Pilots skill

[pref]

It's not about making money. It's about enjoying the game, piloting your own ship, galivanting the Galaxy. This can be done ONLY if you have automated trades and you don't have to micromanage every ten minutes or so. This means more Autotraders and Autominers from the start and way less (or better none) stations.

All my stations work without the need for micro every 10 mins. I maybe have to touch them every 8 hours or even less due to autotrade AI not being able to handle cargo that has no offers any more.
You can also automate deliver wares without skill requirements, with proper setup those will make quite some cash.
The only thing you cannot do is just release a couple hundred autotraders and be done with eco progression. And i won't miss that.

X4's progression route in this regard is different, stations come before autotrading and autotrading's value is not really to just make cash.

Otherwise having 4-5 star guys is just icing on the cake, won't make a significant difference unless its a personal relief pilot (but those can get to 3-4 stars quickly).

If you insists on having the X3 style trader progression then tater trader or similar mods allow this - with those you can be a millionaire even sooner while just flying around doing unrelated stuff and they need know knowledge of local economies or any kind of planning.

[GCU Grey Area]

It's not about making money. It's about enjoying the game, piloting your own ship, galivanting the Galaxy. This can be done ONLY if you have automated trades and you don't have to micromanage every ten minutes or so. This means more Autotraders and Autominers from the start and way less (or better none) stations.

This is simply not true. I never use autotraders. In the early-mid game prefer to retain more control over what goods my freighters transport, where they go & how much they carry. They work far more efficiently if I give them specific orders rather than relying on autotrade scripts. However certainly do not need to micromanage them "every ten minutes or so". I give them orders at the start of a session & many, many hours later (often days of real time) I may need to pause what I'm doing & spend a couple of minutes updating their order queues. This isn't X3, there's no need to micromanage freighters 1 order at a time.

[dtpsprt]

X4's progression route in this regard is different, stations come before autotrading and autotrading's value is not really to just make cash.

OK... let's see how this makes sense:

Price of an M transport: around 1 mill

Price of a Station: around 3 million in blueprints plus 1 million in resources plus 1 M transport (minimum) plus possibly 2 M miners to bring resources in.

Which comes first in the beginning stages of the game? And before you give the (known) arguments about blueprints going to be used (some unknown point in the future) again and again, I am talking early game here, starting from 5K in your pocked and a flying bucket for a ship.

If you insists on having the X3 style trader progression then tater trader or similar mods allow this - with those you can be a millionaire even sooner while just flying around doing unrelated stuff and they need know knowledge of local economies or any kind of planning.

If you start using mods I can give you a fantastic proposal that will free your hands.

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JP Another Explorer V2 explores a sector in about 1h gaining real xp at the same time. In about 3 sectors explored a 2* pilot (seminars) becomes a 5* and can handle Autotrade or Expert Automine)

We are talking vanilla progression here (I think), since Egosoft decided to "hide" components for Exceptional Ship Modifications there, giving the Modding community the "cold shoulder", despite their unique contribution to the playability of the X series in total. Of course this can be countermanded with another Mod, but again we are still talking vanilla here....

[dtpsprt]

This is simply not true. I never use autotraders. In the early-mid game prefer to retain more control over what goods my freighters transport, where they go & how much they carry. They work far more efficiently if I give them specific orders rather than relying on autotrade scripts. However certainly do not need to micromanage them "every ten minutes or so". I give them orders at the start of a session & many, many hours later (often days of real time) I may need to pause what I'm doing & spend a couple of minutes updating their order queues. This isn't X3, there's no need to micromanage freighters 1 order at a time.

A different playstyle which is respected but, in the same sense, the one I'm talking about should be equally respected too.
It is supposed to be a sandbox afterall, so accommodating only one playstyle (as it does now) puts it out of the genre, even from the Space Simulation category, to the Business Tycoon one that just happens to be in space with a topping of "Pew, Pew". (Afterall one has to be OOS for his pilots to use their common sense and weapon's values along with numbers to work).

[GCU Grey Area]

Price of a Station: around 3 million in blueprints plus 1 million in resources plus 1 M transport (minimum) plus possibly 2 M miners to bring resources in.

First station doesn't have to cost anywhere near that much. Dirt cheap to build a basic trade station (i.e. 1x S container storage + 1x S/M dock). Such a station provides much more control over pricing of wares, quantity traded & which factions are permitted to trade than using autotraders. No need for skilled pilots to operate the trade station's freighters. Managers also level up much faster than pilots or, if you're in a hurry to get to the full 5 gate radius, only need seminars for a single manager rather than multiple pilots.

[dtpsprt]

Price of a Station: around 3 million in blueprints plus 1 million in resources plus 1 M transport (minimum) plus possibly 2 M miners to bring resources in.

First station doesn't have to cost anywhere near that much. Dirt cheap to build a basic trade station (i.e. 1x S container storage + 1x S/M dock). Such a station provides much more control over pricing of wares, quantity traded & which factions are permitted to trade than using autotraders. No need for skilled pilots to operate the trade station's freighters. Managers also level up much faster than pilots or, if you're in a hurry to get to the full 5 gate radius, only need seminars for a single manager rather than multiple pilots.

For such a basic station you are right. BUT this fortifies my COMPLETE post... there is a portion of us, call us "Space Gypsies" or "Space Truckers" if you like, that would be absolutely happy to live without a single station if possible... and trust me, this is not a small minority...
I, personally, finished XBTF, XTENSION, X2, X3 REUNION WITHOUT a single station, making my money out of missions, police rewards and looting of dropped containers (except for the HQ).
X3 TC and X3 AP with one "Megacomplex" that would give me the enormous quantities demanded for the HUB and producing all kinds of missiles for the Corporations' demands (X3 TC) and would make a manual run with a Boa to sell the excess for money... c'est tout, s'est ca...

[GCU Grey Area]

I, personally, finished XBTF, XTENSION, X2, X3 REUNION WITHOUT a single station, making my money out of missions, police rewards and looting of dropped containers (except for the HQ).

Interesting, so HQ is an acceptable station for you. Is the same true of the X4 HQ?

If it is, it works reasonably well as a trade station after you've finished all the research. Particularly in more recent versions when you need to give it a fair bit of storage anyway to hold research materials. In my current game it was my first station, back when I was trying out the new (at the time) trade station functionality. Does OK as a trade station - good central location on the map, with literally hundreds of potential suppliers/customers within a 5 gate radius.

These are the performance stats for the first 24 hours or so of my HQ operating as a trade station:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p71gd8w7q8wci ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Have had more profitable stations, but this was orders of magnitude quicker, easier & cheaper to get up & running (basically assign a bunch of ships, configure storage, add a few more docks).

[dtpsprt]

I, personally, finished XBTF, XTENSION, X2, X3 REUNION WITHOUT a single station, making my money out of missions, police rewards and looting of dropped containers (except for the HQ).

Interesting, so HQ is an acceptable station for you. Is the same true of the X4 HQ?

If it is, it works reasonably well as a trade station after you've finished all the research. Particularly in more recent versions when you need to give it a fair bit of storage anyway to hold research materials. In my current game it was my first station, back when I was trying out the new (at the time) trade station functionality. Does OK as a trade station - good central location on the map, with literally hundreds of potential suppliers/customers within a 5 gate radius.

These are the performance stats for the first 24 hours or so of my HQ operating as a trade station:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p71gd8w7q8wci ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Have had more profitable stations, but this was orders of magnitude quicker, easier & cheaper to get up & running (basically assign a bunch of ships, configure storage, add a few more docks).

The HQ in X3 Reunion played a totally different role. It allowed you to reverse engineer ships and produce them, full with their equipment. In X3 TC and X3 AP it gives you almost infinite storage and you send your miners for Nividium, RELOCATE it in the "central" system of the four (one for each race) with high Nividium deposits for ease of access to the miners and make your money... bypassing the restriction on Trade Stations of 6 Nividium units at a time.

And, again, the crucial point is NOT EVERYONE IS INTERESTED IN RUNNING STATIONS

[Alm888]

And, again, the crucial point is NOT EVERYONE IS INTERESTED IN RUNNING STATIONS

Cool.
[sarcasm]
And not everyone is interested in having other ships besides the personal one.
I don't want to have other ships, period. But I want to be as rich and to be able to "sterilize" entire sectors within mere minutes, just like others do it with huge fleets. Because, again, I am not interested in running fleets.

Why can't I play the way I like and is forced to purchase/build large quantities of ships (that load my PC's CPU and degrade FPS)????
[/sarcasm]

Your accusations have nothing to do with the game flaws. You are willingly choosing to ignore large portion of game mechanics and are complaining that without these mechanics your gameplay is impaired. As it stands right now, no offense, but you are your own worst enemy.

Even if you are miraculously allowed to have large (or, even limitless) amount of "autotraders", soon you will find out that the market is not that large.

Some "hard truths" about trading vs. mining:

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1) First, let's compare trader vs. miner prices:
1.a) Cost of the "poor man's" Mercury Vanguard @ average prices on NPC wharfs (minus software) is: 213712Cr. That includes "ARG M All-round Engine Mk1", "M All-round Thrusters Mk1", "ARG M Shield Generator Mk1" abd that's it;
1.b) Cost of the "poor man's" Drill (Mineral) Vanguard @ average prices on NPC wharfs (minus software) is: 190118Cr. That includes the same equipment plus one "M Mining Drill Mk1";
2) Given the equipment setup, the "Mercury Vanguard" will have forward speed of 137.58 m/s; the "Drill (Mineral) Vanguard" will be at 245.29 m/s. That's 178.3% of Mercury, which means it will make deals faster;
3) Our ships are filled with best wares possible, bought @ lowest and sold @ highest prices:
3.a) our trader has 256 Advanced Electronics, bought @ 710 Cr (good luck finding this price in-game ), sold @ 1318 Cr. This nets us 155648 Cr per trade;
3.b) our miner has 980 Silicon, "bought" for free and sold @ 150 Cr. Each trade will bring 147000 Cr of profit.
4) Considering our miner is 1.78 times faster, it is more profitable. Plus, it is cheaper to outfit;
5) We did not take into account the market. While we can be certain in the 1318 Cr buying prices for Advanced Electronics, we will not be able to find profitable selling prices. NPC factions produce this ware in minuscule quantities (which is the reason it is in high demand in the first place!). In fact, if we increase our number of "autotraders" towards infinity, the supply will slip towards 0, ensuring selling prices would be 1317 Cr. Meanwhile even in case of full saturation, the prices for Silicon can not go lower than 111 Cr per unit.

Corollary: miners are far more profitable than traders. Plus, miners are ignored by pirates and have more chances to flee from Xenon by having higher speed.

You are blinded by your X3 experience, where the friendly GOD script ensured you would be profitable by adding/removing wares in order to maintain supply and demand.

X4 is not the re-skin of X3, its economy works differently! Not only the supply is extremely limited and is easily exhausted, resulting in "autotraders" having nothing to do, by building factories you are making supply and demand for yourself, expanding your maximum attainable income.

And as of right now, the culmination of this is…

Spoiler

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Player's Wharf! For example, the lowest price on NPC wharfs for a "Mercury Vanguard" hull is 147352 Cr, while its production cost is 90EC+159HP=34671 Cr @ average prices for components. This means NPC wharves are ripping players off by at least 425%! No "space trucker" can ever dream of being as strong as a wharf owner.

Playing "no-station" will not and shall not be as effective as utilizing the game's mechanics (i.e. building stations).

P.S. Stop Caps'ing around. This is not cool.

[Mr.Killer]

I wanted to make a new item about Pilot skill, but maybe here is also ok..... So I am flying a small fleet of cobra's for a fair enough time in a rather exciting sector I stole from Xenon (so, the status is not low, not high either) I go to a selected station that is in progress of building and start firing.... My fleet, In the offence status, does nothing, until I tell them after selecting this station to ATTACK MY TARGET!!!!.... only then will they open fire. bullets flying all around me..... sigh...... then every cobra is trying to head crash into the station and are annoyed when they accidentally (or absolutely dumb witted in their stupid moves) enter the stream of my firing guns....

What I do not understand is what is it with cobra captains that rather crash into the enemy instead of avoiding firing upon. When leading my other big fleet, 40 Behemoths, 30 Cobra's and 140 or so Chimera's is attacking a few Xenon K's, the most kills on my side are my Cobra's, why? If they would be able to think, (they would not be a captain in the first place), but, alas, I cannot take action on that judgement, a pilot is provided, how good or bad they are is I think random, but I am afraid they are more stupid than intelligent or act smart in their job... (or maybe they are suicidal and want to go out with a bang!)

And now do not try to smooth talk this behavior, it is not normal. I reckon that becoming a captain is not to pick the first idiot from the bandwagon and put him in control of a ship of nasty powers!!! but it seems more and more that this is the way EGOSOFT would like to see that captains act...

And deny there is something wrong with the AI.....tsssssss ahwell, take less Cobra's in the fight, we do need dumb as doornails too...... lets hope the next gen pilots are more smarter than the local population...

[jlehtone]

M-size ships are sluggish compared to S. The AI can barely keep L at main gun range from Station. Both M and S do headbut. The S can be nimbler to fly away but is also quicker to die. Not that it matters, when the M is large enough and still thin enough to be hit and wasted as quickly.

You don't get the point, either of my post or this answer. It's not about making money. It's about enjoying the game, piloting your own ship, galivanting the Galaxy. This can be done ONLY if you have automated trades and you don't have to micromanage every ten minutes or so. This means more Autotraders and Autominers from the start and way less (or better none) stations.

I can't see how "flying around" automatically requires auto-anything nor why that auto can't be a station.

[Imperial Good]

Being chance based completely explains why my pilots struggle to level up. RNG hates me

I personally would have preferred at least smaller granularity (not 1/3 levels but smaller) so that RNG is less dominant. I know the statistics average out but on an individual basis it does not necessarily feel like it.

[pref]

I personally would have preferred at least smaller granularity (not 1/3 levels but smaller) so that RNG is less dominant. I know the statistics average out but on an individual basis it does not necessarily feel like it.

Yes, that's a problem with the system, frequency of gain opportunities are very low compared to the chance, you need a lot of ships for this to even out.

[dtpsprt]

I can't see how "flying around" automatically requires auto-anything nor why that auto can't be a station.

It's not that it can't be, it's more the lack of choice. How will the USian public feel if Trump appointed Ivanka as his successor in presidency?

[Kosta88]

After another week I will say that I still think skill cumulation is bonkers.
I’ve been fighting (squadron of 5) at least 50 Xenon and Khaak around sectors trying to find parts for seta, and yet none of the pilots have advanced even slightly. Sorry, but that is in my book way off.

[TheGrandMugwump]

After another week I will say that I still think skill cumulation is bonkers.
I’ve been fighting (squadron of 5) at least 50 Xenon and Khaak around sectors trying to find parts for seta, and yet none of the pilots have advanced even slightly. Sorry, but that is in my book way off.

I haven't played nearly long enough to really test this since I'm relatively new to the X series (30 hours in X4). But the fastest pilot skill increase I've seen is for the backup pilot on my ship. All of my other captains' skills are stuck and haven't improved at all, but my backup pilot has gone from 1 1/3 stars piloting and 1 2/3 stars morale to 2 2/3 stars piloting and 3 stars morale over the course of 6 in game hours, and I haven't let him do a single thing beyond the occasional mission where I need to fly an abandoned ship in a mine field and tell him to follow me.

[dtpsprt]

I haven't played nearly long enough to really test this since I'm relatively new to the X series (30 hours in X4). But the fastest pilot skill increase I've seen is for the backup pilot on my ship. All of my other captains' skills are stuck and haven't improved at all, but my backup pilot has gone from 1 1/3 stars piloting and 1 2/3 stars morale to 2 2/3 stars piloting and 3 stars morale over the course of 6 in game hours, and I haven't let him do a single thing beyond the occasional mission where I need to fly an abandoned ship in a mine field and tell him to follow me.

It's true that your own's ship pilot will progress better than the others. The problem is getting a pilot on the 3rd star in total performance (you'll notice that with 3* morale and 2 2/3 pilot he is still under 3 stars total), so you can assign the pilot either in Autotrading for you or Advanced Automining (being able to gather more than one resource in more than one sectors and sell also), so you can get some decent early money to develop yourself.

In the process of the game you are going to need (no joke) 4* pilots for your capital warships, so that they will rather fight than "commit suicide" and manage a Fleet.

These are the processes that are, at best, glacial and we are all complaining about.

[jlehtone]

Are we? All?


Is it the "total performance" or the "skill in piloting" that determines what the pilot can do?


There were plenty of early decent credits without auto. What can I say? I have lowered expectations. That keeps me happy.

[dtpsprt]

Are we? All?

As in, those who complain, and believe me, if you get out on Steam Forum you'll see that.
Unless you can explain why Egosoft "softened" he pilot progress from 3.00 in 3.30. To many people that is not enough.

Is it the "total performance" or the "skill in piloting" that determines what the pilot can do?

Total Performance (average of Piloting Skills and Morale) is what defines the use of the pilot, in Auto mining and Auto trading.
Fighting Skills are depended only on Piloting Skills with Morale a far away second but you'll notice that most multi ship combat takes place OOS because of dramatic loss of fps and because the outcome is determined otherwise.

There were plenty of early decent credits without auto. What can I say? I have lowered expectations. That keeps me happy.

Again you are missing the biggest point: CHOICE

P.S. Yes... a lot of caps when needed to drill something in... btw how much more trolling is about to come?

[jlehtone]

Again you are missing the biggest point: CHOICE

Indeed. I feel like I'm making choices, but if what you imply is true then I'm just fooling myself.

I.e. I can't see what I'm missing. Can you explain the "choices" without loud words?