Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.

[Nova Scotia]

If egosoft release a non steam version of AP it will treat the people who buy it as second class buyers as they will not be able to get any DLC,which in my opion is a sneaky way of trying to get people to use steam.I do not believe they will release a none steam game,the old one

They could release it from there Online Store,they don't have to go the the retail store route and dlc could be from there site as well

But probably not



Freelancer CrossFire 1.9 ,no steam client

[quase]

I think censorship is more of a governmental issue than a Steam issue.

What do you want Valve to do, blatantly defy the laws of the countries they distribute in?

Of course it is a governmental issue in the first place, but with a region controlled game, bound to a platform that controls the content, I can not use 18+ titles without being controlled and in the end even receive censored content. I am well over 18 years old and I do not need a digital babysitter or something that tells me what I can and can not consume!

It is not possible to purchase and activate Dead Island or imported versions of Modern Warfare 2 on Steam for example. The main problem is with Steam, not with the government though because Steam does not have a legal age validation like Postident or something like that.

This issue has nothing to do with X Rebirth I think, but it is still one of the main things that annoy me with Steam.

[Gregorovitch]

Of course it is a governmental issue in the first place, but with a region controlled game, bound to a platform that controls the content, I can not use 18+ titles without being controlled and in the end even receive censored content. I am well over 18 years old and I do not need a digital babysitter or something that tells me what I can and can not consume!

Exactly.

Steam's system is the equivelent of a government introducing smart card driving licences complete with bio-authentication without which your car won't start, and checking your car tax and insurance is valid and you are not banned from driving into the bargain.

It involves introducing elements of intrusion and control into the private sphere without any democratic accountability or redress - precisely the reason why they can do this whereas no democratic government could get away with it.

[dougeye]

i love these arguments that say steam is bad because basicly i want to break the law in my country, egosoft why are you not giving me the ability to break any laws??? lol

[Slashman]

As has been said, an increase of unit sales by 100% doesn't really tell you much about it's benefit towards devs/publishers. A change in turnover/profit would be more interesting.

Publishers never give out specific numbers like that, but Skyrim(a Steamworks game) was consistently at the top of the best seller list since its release in November and maintained that position even throughout the holiday sale(without being discounted for the majority of the sale).

Deus Ex:HR also held top spot for a good long while when it was released. Also a Steamworks game.

The thing about digital distribution is that games continue to make money for the publisher long after release without a large cut going to retail stores. And without the cost of producing more boxed copies. Its a no-brainer that this would be profitable in the long run.

[perkint]

Skyrim(a Steamworks game) was consistently at the top of the best seller list since its release in November and maintained that position even throughout the holiday sale(without being discounted for the majority of the sale).

And? A high profile blockbuster stayed at the top for less than 2 months from release. Doesn't really tell you much! Even if it wasn't discounted for "the majority" of the sale

The thing about digital distribution is that games continue to make money for the publisher long after release without a large cut going to retail stores. And without the cost of producing more boxed copies. Its a no-brainer that this would be profitable in the long run.

No-one is disputing whether it is profitable or not. Or whether digital distribution is a good thing or not! The question is whether it is more profitable to make a game a steam exclusive or not and unfortunately, we do not have the information to confirm or deny that!

Boxed distribution costs are not really relevant (boxed versions are still created) and how much of a cut goes to the high street shop is not really a good argument point because:

1. We don't know profit distribution between shop/publisher/developer/steam except in a couple of isolated examples that have been quoted and probably are individually negotiated for every piece of software.
2. The original discussion was over an issue with Steam and (altho it has gone round in various circles just a couple of times ) not download vs boxed.

I think digital distribution is definitely a good thing, but then I have decent speed, unlimited broadband. I also use Steam. Doesn't mean I still wouldn't prefer something more similar to the choices Egosoft have always previously given us...

Tim

[Gregorovitch]

i love these arguments that say steam is bad because basicly i want to break the law in my country, egosoft why are you not giving me the ability to break any laws??? lol

The arguements have nothing to do with wanting to break the law.

The arguement is that a commercial enterprise is attempting to police what people can and cannot run on their own personal computers. If a national govenrment tried to pass a law that every computer sold must include a piece of software that monitored what programs people run, how they obtained them and what they did with them there would be outrage. In much of europe and north america it would in any case be unconstitutional.

What Stream is doing is worse because a) they are not democratically accountable and b) they are not subject to the same level of scrutiny as a government.

This may seem to some people like nitpicking, quibbling or whining, but the fact is our rights and freedoms are protected by lines in the sand, often expressed in consititions, over which governments and powerfull commercial interests cannot step in persuit of their interests, something they will always seek to do if they think they can get away with it.

IMO, and in that of many others, what Steam does with regard to policing software installation crosses one of those lines. The same applies to many other tech companies activities, the key stroke monitoring software on iphones and other devices is one amongst many other examples.

[AkrionXxarr]

No-one is disputing whether it is profitable or not. Or whether digital distribution is a good thing or not! The question is whether it is more profitable to make a game a steam exclusive or not and unfortunately, we do not have the information to confirm or deny that!

Actually some are. First post on this page: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... start=1620

Boxed distribution costs are not really relevant (boxed versions are still created)

How can you even say that? It may not be as relevant in Egosoft's case but boxed distribution is one of the main reasons why indie devs had such a difficult time before Steam caught on. Just think about it for a few seconds. Not only does the developer have to anticipate how many sales they will make so they don't over or under-produce (think overproduction of Atari's Pacman and ET) which in of its self can cost money if one wants to hire a professional to do the estimation, they also have to front storage and shipping costs. And with retail turnover being lower (not to mention costs for advertising that Steam will do for free) having to rely on boxed sales is a huge deal.

[Zippo342]

Nova Scotia

do you only watch TV that has no adverts in it?? think about it for a second. its not as if new game advert pop up infront of you mid game, or you dock at a space station and get a message saying thank you for using steam..... new games are now availbale for purchase, like hide and seek with suzie lol

"Egosoft would like to thank you for the purchase of this game"

Imagine that station announcement morphed into "Egosoft would like to thank you for the purchase of this game on Steam" in Rebirth >:D

Seriously if it did, it's your choice on whether or not to continue playing it. Egosoft already have their little audio plug and got away with it.

I think censorship is more of a governmental issue than a Steam issue.

What do you want Valve to do, blatantly defy the laws of the countries they distribute in?

Of course it is a governmental issue in the first place, but with a region controlled game, bound to a platform that controls the content, I can not use 18+ titles without being controlled and in the end even receive censored content. I am well over 18 years old and I do not need a digital babysitter or something that tells me what I can and can not consume!

It is not possible to purchase and activate Dead Island or imported versions of Modern Warfare 2 on Steam for example. The main problem is with Steam, not with the government though because Steam does not have a legal age validation like Postident or something like that.

This issue has nothing to do with X Rebirth I think, but it is still one of the main things that annoy me with Steam.

I originally bought the Orange Box when it came out, but I was stationed in Germany. Local laws forbade them from showing any violence against people, so when I played TF2 all I saw when I shot people was toys popping out.

Steam very well could not have released the violent version in Germany or they would have been banned in that country. If you think that they can't ban them, they can. Germany uses a special internet registry that they control as do some other countries, removing URLs and IPs from the list would pretty much make Steam unreachable in that country. Do you really think they should have done it anyways for the player, only to have the player lose access to their games? Steam is not just protecting themselves, they are protecting your investment as that further protects themselves from civil suits.

[perkint]

No-one is disputing whether it is profitable or not.

Actually some are. First post on this page: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... start=1620

Actually, he was advocating Steam as being evil and having a long term plan leading to the downfall of most software development, not whether it was actually currently profitable or not!

Boxed distribution costs are not really relevant (boxed versions are still created)

How can you even say that?

Because, as I said, the debate is about Steam and not digital downloads! The advantages you suggest are those of digital distribution, not exclusive to Steam!

Tim

[AkrionXxarr]

Actually, he was advocating Steam as being evil and leading to the downfall of most software development, not whether it was actually profitable or not!

So claims over developers best interest has nothing to do with profitability?

Because, as I said, the debate is about Steam and not digital downloads! The advantages you suggest are those of digital distribution, not exclusive to Steam!

The question you were bringing to light was whether it is more profitable to make a game steam exlcusive or not, then went on to say that boxed distribution is irrelevant. I'm here to say it's probably the least irrelevant factor. With Steam exclusive vs Steam + Standalone Boxed release as an example, how can boxed distribution be irrelevant?

[perkint]

Actually, he was advocating Steam as being evil and leading to the downfall of most software development, not whether it was actually profitable or not!

So claims over developers best interest has nothing to do with profitability?

Not when he's suggesting bad fortunes as a result of actions yet to be taken by Steam, as part of an unknown and possible/improbable plan.

The question you were bringing to light was whether it is more profitable to make a game steam exlcusive [...] Steam exclusive vs Steam + Standalone Boxed release as an example, how can boxed distribution be irrelevant?

Because Steamworks or SteamWorks vs boxed only are not the only options

Tim

[AkrionXxarr]

Because Steamworks or SteamWorks vs boxed only are not the only options

So how does that make boxed sales irrelevant? :/

[perkint]

Because SteamWorks is not the only option for a boxed release and Steam is not the only option for an online release. Therefore why does the profit distribution between retailer, publisher and developer (or in a SteamWorks case, Steam, retailer, publisher and developer) have relevance in a pro/con Steam exclusive discussion?

Unless you want to add that the devs probably see less money from a SteamWorks boxed sale than a non SteamWorks boxed sale due to the fact that Steam probably take a cut of the money there, as well! Altho, as I said earlier, we don't know anything about the percentage payments in the case of DeepSilver/Egosoft...

Tim

[Deleted User]

Maybe because retail versions still require steam-works and all that it entails?

Rendering the entire point of buying retail moot?

[perkint]

Rendering the entire point of buying retail moot?

Not completely moot - quite a few people have said they prefer to have a physical box/disk/manual/poster/whatever happens to be bundled

Tim

[Deleted User]

Rendering the entire point of buying retail moot?

Not completely moot - quite a few people have said they prefer to have a physical box/disk/manual/poster/whatever happens to be bundled

Tim

Granted. But how long before even that is replaced with a pdf?

[Jumee]

"Egosoft would like to thank you for the purchase of this game"

hey I like the fact that they say that besides they dont say this game they say "our product"

[Hrodeth]

I dont mind steam. It's in-game overlay is useful. and its easy access to games is good for finding new stuff. Lotsa sales too.

What I dont want is something similar to what Ubisoft done with Assassins Creed. Not only does it need steam, it needs it's own client thing to run at the same time.

Im all for steam. Plus im terrible with discs.

Agreed.

I tolerate steam because it isn't intrusive. The interface is kept clean and simple. Because of that, it has grown on me over the years.

Ubisoft is doing that, because it considers itself a big competitor; All of them are following in Blizzard's footsteps (battlenet) for game delivery over an in-house digital platform. Origin, for EA.

The problem is...Battlenet makes sense from the tournament history blizzard has with its games. But with others it's just an inconvenience.

Not to mention Ubisoft is the worst company in the world. They rescue dying franchises and butcher them. And we all know how dysfunctional their DRM methods are. That's about it.

[Nova Scotia]

Well all I got to say is

good debate ,does seem to go round and round though.

Thanks the all members for your help and companionship over the years and a special thanks to all the Moders,is that a word