Why Timeline has to be a seperate mode?

[Jamolotl]

How could it be less linked if there's no link at all right now?
The progress doesn't need to be tied. Have you played any sandbox games with dungeons? How a dungeon system in a sandbox game should work is quite clear after all these years.

I've been a gamer since the mid 90's, yes I am aware of dungeons, LOL.

Let me get this straight - are you telling me there's literally only one way sandbox games should be allowed to add DLC content and it just so happens to be your preference?

[flywlyx]

Let me get this straight - are you telling me there's literally only one way sandbox games should be allowed to add DLC content and it just so happens to be your preference?

I’m stating a simple fact: players feel betrayed because the DLC is detached from the main game.
DLC reviews are not secrets; anyone can check them out. You can live in your own world, but Egosoft can’t afford to.

[Jamolotl]

I’m stating a simple fact: players feel betrayed because the DLC is detached from the main game.
DLC reviews are not secrets; anyone can check them out. You can live in your own world, but Egosoft can’t afford to.

Maybe I can clear up where we're disagreeing. I don't like at all how hostile this got and we both clearly care about the series. Sorry if I was snarky or anything like that.

My issue is that the DLC doesn't fit either the series or the people developing it. I see scripted events, dialogue and voice-acting as probably the weakest aspect of X games, so I'd much rather the focus was on fixing up ship AI, adding new ship functions, etc. Many seem borderline broken or highly unintuitive to me. I'm guessing they wanted to try something very different and new, but knowing it was a risk made sure to add in some content for the main game too. The fact that they did that and added an endgame crisis makes me a lot more okay with their desire to experiment somewhat, especially after 4 entirely open universe focused DLCs.

Nobody was misled here. If you didn't understand the nature of the DLC it's due to your own inattentiveness, not any kind of deception or betrayal. It's clearly stated on the steam page. The kind of changes you're talking about would eat up arguably a lot more development time and make very little difference to me in terms of my enjoyment of the DLC. What WOULD make a difference is better mission design, better writing, better voice-acting, better animations etc. That's probably not going to happen, so my preference would be to focus on other content.

Essentially I agree this isn't a great DLC, what I disagree with is your assertion that there's only one valid way to add content to the entire genre. You can criticise something without totally invalidating it as a concept.

[mr.WHO]

I’m stating a simple fact: players feel betrayed because the DLC is detached from the main game.

Talk for youself, not for other players.

This DLC adds to sandbox game new sectors, new ships, new weapons, new faction, new station modules - basically everything that normal DLC adds.
You could argue about quantity of stuff (definetly need a few more ships as many Timelines missions miss the reward),
or how it's locked/unlocked/limited, but exactly the same issues could be pointed to Tides of Avarice (e.g infamous Erlking vaults).


I don't know how detached your from reality, but if you would know how X-games works, you would knew having Timelines inside sandbox (where player can hav massive personal empire and whole galaxy needs to be calculated), would be dertimental to both Timelines and Sandbox experience. Having seamless transition between Sandbox and TImelines as you ask, is a waste of time, when you can literally switch between two with 3 click in game menu, having this in sadbox would reduce it to 2 click (without ESC button) - some people really love to complicate their own life for now visible benefit.

[flywlyx]

Maybe I can clear up where we're disagreeing. I don't like at all how hostile this got and we both clearly care about the series. Sorry if I was snarky or anything like that.

My issue is that the DLC doesn't fit either the series or the people developing it. I see scripted events, dialogue and voice-acting as probably the weakest aspect of X games, so I'd much rather the focus was on fixing up ship AI, adding new ship functions, etc. Many seem borderline broken or highly unintuitive to me. I'm guessing they wanted to try something very different and new, but knowing it was a risk made sure to add in some content for the main game too. The fact that they did that and added an endgame crisis makes me a lot more okay with their desire to experiment somewhat, especially after 4 entirely open universe focused DLCs.

Nobody was misled here. If you didn't understand the nature of the DLC it's due to your own inattentiveness, not any kind of deception or betrayal. It's clearly stated on the steam page. The kind of changes you're talking about would eat up arguably a lot more development time and make very little difference to me in terms of my enjoyment of the DLC. What WOULD make a difference is better mission design, better writing, better voice-acting, better animations etc. That's probably not going to happen, so my preference would be to focus on other content.

Essentially I agree this isn't a great DLC, what I disagree with is your assertion that there's only one valid way to add content to the entire genre. You can criticise something without totally invalidating it as a concept.

No worry. We all want a better game.

The point is not Egosoft has explained it or not. The result tells everything: Egosoft hasn't explained it well enough. I would say if Egosoft released timeline as a new game, it would get better feedback and attract less hate, especially since their 7.0 update was well done. In fact, the performance would be even better since most sandbox assets wouldn't need to be loaded.

If the dungeon needs more development time, then they should keep it in the oven longer. Nobody enjoys a half-done meal.

Do you have an example where a DLC, similar to Timeline, which is separated from the main sandbox, has proven to be successful?

[flywlyx]

Talk for youself, not for other players.

You are going to add a new rule to the forum or what?

This DLC adds to sandbox game new sectors, new ships, new weapons, new faction, new station modules - basically everything that normal DLC adds.
You could argue about quantity of stuff (definetly need a few more ships as many Timelines missions miss the reward),
or how it's locked/unlocked/limited, but exactly the same issues could be pointed to Tides of Avarice (e.g infamous Erlking vaults).

I don't know how detached your from reality, but if you would know how X-games works, you would knew having Timelines inside sandbox (where player can hav massive personal empire and whole galaxy needs to be calculated), would be dertimental to both Timelines and Sandbox experience. Having seamless transition between Sandbox and TImelines as you ask, is a waste of time, when you can literally switch between two with 3 click in game menu, having this in sadbox would reduce it to 2 click (without ESC button) - some people really love to complicate their own life for now visible benefit.

Is this your first experience with a sandbox game, or is X4 the only sandbox game you've played?

If you're unfamiliar with typical dungeon mechanics and player expectations for dungeons, I'd recommend expanding your gaming experience.

If you're struggling to understand player frustrations or simply don't see them as important, just stop reply. I am talking about most players are looking for, not what you want. Put evidence here, not imagination.

[mr.WHO]

Is this your first experience with a sandbox game, or is X4 the only sandbox game you've played?

If you're unfamiliar with typical dungeon mechanics and player expectations for dungeons, I'd recommend expanding your gaming experience.

If you're struggling to understand player frustrations or simply don't see them as important, just stop reply. I am talking about most players are looking for, not what you want. Put evidence here, not imagination.

I think it's you in particular who are frustrated - why constantly ask about dungeon mechanics expectations?

Neither Timelines, nor X4 sandbox is a dungeon in any way - if you treat them as dungeon then no wonder you're frustrated.
BTW I played every single game in the series, starting from very first X-BTF.

[flywlyx]

I think it's you who are frustrated - why constantly ask about dungeon mechanics?
Neither Timelines, nor X4 sandbox is a dungeon in any way - if you treat them as dungeon then no wonder you're frustrated.
BTW I played every single game in the series, starting from very first X-BTF.

Egosoft is attempting to incorporate small, structured scenarios into their sandbox game - a feature commonly referred to as a dungeon mechanism.

If your exclusive focus on the X series has led to unfamiliarity with the concept of dungeons in games, that's unfortunate.

[mr.WHO]

In what world small scenarios are dungeon mechanic?

There are way more small scenarios mission pack and mechanics that have nothing to do with dungeons and there are a lot of dungeons who are much more robust and long running than any small scenario.

Dude, just let it go with dungeon stuff - somehow you're fixated and angry that Timelines in not a thing you misinterpreted it is - there is nowhere in X4/Timelines description, nor in past games/mechanics that this has anything to do with dungeon mechanics.

It doesn't make any sence, you can as well be frusstrated that Timelines lack Sims mechanics for crew, or that there is no citybuilding on planets - none of these is Egosoft or Timelines fault.

[jlehtone]

My issue is that the DLC doesn't fit either the series or the people developing it. I see scripted events, dialogue and voice-acting as probably the weakest aspect of X games, so I'd much rather the focus was on fixing up ship AI, adding new ship functions, etc. Many seem borderline broken or highly unintuitive to me.

The "scripted events, dialogue and voice-acting" is usually called "plot" or "story" here, isn't it? For some players those have been "insignificant side-dungeon" on most X games. "We" love the sand in our box without the litter.

I'm guessing they wanted to try something very different and new, but knowing it was a risk made sure to add in some content for the main game too. The fact that they did that and added an endgame crisis makes me a lot more okay with their desire to experiment somewhat, especially after 4 entirely open universe focused DLCs.

This DLC adds to sandbox game new sectors, new ships, new weapons, new faction, new station modules - basically everything that normal DLC adds.

IMHO, we should make clear what was added to sandbox by the DLC. The "endgame crisis" -- a different can of worms -- is not in the DLC. I think I've seen the "opt-in button" for that, and I've seen new sectors and ships. All that without the DLC, because they are in the base game.

AFAIK (without having the DLC), all the Timelines content for sandbox has to be unlocked with the Timelines missions. I gather the DLC does add some sectors and relics.

we're also set to memorise the location of our unlocked content in a whooping half of second, so when we feel like we should boot sandbox, we already forgot the locations anyway.

Is that really different from all the sectors and the pre-placed abandoned ships and Data Vaults of the base game? There is something somewhere that we might find by exploration. (For the record, the usual "sell the Odysseys" hint for starters that you can encounter on forums -- there is no hint for that ingame and I have never seen that ship. I have seen spoilers online, so I have practically avoided that part of space.)

If you're unfamiliar with typical dungeon mechanics and player expectations for dungeons, I'd recommend expanding your gaming experience.

Do you say that if we had experience, then we would have expectations, and with them anything un-expected is not good?
Then our lack of expectations prevents us from suffering like you do. We are sorry for your loss?

I recall dungeons that had levels with various difficulty, like X4 has different sectors.

The point is not Egosoft has explained it or not. The result tells everything: Egosoft hasn't explained it well enough.

Is any explanation ever noticed and understood by everyone? I have not perused what they wrote, so answer is no. Would more words help those that bother to read? Perhaps. But you do know that extensive documentation belongs to same class as plots: not a forte (yet).

[flywlyx]

In what world small scenarios are dungeon mechanic?

There are way more small scenarios mission pack and mechanics that have nothing to do with dungeons and there are a lot of dungeons who are much more robust and long running than any small scenario.

Dude, just let it go with dungeon stuff - somehow you're fixated and angry that Timelines in not a thing you misinterpreted it is - there is nowhere in X4/Timelines description, nor in past games/mechanics that this has anything to do with dungeon mechanics.

It doesn't make any sence, you can as well be frusstrated that Timelines lack Sims mechanics for crew, or that there is no citybuilding on planets - none of these is Egosoft or Timelines fault.

Name one game that has a DLC similar to the timeline.
You keep insisting it's something different, but you can't point to a similar game mechanic. Do you really believe this timeline feature is that unique?
If they're trying to sell a new game under X4's name, it would be better to completely separate it from X4. If they don't want to create a new game, fully integrating it with X4 would be the better option.

[flywlyx]

Do you say that if we had experience, then we would have expectations, and with them anything un-expected is not good?
Then our lack of expectations prevents us from suffering like you do. We are sorry for your loss?

I recall dungeons that had levels with various difficulty, like X4 has different sectors.

I'm not sure who you're representing, but I know many players regret the lost potential due to Egosoft's poor implementation of the Timeline mechanism.
I can't count how many players are disappointed by the disconnect between the sandbox and the Timeline.

Is any explanation ever noticed and understood by everyone? I have not perused what they wrote, so answer is no. Would more words help those that bother to read? Perhaps. But you do know that extensive documentation belongs to same class as plots: not a forte (yet).

The easiest way to prevent people from thinking a product is a type of pasta sauce is to place it away from the pasta sauce shelf.

[mr.WHO]

Name one game that has a DLC similar to the timeline.
You keep insisting it's something different, but you can't point to a similar game mechanic. Do you really believe this timeline feature is that unique?

Why would I need to name any game DLC - what it adds to TImelines discussion?
Timelines are what Egosoft wanted them to be - it's your problem you misinteprets what it is and keep insisting that it's dungeon.

If they're trying to sell a new game under X4's name, it would be better to completely separate it from X4. If they don't want to create a new game, fully integrating it with X4 would be the better option.

Again what with those weird takes - no one is selling new game, Timelines is in all, X4:Foundation game, content, story and lore wise.
All this pointless discussion is you complaining it's outside of sandbox and somehow is dungeon - neither is true.

[jlehtone]

Name one game that has a DLC similar to the timeline.
You keep insisting it's something different, but you can't point to a similar game mechanic. Do you really believe this timeline feature is that unique?

How could he point to "similar game mechanic", if Timeline has "unique mechanic"?

[Tharrg]

Again what with those weird takes - no one is selling new game, Timelines is in all, X4:Foundation game, content, story and lore wise.
All this pointless discussion is you complaining it's outside of sandbox and somehow is dungeon - neither is true.

No one is claiming X-Timelines is not part of the X franchise.

X-Timeilines reminds me of the way games like Mass Effect have a multi-player extension. Never played Mass-Effect-multiplayer but I can't see much connection between the single-player and multi-player games.

X-Timelines is logically a different game from X4, however, Egosoft has decided to treat one as a DLC of the other. Maybe a bit confusing and a disappointment to some pre-existing players but not a major sin.

[Carador]

I would also have preferred it to be integrated into the existing universe in the same way as the previous DLCs and not via a separate menu option with minor effects on the open universe.

[knivil]

I do not play X4 for the racing experience. I am glad that Timelines is not part of the main game. On the other side it added new ships, sectors and options to the main game. I likle that. I do not understand why everything needs to be black and white. I will play Timelines but only causually.

[Carador]

It just doesn't feel cohesive, and for many players that's an important point. It has nothing to do with black and white.

[eedden]

It's way easier to 'control' the player that way and stop him from doing something else while the game expects them to do a specific task in a specific set of circumstances.
In a game which is designed around the key elements of having a simulated universe and being able to control everything from everywhere, it can often be challenging to keep the player focussed on one thing. And often enough in the past, this has been the reason for plot breaking bugs.

I don't think that stopping the universe simulation and stripping the players of their usual interaction possibilities with the rest of the universe is that easy to accomplish. But even if it is, I also don't see how it's beneficial to do so, as you just have way more explaining to do and still end up with a "separation" from the sandbox.

Imo this is the only explanation that holds up. The missions being separate from the sandbox seems to have been the plan to create limited, repeatable and "pure" scenarios. This allows for effective feedback (through statistics and reviews) on what players like or dislike and what they struggle with.

If that fleet battle mission happened in sandbox I would have brought 3 times the ships to overpower the opponents and I would have kept "tabbing out" to do something else in my empire while the fleet engages.
But being "stuck" in that mission revealed things to me that I had never noticed before.
- There is a huge random factor in how an engagement turns out.
- Watching capital ships trip over themselves at snails pace drives me insane.
- You can delete the whole fleet structure you spent 20min creating by one missclick

And the leaderboards enourage people to replay the same missions again and again while connected to egosoft.

I believe (or at least I sincerely hope) that egosoft is gathering a ton of statistics to inform future developments.

[jlehtone]

And the leaderboards enourage people to replay the same missions again and again while connected to egosoft.

But you don't have to be connected, nor get into leaderboards, do you?