classic flight mode?

[Kitty]

People bringing up joystics and hotas. Please just dont.

What ?
I played Freelancer and X2 at the same time. I know what you mean. But I insist. The Joystick and Hotas are not negociable. It is not a question of laser precision (even if you opinion is debatable), it's a matter of pleasure. If Freelancer had Joystick support, I don't know if I'd have even played X3. LAN vs Station building ? Hmm... good question.

So, please, don't tell me what I have to consider as must have. Tell yours, and let us tell ours.

[refuse]

X4 is simulator isn't it?

No. It's just a game. If it was a simulator it would probably use dual joysticks like the space shuttle did. Or maybe a flight yoke and rudder pedals.

really? I glad that you say it. I wrote space simulator to highlited that it is not real.
Therefore it is not important the way I cotroll the game. The importait is for me the enjoying the game. And the best controling for me is keyboard and mouse with invert pitch. Do you maybe the different opinion, but I do not care about it.

[refuse]

Since when is 'classic flight mode' a mouse and keyboard? Joysticks were around for gaming long before mice were. I used a joystick to fly Elite on my old Commodore 64. Joystick and keyboard is 'classic flight mode', not some rodent.

I wrote the classic flight mode, becouse the developers themselves call it in the X3 game. I don't know why, maybe becouse this standard controling is used in 99% PC games over the world, for the years.

[Seanchaidh]

If you play with joystics and hotas you will never be as precise with your aiming as someone with mouse and "Classic Flight Mode".

If I ever saw a real pilot in a real plane using a mouse & WASD keys, I would never fly again. Besides, mouse is best for flying in straight lines and joystick is best for curves. No reason why you can't use both.

Piloting a real plane-- or just flying a flight sim like IL-2 or DCS or SimplePlanes-- is soooooooo different from what you're doing in X games since X3 (not as much X2 and prior, though still substantially different). Mouse is better for point and click aiming (which is most of what you're doing with any urgency in X games) and WASD is just how you use lateral thrusters, while joystick is better for finely controlling roll and pitch. This is why joystick wins for atmospheric flight on craft with weapons that shoot in just one precise direction-- it's not always the best idea to change your flight direction as fast as possible in an airplane like it (generally) is in X3/Rebirth, because an airplane which is pointed in a direction further away from its current flight path will tend to bleed a lot more kinetic energy and has a greater risk of losing control (not to mention the effects of rapid changes in direction on the pilot). Also, the orientation of an airplane will often drift (which is why trim controls exist), and that drift will change based on a number of factors- a joystick is again better at intuitively dealing with that. In X3? Don't gotta worry about any of that. Just turn toward the enemy as fast as possible, fire away, and strafe to dodge shots. It's so completely different!

Also, rolling (instead of yawing) with a mouse tends to break my brain, though I suppose an airplane could control just the elevators and rudder with a mouse, exchanging one issue for another-- but that is silly for another set of reasons.

For these reasons, I'm comfortable saying that X3 and Rebirth both control more like an FPS than a flight sim. And that's fine.

[Killjaeden]

Those who wish to play X4 with mouse and keyboard can sit back and relax, as it has been mentioned a couple of times already that the game interface will be designed with these two input devices in mind.

They say that, but that does not indicate in any way that classic mouse controll would be part of the plan, which was the reason this thread was created...

[X2-Illuminatus]

Those who wish to play X4 with mouse and keyboard can sit back and relax, as it has been mentioned a couple of times already that the game interface will be designed with these two input devices in mind.

They say that, but that does not indicate in any way that classic mouse controll would be part of the plan, which was the reason this thread was created...

If you would read (and quote) my whole post, you would realise that I was replying to something different than the request of having a classic flight mode.

[Killjaeden]

If you would read (and quote) my whole post

I did read it whole, but you didn't quote or respond to anyone in particular, therefore it allowed room for different interpretation.

[zanosg]

If you play with joystics and hotas you will never be as precise with your aiming as someone with mouse and "Classic Flight Mode".

If I ever saw a real pilot in a real plane using a mouse & WASD keys, I would never fly again. Besides, mouse is best for flying in straight lines and joystick is best for curves. No reason why you can't use both.

First of all i dont use WASD. I use mouse for pitch and yaw and I dont roll very often. Yes mouse is best for flying in straight line and thats what the flight in space is. Curves are something you do in atmosphere where there is air. When you are flying in space in one direction you should be able to flip the craft and still fly in that direction backwards provided you shut your engines off. That is why mouse xy works the best. In airplane fligh sims is where you want curves. The idea that airplanes and spacecrafts should be controlled the same is very flawed idea.

[Killjaeden]

The idea the airplanes and spacecrafts should be controlled the same is very flawed idea.

It has been made mainstream by the countless Sci-Fi movies and offsprings which use basically "WW2 aircombat with space backdrop" as mechanic. For good reason too i would say... everything else just wouldn't be as "cinematic". This however includes cockpit props that all use joysticks, because RL fighters have them. Therefore many people associate joysticks as beeing "the true" way to pilot nimble spacecraft, without realising why.

[zanosg]

The idea the airplanes and spacecrafts should be controlled the same is very flawed idea.

It has been made mainstream by the countless Sci-Fi movies and offsprings which use basically "WW2 aircombat with space backdrop" as mechanic. For good reason too i would say... everything else just wouldn't be as "cinematic". This however includes cockpit props that all use joysticks, because RL fighters have them. Therefore many people associate joysticks as beeing "the true" way to pilot nimble spacecraft, without realising why.

I can see that. The classic flight mode allowed me to get away from that nonsense. Im able to jump into M3 or M4 and have crazy fun dogfights because I can flip the craft anyway I want. I dont have to "turn" and follow some Newtonian curves. Thats what Elite is and that ruins the whole game.

[zanosg]

People bringing up joystics and hotas. Please just dont.

What ?

What I meant is please dont argue back. Im sure joystick and hotas will be supported and if you use them good for you but some of us want classic flight mode and there is nothing people can say that will change my mind. I either play the game with classic mode or I dont buy it at all. So I would like the game to have classic flight mode and for devs not be swayed away by joystic and hotas crowd. Thats all.

[SirNukes]

Add me to the list of people wanting the classic flight mode controls in X4. Personally, I would like to see three mouse control schemes:

1) X3:R FPS style, industry standard for first person views, easy for reviewers and newcomers to help them get into the game and give good scores, great for nimble ships and fine aiming in general. This was one of the big things that got me into Reunion years ago.

2) Rebirth style follow-the-mouse-cursor controls, good for medium size ships which don't turn fast, good for periods in dogfights where you need sustained turns for corkscrew maneuvers and similar. Swapping between this and (1) midfight can be really fun in TC/AP where both schemes are available.

3) Point-and-click-for-heading style controls, good for big ships, where one click (probably with a special key) will set a heading and your ship will automatically turn toward that heading while you do other things. The old 'Move to position' commands did something similar, but were buried in a lot of menus and required selecting an end point.

Number 1 is probably the most important of these. If you check metacritic for Rebirth, the short blurbs on the top two reviews (those who gave the game the best scores) call out the disliked navigation/controls.

[Kitty]

If I ever saw a real pilot in a real plane using a mouse & WASD keys, I would never fly again. Besides, mouse is best for flying in straight lines and joystick is best for curves. No reason why you can't use both.

First of all i dont use WASD. I use mouse for pitch and yaw and I dont roll very often. Yes mouse is best for flying in straight line and thats what the flight in space is. Curves are something you do in atmosphere where there is air. When you are flying in space in one direction you should be able to flip the craft and still fly in that direction backwards provided you shut your engines off. That is why mouse xy works the best. In airplane fligh sims is where you want curves. The idea that airplanes and spacecrafts should be controlled the same is very flawed idea.

Well, patient 0, you could be surprised by future cockpits. Current ones are very far from those before WWII. Well, I guess that mouses will never be used, but this is not because of accuracy or anything like that, it's about the mouse flying when things are going bad, while a joystick will stay well in place. I would better bet for a touchscreen, for pens (attached with a short cord!), or for VR gloves than for a mouse in future aircrafts. Well.. touchscreens are here : https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... ly-helpful

Zanosg, I respect your preference, and I'm sure that Egosoft will provide a decent mouse control. I agree that a mouse control can be good enough for a game, even if it's not my taste. It is indeed handy in some situations to select things easily, for example. But when you say that you don't roll often, I understand that you don't use the full potential of your ship. It's up to you. Not using something that gives an advantage to the joystick don't make the mouse better. It makes it sufficient for you.

[Tolmos]

Just throwing in a +1 for the "Classic Flight Mode" request.

When I refer to "Classic Flight Mode", I basically mean old school flight sim controls that act like a Joystick but with your mouse. Without pressing and holding any button, you could pull the mouse down to send your ship up, push your mouse up to make the ship go down, etc etc. Shooting was simply pressing the Left or Right mouse buttons, which would then shoot in whatever direction the turret/craft was currently facing. This was achievable all the way up through X3: Albion Prelude.

For me, the new X Rebirth style of click to move feels a bit clunky, sluggish even. It's like the difference between driving a FWD car and a RWD car. The front wheel drive (click to move in Rebirth) is by far more accurate in its handling, but the rear wheel drive (the flight sim control) simply feels more fun and exciting. It makes flying around as a small fighter much more compelling.

I definitely hope we get to see this control scheme in X4. It would be a major bummer to not get to experience that type of gameplay in the new and improved engine.

[Crellion]

My understanding is that OP would like X4 to feature the same mouse control method that existed in X2, was refined to beautiful effect in X3 Reunion, and was referred to as "Classic Flight Mode" as of Terran Conflict. This mode is defined by response to the movement of the mouse, rather than its resting position.

While "Classic Flight Mode" does respond in the Y axis the same way a joystick would, i.e. pitching up when the mouse is pulled backwards, that isn't its defining feature.

And I agree with OP. X3's classic flight mode was absolute bliss; it made dogfighting a delightfully responsive experience and made the trade-off between the mobility of a fighter and the power of a corvette a very serious consideration. The mouse tracking mode of newer games just can't match up to that. I really hope Egosoft puts it in.

I read 4 pages of thread... This (a couple more peeps describe it accurately, most do not) is the OP's issue. I am not sure I have an opinion myself (though options are always good) - this post is an attempt to promote clarity.

[zanosg]

If I ever saw a real pilot in a real plane using a mouse & WASD keys, I would never fly again. Besides, mouse is best for flying in straight lines and joystick is best for curves. No reason why you can't use both.

First of all i dont use WASD. I use mouse for pitch and yaw and I dont roll very often. Yes mouse is best for flying in straight line and thats what the flight in space is. Curves are something you do in atmosphere where there is air. When you are flying in space in one direction you should be able to flip the craft and still fly in that direction backwards provided you shut your engines off. That is why mouse xy works the best. In airplane fligh sims is where you want curves. The idea that airplanes and spacecrafts should be controlled the same is very flawed idea.

Well, patient 0, you could be surprised by future cockpits. Current ones are very far from those before WWII. Well, I guess that mouses will never be used, but this is not because of accuracy or anything like that, it's about the mouse flying when things are going bad, while a joystick will stay well in place. I would better bet for a touchscreen, for pens (attached with a short cord!), or for VR gloves than for a mouse in future aircrafts. Well.. touchscreens are here : https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... ly-helpful

Zanosg, I respect your preference, and I'm sure that Egosoft will provide a decent mouse control. I agree that a mouse control can be good enough for a game, even if it's not my taste. It is indeed handy in some situations to select things easily, for example. But when you say that you don't roll often, I understand that you don't use the full potential of your ship. It's up to you. Not using something that gives an advantage to the joystick don't make the mouse better. It makes it sufficient for you.

Actually, its much better in my opinion. I can kill twice as many enemies with classic mouse mode vs joystick or mouse follow mode. Actually with mouse follow mode I cant kill anything it seems. This is due to a fact that when in classic mouse mode i can aim precisely and not miss. I would love to play games like Elite but I simply can not control my ship the way I want to and it seems to me all these latest games are going that route. Im playing a video game, not flying a real ship. Give us the ability to control the ship with anything we want. A while ago I came across an article explaining why the latest games dont incorporate this type of control and it came down to people with joysticks and hotas being at disadvantage. So when you have a game like Elite and you do PVP thats where you would have an advantage.


It would be nice if the Devs explained if classic mouse mode will be available or not. I would like to know because I want to pre-order and take advantage of any Pre order bonuses. I understand that we will be able to play the game with a keyboard and mouse however that does not tell me anything about classic mouse mode.

[patient zero]

Yes mouse is best for flying in straight line and thats what the flight in space is. Curves are something you do in atmosphere where there is air.

You are mistaken. If you check the trajectory of any satellite or space vehicle, you will find all of them follow a curved path.

I would better bet for a touchscreen, for pens (attached with a short cord!), or for VR gloves than for a mouse in future aircrafts. Well.. touchscreens are here : https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... ly-helpful

This looks good in the picture but there are too many misdirected commands using touchscreens; i.e. misinterpreting a swipe as a tap and selecting an unwanted link. Also, I would hate to be in orbit around Saturn and find my touchscreen cracked for no apparent reason.

[Commander_K]

Yes mouse is best for flying in straight line and thats what the flight in space is. Curves are something you do in atmosphere where there is air.

You are mistaken. If you check the trajectory of any satellite or space vehicle, you will find all of them follow a curved path.

They are still straight lines. Courtesy of General Relativity. But even ignoring that technicality, orbits take ca. 90 minutes for LEO and upwards from that. For any reasonable game time that's straight.

[patient zero]

They are still straight lines.... For any reasonable game time that's straight.

You are mistaken. Flying in straight lines is okay in a game but it doesn't happen in the real world.

http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm
Notice almost all of the equations contain the radius of a curve or some type of parabolic/hyperbolic function.

Even when an object seems to be falling straight down, the Earth is still moving underneath it causing it's trajectory to curve. There are no straight lines in nature.

[Commander_K]

They are still straight lines.... For any reasonable game time that's straight.

You are mistaken. Flying in straight lines is okay in a game but it doesn't happen in the real world.

http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm
Notice almost all of the equations contain the radius of a curve or some type of parabolic/hyperbolic function.

Even when an object seems to be falling straight down, the Earth is still moving underneath it causing it's trajectory to curve. There are no straight lines in nature.

In a curved space time orbits are straight lines (as in free fall in a curved space).

You would turn less than 4 arminutes/second, meaning on a 10 km trip at 200 m/s you would turn 3 degrees.