Skill and training Feedback

[chew-ie]

Please at least take the time to read the full discussion. There is more on it here and some responses here, here and here. We're actively discussing ways to simplify the process of applying the skill training that you have available through seminars.

From what I gather, players are all on the same page, NOBODY WANTED THIS!.. and you're directing me to read a bunch of posts saying the exact same thing.

Actually - no. Not all players are on the same page. There are some who play the game in a manner where they need 100 5 Star pilots per minute. While this is an okayish point of view, it doesn't reflect every playstyle.

And what CBJ is trying to show that this is a work in progress. Not done in a way some prefer BUT it will change. At the end, it's the game of Egosoft and it has to fit their design philosophy. For those players who can't be arsed to agree on this there is always the modding fallback.

Okay, dumb question -

I have seen at least 5 different 2-5 Star Pilots running around on stations, but they have always been mission targets and were therfore not availlable for hiring, which I feel is excessively gruesome to rub their existence under our noses and then just go "HAHA ! Can't have him !!"

I do understand you want a slower progression, but what about Missions that give you the ability to hire those ?

This would make hiring good personnel an activity and not just clicking around.
Mission types could reflect the type of personnel you are seeking, like "Go and poach the manager of our competitor by making him an offer he can't turn down", don't get money for it, just a bit standing and a competent Manager.

I also think a chance of hiring those "skilled" mission NPCs would be nice - after you did a mission for them. Of course, their price have to reflect their value. should be 100k-ish or above, not 500 credits (or even below).

[mr.WHO]

That doesn't help mid/late game at all.
If I'm CEO of private empire with fleet of ships, do I really want to babysit every single crew member on my ships?
NO! I'd simply throw a large hump of money and say "Find me 5 star crew for my destroyer".

Right now, all I can do, is throw my money to buy large hump of "operationally challenged" personel

[hannihanagarth]

Oooh, and another idea !

When Pilots give up their ship / stations explode, make them float around in space for us to rescue, then give them a chance to be hired out of gratitude.
(Depending on race, some might even want to be hired when you were the reason for them blowing up in the first place, because you proved to be superior )

For example Teladi might even ask you to let them join because you just bought out their company and you are clearly a capitalist to follow, or a Split might decide he is better off gathering honour under your leadership etc.


I think it would be a far better decision to make players play the game instead of the Interface. Getting highly skilled personnel should be fun and engaging.

[Matthew94]

That doesn't help mid/late game at all.
If I'm CEO of private empire with fleet of ships, do I really want to babysit every single crew member on my ships?
NO! I'd simply throw a large hump of money and say "Find me 5 star crew for my destroyer".

Right now, all I can do, is throw my money to buy large hump of "operationally challenged" personel

Agreed.

The current system actively fights against you expanding your empire because if you want to do it "right" then each additional ship increases the amount of micromanagement and time wasting you have to go through.
If anything the real "currency" in this game is time and not credits.
Anything that's worthwhile just costs you more and more time that's not spent playing and is instead spent fiddling with menus.

This is why my normal strategy is mass production of destroyers.
**** tactics, I'll just swarm everyone who gets in my way.
It works but I'd love to have an effective strategy that isn't me role-playing the soviets in WW2.

[Gavrushka]

That doesn't help mid/late game at all.
If I'm CEO of private empire with fleet of ships, do I really want to babysit every single crew member on my ships?
NO! I'd simply throw a large hump of money and say "Find me 5 star crew for my destroyer".

Right now, all I can do, is throw my money to buy large hump of "operationally challenged" personel

I think the problem with that is, if you decide one element can be solved by 'throwing money at it' you can make the same argument for all late-game elements, ergo there is no late game for anyone who wants to engage.

Although I agree changes need to be made, the analogy you suggest would end any engagement in the game for many players. - I'm loving some of the more adventurous suggestions, including race-specific responses to player actions as just mentioned by @Hannihanagarth.

[chew-ie]

Oooh, and another idea !

When Pilots give up their ship / stations explode, make them float around in space for us to rescue, then give them a chance to be hired out of gratitude.
(Depending on race, some might even want to be hired when you were the reason for them blowing up in the first place, because you proved to be superior )

For example Teladi might even ask you to let them join because you just bought out their company and you are clearly a capitalist to follow, or a Split might decide he is better off gathering honour under your leadership etc.


I think it would be a far better decision to make players play the game instead of the Interface. Getting highly skilled personnel should be fun and engaging.

I'd like that as well! Would fit a pirate game - gather your crew by "convincing" them you are the boss

[Matthew94]

That doesn't help mid/late game at all.
If I'm CEO of private empire with fleet of ships, do I really want to babysit every single crew member on my ships?
NO! I'd simply throw a large hump of money and say "Find me 5 star crew for my destroyer".

Right now, all I can do, is throw my money to buy large hump of "operationally challenged" personel

I think the problem with that is, if you decide one element can be solved by 'throwing money at it' you can make the same argument for all late-game elements, ergo there is no late game for anyone who wants to engage.

That is the solution in real life though.
Companies throw shitloads of cash into R&D and various other things in order to improve themselves.
CEOs aren't phoning up every employee to give them individual orders or hiring average people off the street and putting them through training, which is effectively what we're relegated to right now.

If you want the late game to be harder then there needs to be some actual competition between factions beyond all out warfare that's fixed at the start of the game.
Give that there's no real scarcity of resources in X4 and pretty much everyone is friends with one another, beyond HOP in the base game, anyone can become a major economic powerhouse given time.

The devs say they don't want too much automation but given that AI factions are essentially giant automated traders and stations auto-change their prices by default, what you're left with is everything in the game is automated anyway except for the player.
In some ways it's easier to boost the economy by helping existing stations than by making your own as they're so much better at automation.

[Gavrushka]

LOL, I play the game to escape real life, not duplicate it...

You haven't and can't address the fundamental tenet that by offering a solution that involves cash, you're effectively ending game engagement.

You see the game through the eyes of how you want to play it, whereas Egosoft have to see it through everyone's as best they can. - Changes will be made, no doubt, to move it back towards the gameplay you'd like to see, but with some element of input besides a pure financial solution.

It's called compromise, but has to be done in such a way that the 'balance' of individual needs is met, not just one interest group.

[Max Bain]

Because CBJ asked in the beta forum for ideas in this thread. I once posted a mod idea but no one was found to make it so far.


Idea:
Give Habitats a Recruitment Area where from time to time NPCs will be recruited. You can set what kind of recruits you want and how many stars (max 4) and then from time to time you will get more crew members. The higher the stars you want, the less frequent you get new crew. The recruits stay in the recruitment area and still need to be hired.

A small Habitat can recruit 1 type of recruits at a time and has a capacity of 25.
A medium Habitat can recruit 2 types and can hold 50.
A large Habitat can recruit 3 types and hold 100.

You can hire the same type of crew if you want. SO a large can hire only marines if necessary.

For a marine
- the change to get a 1 star marine each 5 minutes is 80%
- the change to get a 2 star marine each 5 minutes is 60%
- the change to get a 3 star marine each 5 minutes is 40%
- the change to get a 4 star marine each 5 minutes is 20%

For a pilot
- the change to get a 1 star marine each 10 minutes is 60%
- the change to get a 2 star marine each 10 minutes is 45%
- the change to get a 3 star marine each 10 minutes is 30%
- the change to get a 4 star marine each 10 minutes is 15%

For a manager:
- the change to get a 1 star manager each 20 minutes is 40%
- the change to get a 2 star manager each 20 minutes is 30%
- the change to get a 3 star manager each 20 minutes is 20%
- the change to get a 4 star manager each 20 minutes is 10%

For an engineer:
- the change to get a 1 star engineer each 10 minutes is 50%
- the change to get a 2 star engineer each 10 minutes is 40%
- the change to get a 3 star engineer each 10 minutes is 30%
- the change to get a 4 star engineer each 10 minutes is 20%


So to get 25 marines of 1 star takes 156 minutes (average).
To get 25 marines with 4 star marines takes 625 minutes (average).
For managers and engineers it takes way longer.

Keep in mind that these values are just a first idea and need to be balanced. Secondary skills of each type are generated randomly but are all below the main skill.

Also it is open if you still have to pay for the recruits, so you only get a pool you can choose from, or if the people will be hired automatically. In the last case, there need to be a high upkeep cost of course.

[mr.WHO]

I think the problem with that is, if you decide one element can be solved by 'throwing money at it' you can make the same argument for all late-game elements, ergo there is no late game for anyone who wants to engage.

But this is the point and reason to have large empire in the first place - I don't like gathering resources for station building, so I slab money into station construction and let NPC do the rest.
I don't like to bother with NPC shipayrds not havign equipment and resources, so I slab my money into my private shipyard and blueprints.


That is the true fun of having an empire in the first place - you don't micro - you MACRO!
Unfortunately you cannot macro the crew training, because even if you have plenty of traders/miners with good skills you have to manually move them between the ships you want.
AGAIN - you're the CEO - you say "I want Carrier with 5 start crew - here is the money - deal with it and let me know once it's done".
Currently you can't do this without serious micromanagement or ending with 1 or 2 star challenged NPCs.

[hannihanagarth]

On that matter, when I remember the old Bonus packs, Pilots had an upkeep.

Make them a commodity with Combined Level^2*1000 cost, the better the rarer and then add an upkeep. Upkeep would flatten the curve ( ) of the exponential income curve when done right. Anything above 2 Stars should still be rare enough so the Missions to get them would be actually needed.

Maybe add Morale into the upkeep, like high Morale -> less upkeep and a Teladi will have less upkeep when he's generating lots of cash ( It's not work when you love what your doing!) or a Split will ask for less when he's constantly shooting stuff ( again : It's not work when you love what your doing!)

I see a lot of possibilities to work that stuff out which could make this game immensely more lively and give the different species more character as well.

@Max Brain :
Instead of having an recruitment centre, why not just spawn them on the stations. Then it would be a lot more useful to walk around on stations.
Have all those people hang around in Bars, a bit more Pilots on the hangar decks, a bit more managers at the manager sections and so on.

[birdtable]

Sorry if already suggested ... Why not make suitably qualified staff only available on ships built in the Shipyard / Wharfs owned by the player.

[lordmuck]

Hey,

Read through the first page so I'm sorry if these have been said.
I have a few ideas.

1 - Rescue missions could have a random reward for a pilot of high stats for any of the usual jobs, trading, mining, fighting, boarding and construction. This rescue mission could also add a little life to things and give that pilot a very small paragraph or two of a story about him/her, these pilots could also have some other in-game dialogue (the little cam that pops up on the right of the screen) when they are fighting or simply responding to the player, and could look unique. However, the sounds, story and looks are totally not important at the moment. (could also add more story later on where the pilot asks you for another favour after X time or X kills if its a fight pilot, X credits traded if its a trader type etc favours could be - kill mission - capture - destroy a station (the reward would have to be something epic for a station kill tho)

2 - converting an L miner/construction ship to a training ship, however, we would need a new NPC as we had in X3 to train marines I think ( I am sorry I have a brain of a goldfish). Anyway a new NPC "flight instructor" would be needed on a L ship to be able to set it as a training ship.
This could be taken a few steps further, the ship type would increase stars in that area, if its a destroyer, the pilot skills for fighting, moral etc which would help in boarding. If its a transport ship, then skills in trading and any skills that help in trading and finally mining ship, would help boost the pilot skill and any other skills that would help for mining more efficiently / finding better locations to mine that would be closer to where the resource is needed, therefore they can universal mine around the Xverse mining where there is a lack of X resource which is close to the station that needs it.

3 - New station module, this would be much more work as you most probably would want something that looks unique, but temp fix I guess we can live with reusing a model. The station module could hold much more personnel to train than a L ship, it could hold more trainers too, each trainer could train a max amount of personnel at a time 20 for example. Players could get an option in which these new recruits should be trained in trade/fight/etc... This could open up another business for the player, selling trained pilots to NPCs lol

The seminars could be given to the ship mentioned in 2 or station in 3. This would rapidly boost the training.

Players could be able to set the max stars they want for a pilot 2-4. So if I choose 3 stars I could get a ping saying that X pilot is now 3 star. Where shall we drop him/her off (and considering these are L ships we most probably can dock a scout ship which could deliver that pilot to a station or new ship!)

[chew-ie]

Instead of having an recruitment centre, why not just spawn them on the stations. Then it would be a lot more useful to walk around on stations.
Have all those people hang around in Bars, a bit more Pilots on the hangar decks, a bit more managers at the manager sections and so on.

That would unleash the wrath of those folks who _hate_ it to even dock at a station to do anything and consider station walking implementation as a waste of resources.

[tomchk]

How about they add pilots as a ware that can be traded somehow? Then you could set the price you would pay for 1, 2, 3, and 4 star pilots and potentially compete with NPCs. Set your price the highest, and you get them for sure. Player could also set a limit on how many they want of a given star level. Thoughts?

[Gavrushka]

I think the problem with that is, if you decide one element can be solved by 'throwing money at it' you can make the same argument for all late-game elements, ergo there is no late game for anyone who wants to engage.

But this is the point and reason to have large empire in the first place - I don't like gathering resources for station building, so I slab money into station construction and let NPC do the rest.
I don't like to bother with NPC shipayrds not havign equipment and resources, so I slab my money into my private shipyard and blueprints.


That is the true fun of having an empire in the first place - you don't micro - you MACRO!
Unfortunately you cannot macro the crew training, because even if you have plenty of traders/miners with good skills you have to manually move them between the ships you want.
AGAIN - you're the CEO - you say "I want Carrier with 5 start crew - here is the money - deal with it and let me know once it's done".
Currently you can't do this without serious micromanagement or ending with 1 or 2 star challenged NPCs.

It's your point, not that of others. - The game has to be created for the many, not just an individual. Appreciate that, and then you can understand why Egosoft are doing what they're doing. - The only argument we can make is for our own play style, I get that, but then making an argument we should all play it that way isn't really adding to the debate. - I want it *my* way too, but I appreciate that's not gonna happen.

It will change to favour your style a little more, but you ain't gonna get the old system back, that's an absolute certainty.

[hannihanagarth]

That would unleash the wrath of those folks who _hate_ it to even dock at a station to do anything and consider station walking implementation as a waste of resources.

That's why my prefered way would be having them sometimes run around on stations, the possibility to rarely hire them directly (like a "Mission" "Job wanted") and a whole lot of dangerous and engaging missions which award you with a competent hireling.

[Matthew94]

You haven't and can't address the fundamental tenet that by offering a solution that involves cash, you're effectively ending game engagement.

The whole time I've been arguing for a change in UI, not cash based solutions. Read the thread before telling me what my argument is.

The UI is dogshit for anything that isn't complete micromanagement.
The issue would be completely fixed if we could see when people are promoted, be able to command multiple crew in parallel, and be able to read and filter crew stats easily.

If I want to build and assign 10 miners to a sector, I shouldn't have to go into the info screen for each one, choose sector mine for each one, then move the map to the sector for each one (because the map resets when you do that) and then confirm the command for each one.
I should be able to highlight all ten of them and do one single command.
Hell, I should be able to highlight all of them and then right click on a sector and have a context command called "sector mine here" or something instead of having to menu dive.

If I want to check who is promoted and I have 200 ships, I shouldn't have to right click and check the info 200 times not to mention that the list view of ships resets every time so you have to scroll down and find the next ship in the list every single time.

The UI is the single biggest issue in this game.
When you want to go from "station owner" to "empire builder" the whole thing implodes.
The UI is simply not able to work at the scale that they advertise the game to work at.

You see the game through the eyes of how you want to play it, whereas Egosoft have to see it through everyone's as best they can. - Changes will be made, no doubt, to move it back towards the gameplay you'd like to see, but with some element of input besides a pure financial solution.

It's called compromise, but has to be done in such a way that the 'balance' of individual needs is met, not just one interest group.

A UI change is a compromise.
If some people want to spend 3000 hours on a save tinkering with every single pilot individually, more power to them but for people who understand that working at a macro scale requires macro-scale commands, the UI needs to be changed.

[Gavrushka]

@Matthew94, sincere apologies if I've misunderstood your argument. -I'd misinterpreted your comment about throwing shedloads of money at it and, yes, not digested the whole post.

I think it's a given that the UI is going to be improved, and the application of Seminars should be easier. - I'd made the suggestion that they should form part of the loadout screen when equipping new ships, and the 'available seminars' could feature just as the 'available crew' does now. - By doing this, the right number of seminars, based on existing crew / captain skill can be applied.

[abisha1980]

without 3 star pilots i see no reason to keep playing simple
it's to much with the current UI and i find it a deal braker.

it's a sad game choose and i think it's also a wrong choose.
till next year.