so iv heard patch 2.5 is out for devnet5 or somthing!!!! (Now With Changelog!)

General discussions about X Rebirth.

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MAUCorp
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Post by MAUCorp »

Archaeosis wrote:
MAUCorp wrote:2 stations per zone they are not.
2 complexes; each a collection of many many stations.

Small detail, huge implications to the frustrations you imply.

The lack of resources (RMP) are deliberate (IMHO) in order to simulate necessary demand for a considerably important narrative function. Scarcity of resources is exactly the point to whats happening in DeVries. Its Gameplay in neon. Its the reason. The challenge. Don't edit it in. We really don't need to. Actually play through the problem :) Think. Its essentially the bread and butter of the game we paid for and yet so readily dismiss (understandably due to a lack of confidence associated with the buggy release).

Also, you mind unveiling what other name you've used in these forums? Your syntax is familiar and I have a fondness for transparency.
Actually, I find that two fully-expanded stations per zone is a stifling limit, and of course I understand that each has multiple production lines. Why do you seem to assume people aren't taking that into account?

I feel like you're making excuses for the awful implementation of the economy. You seem to be saying that if you think there are problems you're not thinking enough. This rather ignores the fact that the economy is actually horribly broken on a basic, functional level.

If you want to see the broken AI, the bugs where wares are reserved but never traded (which starves the economy), and the fact that stations never make any meaningful profit as some sort of "high difficulty", feel free. I think most people would rather Egosoft fix these crippling issues instead.
The limit isn't actually 2 stations. There are available zones with 4 open build slots. What would you build in a 5th build slot? Aren't you essentially diluting strategic Think by opening up every zone unlimitedly, not to mention understandable engine limitations? A game, any game has to have a limit. Devs aren't Gods.

Is the AI broken? Dunno. Haven't tested it myself. People say so but I haven't seen the proof to solidify the theory. Could it be held back to allow the player some degree of freedom? Has it been held back too much? I'd love to follow a factual discussion that isn't deviated by fear and distrust of Egosofts work every 5 min.

EDit: And let me be clear about one thing: I'm not suggesting the game may not have problems. I'm doing my lil bit to clarify and question errors and misinformation. Mine included.
mohammadm55
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Post by mohammadm55 »

MAUCorp wrote:
Archaeosis wrote:
MAUCorp wrote:2 stations per zone they are not.
2 complexes; each a collection of many many stations.

Small detail, huge implications to the frustrations you imply.

The lack of resources (RMP) are deliberate (IMHO) in order to simulate necessary demand for a considerably important narrative function. Scarcity of resources is exactly the point to whats happening in DeVries. Its Gameplay in neon. Its the reason. The challenge. Don't edit it in. We really don't need to. Actually play through the problem :) Think. Its essentially the bread and butter of the game we paid for and yet so readily dismiss (understandably due to a lack of confidence associated with the buggy release).

Also, you mind unveiling what other name you've used in these forums? Your syntax is familiar and I have a fondness for transparency.
Actually, I find that two fully-expanded stations per zone is a stifling limit, and of course I understand that each has multiple production lines. Why do you seem to assume people aren't taking that into account?

I feel like you're making excuses for the awful implementation of the economy. You seem to be saying that if you think there are problems you're not thinking enough. This rather ignores the fact that the economy is actually horribly broken on a basic, functional level.

If you want to see the broken AI, the bugs where wares are reserved but never traded (which starves the economy), and the fact that stations never make any meaningful profit as some sort of "high difficulty", feel free. I think most people would rather Egosoft fix these crippling issues instead.
The limit isn't actually 2 stations. There are available zones with 4 open build slots. What would you build in a 5th build slot? Aren't you essentially diluting strategic Think by opening up every zone unlimitedly, not to mention understandable engine limitations? A game, any game has to have a limit. Devs aren't Gods.

Is the AI broken? Dunno. Haven't tested it myself. People say so but I haven't seen the proof to solidify the theory. Could it be held back to allow the player some degree of freedom? Has it been held back too much? I'd love to follow a factual discussion that isn't deviated by fear and distrust of Egosofts work every 5 min.

EDit: And let me be clear about one thing: I'm not suggesting the game may not have problems. I'm doing my lil bit to clarify and question errors and misinformation. Mine included.
again plz dont ever go full retard. :evil: :evil:

1. you say you dont know the AI is broken and but haven't tested it, and bash facts of the AI being broken as theories, while there is bunch of mods out there fixing these bad AI. lol

2. man idk if you have played other x games or not but you could literally have as many stations as you wanted, and they were on an older engine. so i guess this new engine is worst then the old one making it go backwards in the amount of stuff it can handle. :shock: :shock: :evil:
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Post by Alan Phipps »

@ mohammadm55: Please stop the personal comments right now. Discuss and disagree with posted matters if you like, but there is no room here for comments like 'EGOshit' or 'retard'. Take note or this will get more serious.
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MAUCorp
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Post by MAUCorp »

I'd like you to drop the retard reference. I understand its from a movie but it can be offensive reading for anyone parenting a special needs child. And I question is necessity.

1. Point me to the data and I'll gladly stand on that side of the fence. The three economies I've played so far by and large functioned ( I'll gladly accept tweaking in regards to resource sinks) Goods move and I've suffered no desperate resource gaps. But I've been actively participating.

Do we actually know issues with the economy are bug related or just switched off for some technical dev-known reason? Are people just breaking their games with savefile tweaking? Sincerely and genuinely educate me with facts.

2. I played X3 into the ground. Bout 4k hours. We couldnt build more than 1 large complex per sector and even then we couldnt revisit it and play around it after all the hard work. The HQ had to be left alone or the sector would divebomb fps. Limitations Rebirth is shedding itself of.
You're being selective with your memory.
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YorrickVander
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Post by YorrickVander »

@MAUcorp from experience the broken reservations are aither an ai bug with the mass traffic or in exe from the direct reserve and execute trade commands. I know execute_trade is bugged and blanks the scripts trade data before the ai script is finished with it in some cases.

edit : both of these commands are exe based not script and not mod related errors
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MAUCorp
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Post by MAUCorp »

Thanks Yorrick. What does that mean? I need help understanding.

So there's an error preventing cargo transportation via mass traffic? Someone also mentioned limits placed on storage? Is that related? Does a bugged exe_trade exist for all Rebirth players or is it discriminate somehow?

I'm curious about implications on gameplay. Once WAI, hows the economy supposed to function and how much is the players influence on the economy affected? Is trade currently FUBAR after a certain point or overly dependent on player interaction?
mohammadm55
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Post by mohammadm55 »

MAUCorp wrote:I'd like you to drop the retard reference. I understand its from a movie but it can be offensive reading for anyone parenting a special needs child. And I question is necessity.

1. Point me to the data and I'll gladly stand on that side of the fence. The three economies I've played so far by and large functioned ( I'll gladly accept tweaking in regards to resource sinks) Goods move and I've suffered no desperate resource gaps. But I've been actively participating.

Do we actually know issues with the economy are bug related or just switched off for some technical dev-known reason? Are people just breaking their games with savefile tweaking? Sincerely and genuinely educate me with facts.

2. I played X3 into the ground. Bout 4k hours. We couldnt build more than 1 large complex per sector and even then we couldnt revisit it and play around it after all the hard work. The HQ had to be left alone or the sector would divebomb fps. Limitations Rebirth is shedding itself of.
You're being selective with your memory.
1. how big of an economy are we talking here? i would love to know how much money you have invested in each of those games you have played.

because iv invested roughly 3.6 billion and im not seeing it.

edit:

my mod list

weldinglaser
galaxystationrange - yorrick is awesome
YorrickAutoTrade - again yorrick is awesome
nidaren_shield_generators
nidaren_stronger_ship_hulls
XR_Nebulas
buttermissions - could not live with out these.
butterranges - could not live with out these
butterrewards - could not live with out these
show_skills
ManualCommandExtension - bad mod i wouldn't recommend.
BuildShipyards
BKUniversalCommMenu
PlayerJumpAnim
Last edited by mohammadm55 on Sat, 26. Jul 14, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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YorrickVander
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Post by YorrickVander »

There are a lot of debug.log errors relating to trade still that I don't know nature of due to number coded error messages not textual descriptive, and at least 50% of these on average pertain to mass traffic trades.

The <execute_trade .. > bug has the potential to leave ware reservations unclosed since it makes the tradeoffer object a null reference in the ai xml. This has obvious implications to the trade globally as the rest of the ai then does not know the trade was not fully completed.

Ware reservations themselves (again a direct call to exe code from the xml) don't apparently work very well. This might be intended or might be a bug, ES are not forthcoming on these issues :( Often a trade ship reserves a transaction that is not still available on arrival. this leads to multiple ships racing for a trade and only the first there can complete it. Again this slows the trade up on a global level.

Finally there is the bug that allows ships to get stuck on the border between temp zones (temporary cells labelled 'empty space' that only exist while a ship is in that area) and the static named zones on the map. (See my numerous posts in public beta for full description and details of the actual code behavior.) This means that trade ships inbound to buy or sell get jammed potentially until the game is closed and restarted blocking their trades (assuming the ware reservation held) until the ai times out or the ship finally unsticks and reaches its destination.

Ideally the economy will basically tick over with no player intervention although it seems designed to need at least some intersystem trade to keep moving (trade, think). Building ships for player (and the throwaway npc built ships) are the main sink, followed by stations for the empire builder playstyle. While ships and stations are built regularly the economy works ok at the moment, trade bugs above excluded.
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MAUCorp
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Post by MAUCorp »

@mohammad
Are you saying you made roughly 3.6b through trade alone? Or you have 3.6b in goods standing around to sell?
All my playthroughs have stocks of goods I can buy/steal. Goods are moving. How much they're all worth I dunno.

@yorrick
Do these errors correct themselves every time you reboot the game? What happens to the errored tradeships after a trade isn't successfully completed?

So if I'm understanding you I maybe seeing less disruptive economic behaviour cause my play sessions are shorter than someone that plays over 2hrs at a time?
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Post by YorrickVander »

I'm not certain on the ware reservation bugs, I assume not though from the numerous bug reports about it. Only the stuck ships have a 100% bug reset afaik on game restart so yeah if you play in short bursts it is possible that you see less disruption. The execute_trade bug is, to me, a grey area as part of it is reset on next trade run (new tradeoffer object, new chance for the command to behave as intended), but again I don't know about failed reservation clearances.
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Post by MAUCorp »

I appreciate the time you're taking to explain this. Is the lack of sm/med ship purchase likely associated with refraining from making mass traffic issues worse? Last Q's, I promise. My kids will be waking up soon. Are all these ships stockpiling goods onboard with every error they stall on?
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YorrickVander
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Post by YorrickVander »

No, but some of the stuck on border ships are. The reserved but never traded wares however are stuck in limbo. Not appearing in station stores, but not paid for either.
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Post by MAUCorp »

Ok one more. Would storage hacking affect any of these errors? Especially those stuck border ships and their reserved wares?
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YorrickVander
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Post by YorrickVander »

Not at all, reserved wares are moved out of storage into digital limbo.
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mohammadm55
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Post by mohammadm55 »

MAUCorp wrote:@mohammad
Are you saying you made roughly 3.6b through trade alone? Or you have 3.6b in goods standing around to sell?
All my playthroughs have stocks of goods I can buy/steal. Goods are moving. How much they're all worth I dunno.

@yorrick
Do these errors correct themselves every time you reboot the game? What happens to the errored tradeships after a trade isn't successfully completed?

So if I'm understanding you I maybe seeing less disruptive economic behavior cause my play sessions are shorter than someone that plays over 2hrs at a time?
i made about 2 billion trough missions, the butter mods should explain it, and 1.6 billion trough trading good like buy/sell and mining different wares. trough ships and not selling my own station wares, i haven't figured out how to sell my own station wares yet.

also you said you only play 2 hours a day, that could be the reason you dont see what i see. i work from home so im always tabbing in and out. i probably play about 10-16 hours a day.
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ybeline
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Post by ybeline »

Hello,

By the way, as Egosoft devs sometimes explicitly name X Rebirth development branches on Steam, you can stay informed by using the Steam Client integrated console. Ask for "app_info_print 2870", scroll down and look for "branches", especially branches description. You might stumble upon things like "2.50 Beta 1" ;)

Regards,

ybeline
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Post by bmtv0957 »

ybeline wrote:Hello,

By the way, as Egosoft devs sometimes explicitly name X Rebirth development branches on Steam, you can stay informed by using the Steam Client integrated console. Ask for "app_info_print 2870", scroll down and look for "branches", especially branches description. You might stumble upon things like "2.50 Beta 1" ;)

Regards,

ybeline
Nice detective work :D

"2.50 Beta 1 - Limited cheats available""

They're adding cheats? Or maybe that's just for debugging purposes for the testers
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Post by vadiolive »

gottaluvchris
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Post by gottaluvchris »

Oh yeah, that's juicy stuff. I may need to rev up the game again since I haven't played in a few weeks.
mohammadm55
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Post by mohammadm55 »

lol yall are good.

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