faster than it can is a game "feature". Since the feature yields some "advantage", there must be some "penalties" or else the feature would be on all the time, like there were no boost and all ships would just cruise faster. "Cannot use continuously" is a penalty that can be implemented in multiple ways. "Stays on only so long", "cannot be used more than N times", "consumes something", "overheats the ship", "must stay off X seconds between uses", or "drains shield" are all examples of that.

This topic is not about "separate technobabble", but about "I don't like the penalties of this feature (in this game)", isn't it? It does not even matter that other games have chosen different penalties -- getting same thing in every game is hardly a wide selection.

We do not play X4 because it is the smartest thing to do. We play it for the insanity.

[JasonX2000]

Boost is a new mechanic in X4 and needs special attention to make it work but has not had enough.

Nope, already been there in Rebirth

[Jeraal]

...
Because right now it is either a strange or a bad mechanic with no positives to it...

It is a strange or bad mechanic to you. I don't have a problem with it and think it makes sense.