Weak programmatically implementation

[Solflame]

If you mean the lifts in shipyards to go between the S and M docks, those work.

Also, pretty much all the things you mentioned can be culled out.

Another question for "just make a bounding box/sphere and when it touches the edge then it goes to the dock" : If it was that easy, why didn't they do it? Is it possible that it is harder for them to calculate the size of the station from the center point than you might think? Heck, how do they determine the center point?

Obviously, this needs work, at least in sector, but the solution they have now, while not ideal for collisions, works 99% of the time, IS and OOS, and that's really what they need. Especially since they did a collision avoidance pass, even riding along I see very few collisions w/ the station itself.

[CaptainX4]

If you mean the lifts in shipyards to go between the S and M docks, those work.

??? no the lifts on the walls of the stations unaccessible parts. I see they are so important nobody other than me even notices them

Also, pretty much all the things you mentioned can be culled out.

unless you are looking that way AND the culling itself takes time too

Another question for "just make a bounding box/sphere and when it touches the edge then it goes to the dock" : If it was that easy, why didn't they do it? Is it possible that it is harder for them to calculate the size of the station from the center point than you might think? Heck, how do they determine the center point?

ask them, this bugs me too as its a cheapass way to do it, it can be easily calculated at building time, or just use the plot as boundary, even cheaper way as its ready available

Obviously, this needs work, at least in sector, but the solution they have now, while not ideal for collisions, works 99% of the time, IS and OOS, and that's really what they need. Especially since they did a collision avoidance pass, even riding along I see very few collisions w/ the station itself.

what works 99%? it works 100% THE WRONG WAY. sure it doesnt matter if you are not there but traveling on an AI piloted ship is part of the design so it should suit it...

[Nexuscrawler]

What a bunch of nonsense I'm reading here. OP is correct with his statement that the pathfinding is just a sloppy implementation for now.
Pathfinding is not expensive. Not the sort of pathfinding you'd need for the stuff you'd expect ships to do in X4 anyway. The whole mass traffic has pathfinding and those ships are spammed by the thousands.
If you are so concerned about that, then dedicate a core to it. X4 is multithreaded now and pathfinding just applies to the ships that are not out of sector anyway.

Stop making excuses for this. Egosoft will have to fix this issue, no matter how complicated some of you want to make it look like.

Another question for "just make a bounding box/sphere and when it touches the edge then it goes to the dock" : If it was that easy, why didn't they do it?

My guess? Because they didn't get to do it yet. Pathfinding is not finished, it's barely implemented and in alpha state, like a lot of other stuff.
They didn't think it was too complicated and couldn't do it, they simply didn't have the time to do it yet.

Is it possible that it is harder for them to calculate the size of the station from the center point than you might think?

It's as easy as it gets. You have a build plot. It's a square with a fixed size. You are already shown the center point by the game when you place the plot down.
How can you even ask that question? The center point is already calculated and shown to you.

Obviously, this needs work, at least in sector, but the solution they have now, while not ideal for collisions, works 99% of the time, IS and OOS, and that's really what they need.

The current solution is to fly to the center, and then clip through anything that's in the way to the dock.

[Solflame]

...culling doesn't take time at all. Culling is called "not doing it". The hard part of culling is the set up, but it's pretty much instant once it's set up. Not to mention LoDs as well. Also, obviously stuff isn't culled out when you look at it but the entire universe isn't constantly going at once, was my point. Docking calculations do have to happen constantly across the entire game, even for ships who you can't see. That's an entirely different resource pie (CPU vs GPU) and a much different scale of utilization.

Animating stations is cheap... you might as well complain about the spinning stations and jumpgates in X3, and again, it doesn't render if you aren't looking at it.

Again, unless you can do the programming yourself and show me how easy it is, I'm going to assume that Egosoft had a reason for it, and considering you can't even tell the difference between CPU vs GPU tasks and what has to be constantly done and what is only for what is within a certain distance of a player.

Lastly, I have ridden multiple ships into dock. Before 1.30 they would usually crash into the station, yes, but I have had them land numerous times without crashing. In sector, they approach the station until they reach the center point OR they would collide with the station (which always happens first). If they would collide, they stop, and begin navigating to the dock. Have you played since that update, or have you just been too busy complaining on the forums this whole time?

@Nexuscrawler If you actually read my post rather than getting really goddamn mad at me for no reason, I'm pointing out that the solution, while sloppy, is not a game breaking thing right now. Yes, it does need to get fixed. Yes, the collisions, while reduced, are still bad. However, people are losing their shit and treating every little bug like Egosoft is a bunch of stupid monkeys instead of giving them basic respect. Also, fun fact: the center of the build plot is not necessarily the center of the station. You can see this by building your station to the bottom left corner of the plot cube and noting that the actual logo on the map is not on the station itself. It might always be the center of AI stations, but it will not always be the center of player stations, and the logic has to work for both.

Honestly, there are probably a lot of solutions. Hell, some of them are probably simple as hell. However, the attitude should not be "Egosoft is a bunch of idiots, why'd they do this?" which is all I'm seeing here. That's what I'm taking issue with. It could be an engine issue w/ how they do stations. It could be they have a way of doing it but it's a bit too resource expensive, so they need to optimize it right now. Or it might be just they ran out of time and once they get someone to do it it'll take em a few days and bam it'll work fine. But there was a reason, technical or production, that it didn't get done.

[DMM]

I just realized as read forum that many bad behavior

Hahah I can’t even .....

[Nexuscrawler]

If you actually read my post rather than getting really goddamn mad at me for no reason, I'm pointing out that the solution, while sloppy, is not a game breaking thing right now.

I am not mad at you, but like you are not liking the attitude that people have no faith in Egosoft, I am a bit tired of hearing that it's basically not so bad.
There is no way I can stay and watch my HQ, because after a few minutes, 20 ships will be stuck in the asteroid. There is no way I can move together with my fleet, because they'll end up spread out over 3 systems. If you want stuff to happen without causing an issue, then you must not be there to watch it. You must be somewhere else. I am currently playing the game sitting on the Pirat Base in Silent Witness controlling everything from the map from a distance, because if I'd be in the same system with my ships, they'd take 3 times as long for everything.

Also, fun fact: the center of the build plot is not necessarily the center of the station. You can see this by building your station to the bottom left corner of the plot cube and noting that the actual logo on the map is not on the station itself.

That is what I was talking about. I am currently making it so the "center" is on the top middle of the plot and then I'm building my docks underneath that point. The ships fly there and then straight down to dock. If you know that, you can make the ships dock without an issue on any station you build. But that doesn't work for the NPC stations.

[CaptainX4]

...culling doesn't take time at all. Culling is called "not doing it".

never read more laughable statement culling takes a lots of time as every object in the scene has to be tested to the camera planes if they are visible or not, many things have to be tested if they are on my side of the object so they are visible or not etc etc etc, this all takes lots of time. maybe read up epics tutorial on culling, its pretty basic but a good place to start

The hard part of culling is the set up, but it's pretty much instant once it's set up. Not to mention LoDs as well. Also, obviously stuff isn't culled out when you look at it but the entire universe isn't constantly going at once, was my point. Docking calculations do have to happen constantly across the entire game, even for ships who you can't see. That's an entirely different resource pie (CPU vs GPU) and a much different scale of utilization.

Animating stations is cheap... you might as well complain about the spinning stations and jumpgates in X3, and again, it doesn't render if you aren't looking at it.

lol, you dont get it do you? its not us complaining about these things, we give them as example that there are far more expensive things done that are pointless rather than using that capacity on pathing. culling for one is mostly done on cpu, just like pathing so culling out a 1000 fake-traffic ships in every frame is actually far more expensive than a distance check or setting a new direction, especially that they dont have to run in every frame

Again, unless you can do the programming yourself and show me how easy it is, I'm going to assume that Egosoft had a reason for it, and considering you can't even tell the difference between CPU vs GPU tasks and what has to be constantly done and what is only for what is within a certain distance of a player.

first of again you too discussing an other forumuser's abilities which is against the forum rules, secondly im a software analyst and developer and done this many times but i wont start developing such system to prove my point, not like if i would have to. pathing and collision avoidance is done in many similar games hell, it was done on ancient hardware too back as far as amiga. you can assume whatever you want, the reality tells us a different tale

Lastly, I have ridden multiple ships into dock. Before 1.30 they would usually crash into the station, yes, but I have had them land numerous times without crashing. In sector, they approach the station until they reach the center point OR they would collide with the station (which always happens first). If they would collide, they stop, and begin navigating to the dock. Have you played since that update, or have you just been too busy complaining on the forums this whole time?

why ohhh why, you know just as i do that this is not true even in 1.32 they 100% do fly into the stationmodel, phase through the walls until gets to the center then they turn to the dock and again flying though all the walls in its way. they phase through jumpgates and accelerators ALL THE TIME, so unless you play a different game then just stop
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[DancingPengiun]

i got shit on for reminding everyone not to preorder and that the game would be busted on release. same devs, making the same mistakes. theres a chance some better docking logic might come out during this game's life cycle, but just look at x3. what a damn shame.

Hear hear, I was too advising some not to preorder and hold off a bit. Egosoft don't produce AAA coding out the box shown clearly from previous titles, yet people who get worked up and arm chair the programming will still go ahead and buy it.

And now they are stuck with it and complaining about it here.

[tSpecR]

I don't want to defend Egosoft because X4 really is a mess, and the way they are handling releases has to be reconsidered in the future.

But. Saying that X3 is "barely playable even with mods" is such a far fetch, that... Basically, everything disproves that statement. But especially the fact that its a favourite among space sim fans.

I was still playing X3 with no mods until a couple of months ago and almost everything in it works fine for me. I agree that is a very very far fetched statement. I never even used mods in x3. X4 is pretty buggy but not that bad, I can play it fine and they seem to be releasing petches pretty quickly.

[CaptainX4]

i got shit on for reminding everyone not to preorder and that the game would be busted on release. same devs, making the same mistakes. theres a chance some better docking logic might come out during this game's life cycle, but just look at x3. what a damn shame.

Hear hear, I was too advising some not to preorder and hold off a bit. Egosoft don't produce AAA coding out the box shown clearly from previous titles, yet people who get worked up and arm chair the programming will still go ahead and buy it.

And now they are stuck with it and complaining about it here.

mostly newcomers are angry and they didnt know how egosoft works, they have seen a fancy advert of a fancy game and bought it. you cant blame them...

[idragon]

I don't want to defend Egosoft because X4 really is a mess, and the way they are handling releases has to be reconsidered in the future.

But. Saying that X3 is "barely playable even with mods" is such a far fetch, that... Basically, everything disproves that statement. But especially the fact that its a favourite among space sim fans.

I was still playing X3 with no mods until a couple of months ago and almost everything in it works fine for me. I agree that is a very very far fetched statement. I never even used mods in x3. X4 is pretty buggy but not that bad, I can play it fine and they seem to be releasing petches pretty quickly.

I was talking about the end game, big fleets, the pathfinding - collision of the big ships, just go now in game and order a destroyer or a carrier to attack a xenon station or a even a X capital ship. Dont use bounce mod. See what happens.

If you are in system prepare for your ships to collide with the station or other ships (some might die lol), turn a couples of time to try to fire with it turrets, see how your fighters suicide etc. By the time they do dmg, they will die. The solution was to be out of the sector...but OOS rules of combat was only properly tweaked in X3 AP, most likely with the help of modders.

i played X3 TC and AP for over 500 hours, and it was a good game, but the end game, man it was frustrating to fix the fleet behavior with mods and custom tweaks. And guess what on X4 release, they didnt learn anything its even worse than X3. Because people are rather smelling their farts, instead of telling them "Guys, really, you do this to us again! and you wonder why we are pissed? ". Luckily, "radicals" and "haters" like me are just a small number, so they wont change their behavior.

"Broken behaviors? - The sector is expandiiiiiiiing gays!" ))

Have fun!

[CaptainX4]

I don't want to defend Egosoft because X4 really is a mess, and the way they are handling releases has to be reconsidered in the future.

But. Saying that X3 is "barely playable even with mods" is such a far fetch, that... Basically, everything disproves that statement. But especially the fact that its a favourite among space sim fans.

I was still playing X3 with no mods until a couple of months ago and almost everything in it works fine for me. I agree that is a very very far fetched statement. I never even used mods in x3. X4 is pretty buggy but not that bad, I can play it fine and they seem to be releasing petches pretty quickly.

I was talking about the end game, big fleets, the pathfinding - collision of the big ships, just go now in game and order a destroyer or a carrier to attack a xenon station or a even a X capital ship. Dont use bounce mod. See what happens.

If you are in system prepare for your ships to collide with the station or other ships (some might die lol), turn a couples of time to try to fire with it turrets, see how your fighters suicide etc. By the time they do dmg, they will die. The solution was to be out of the sector...but OOS rules of combat was only properly tweaked in X3 AP, most likely with the help of modders.

i played X3 TC and AP for over 500 hours, and it was a good game, but the end game, man it was frustrating to fix the fleet behavior with mods and custom tweaks. And guess what on X4 release, they didnt learn anything its even worse than X3. Because people are rather smelling their farts, instead of telling them "Guys, really, you do this to us again! and you wonder why we are pissed? ". Luckily, "radicals" and "haters" like me are just a small number, so they wont change their behavior.

Have fun!

exactly this. I put around 4000 hours into X3 but its still a mess. pathing, avoidance, ai, war scripts all are mess... and apologetic behaviour hurts the series the most because it tells them how we love their game and its all good as it is

[teMELEEn]

They still cant fix issue when one resource will take all storage space and kill station. Though all it takes is make so each resource only take respective amount of space, if station needs 2 resources then one max take 0.5 of storage. Its a few lines of code. Im a programmer myself as a full time job. So yeah, they are have some issues with programming or designing experience.

I can imagine they are in over their heads. the game seems to use the old engine at its core, with features bloated over course of x3 and rebirth im not sure devs know exactly what the engine itself does at this point... its a lot of bendaids it would seem

[nemesis1982]

I just realized as read forum that many bad behavior, bugs come from a very weak and lame programmatically implementation which I'll describe here, but you can see it for yourself.

If you complain about a lack of quality at least make sure your own complaint follows the quality you hold in such high regard.

So provide proof, references and clearly make your point without any emotional rants.

From what I read you have no expertise to base this assumption on. Nor did you take the time to do a proper analyses!

Please stop polluting the internet! I'll leave this here https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 7985195066

[Terre]

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