possible alternates to beam weapons

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

They were intended to use up energy upon use however due to a bug they can be fired with 0% energy by the player from any gun the player occupies (forward battery or turret cockpits). This does not seem to be intentional behaviour.

This is not a bug that I have seen, I guess it happens if you try to set the bullet life too small (which is completely avoidable).

Not to mention that in the original vanilla configuration they are not insta-hit Damage Over Time weapons. They are insta-hit insta-damage weapons. Thus making them very very unbalanced to the rest of the weaponry present.

That depends on your interpretation of insta-damage, but this goes into the mechanics of beam weapons so I point you towards that thread for further discussion of this point.

[Killjaeden]

problem is that it will be difficult/impossible to get the same look with a normal bullet.
You would need a bullet with the same look as the beam. Ok obviously not that difficult. But it would have to be extremely long (in other words, as long as you want its range) because it does not grow like a beam.

1) extremely long stuff that consists only of a few polies is a big performance sucker.
2) an extremely long beam is extremely thing, which is also very problematic for an engine

3) the beam might not dissapear once it hits something, so it goes "into the hitpoint" and therefore you might be able to see "the end" of the beam, which then looks like a very long laser instead.

4)the beam hast to be fast (because it looks odd otherwise), but then the only thing you can see is a very short *zap* and thats it.

Everything is unbalanced in the hands of the player. If you want to talk about balance then better compare AI against each other.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Actually most beams are 8 planes, and are stretched to target, they are not repeated.

You are right about the number of planes, but I think you are wrong about the stretching given the shape of the bullet (which is almost pyramid/conical like in it's convex hull). Although, in-game it may be quite difficult to tell the difference (you would probably need access to source code or a confirmation from Egosoft to confirm it either way). If the bullet is stretched, then I would expect to see rendering artifacts when the beams are exceptionally long due to some triangles becoming extremely thin as a result, it looks more like to me that the model is iteratively repeated along a beam vector.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

4)the beam hast to be fast (because it looks odd otherwise), but then the only thing you can see is a very short *zap* and thats it.

I think that is what some people are looking for.

Everything is unbalanced in the hands of the player. If you want to talk about balance then better compare AI against each other.

Not 100% true IMO, but in the main you are correct. It is possible to make Egosoft Beams have the same performance with the AI as they do with the player, but there is the additional issue with AI control of ships and turrets which some scripts like MARS try to address.

[TrixX]

They were intended to use up energy upon use however due to a bug they can be fired with 0% energy by the player from any gun the player occupies (forward battery or turret cockpits). This does not seem to be intentional behaviour.

This is not a bug that I have seen, I guess it happens if you try to set the bullet life too small (which is completely avoidable).

If you haven't see this behaviour, just change a ship to have Beam capabilities in the forward battery (player controlled not turret) and then equip it. Then fire away until everything in the sector is dead. There is no prevention of the beams from firing on 0% energy. If there was a minimum threshold that beams worked at (say 20-30% energy, this would be negated partially (if not entirely), however this doesn't exist and I'm sure there are other ways to simulate it, but current implementation doesn't allow for it.

Not to mention that in the original vanilla configuration they are not insta-hit Damage Over Time weapons. They are insta-hit insta-damage weapons. Thus making them very very unbalanced to the rest of the weaponry present.

That depends on your interpretation of insta-damage, but this goes into the mechanics of beam weapons so I point you towards that thread for further discussion of this point.

You can quit bringing up your thread in this one. You stated incorrect details, I corrected them that is all. The damage in vanilla is applied instantly. That isn't open to interpretation it is a fact. Damage over time and instantly applied damage are pretty self-explanatory.

Actually most beams are 8 planes, and are stretched to target, they are not repeated.

You are right about the number of planes, but I think you are wrong about the stretching given the shape of the bullet (which is almost pyramid/conical like in it's convex hull). Although, in-game it may be quite difficult to tell the difference (you would probably need access to source code or a confirmation from Egosoft to confirm it either way). If the bullet is stretched, then I would expect to see rendering artifacts when the beams are exceptionally long due to some triangles becoming extremely thin as a result, it looks more like to me that the model is iteratively repeated along a beam vector.

I have confirmed this in testing with different bullet types and textures used. The beams stretch. If that would put extra load on the gfx rendering process (not sure it would but it could) it may be another reason why beams are a PITA.
The fact some are conical actually is more evidence as if they are conical how on earth can they stack end to end. Oh and yes initially while looking at beams we (the XTL team) thought they possibly stacked too.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

They were intended to use up energy upon use however due to a bug they can be fired with 0% energy by the player from any gun the player occupies (forward battery or turret cockpits). This does not seem to be intentional behaviour.

This is not a bug that I have seen, I guess it happens if you try to set the bullet life too small (which is completely avoidable).

If you haven't see this behaviour, just change a ship to have Beam capabilities in the forward battery (player controlled not turret) and then equip it. Then fire away until everything in the sector is dead. There is no prevention of the beams from firing on 0% energy. If there was a minimum threshold that beams worked at (say 20-30% energy, this would be negated partially (if not entirely), however this doesn't exist and I'm sure there are other ways to simulate it, but current implementation doesn't allow for it.

Beams have the same firing restrictions as any other laser, the only difference potentially being that the applied damage on low energy possibly scales better. Just try equiping multiple Beam lasers with high per bullet energy demand (c/f my AWRM Enh/Adv Beam weapons) and you will witness that they do actually stop firing when low on energy. The upper limit of how many can fire in such circumstances is only limited by the recharge of the ship you are in. Same as any other laser.

Not to mention that in the original vanilla configuration they are not insta-hit Damage Over Time weapons. They are insta-hit insta-damage weapons. Thus making them very very unbalanced to the rest of the weaponry present.

That depends on your interpretation of insta-damage, but this goes into the mechanics of beam weapons so I point you towards that thread for further discussion of this point.

You can quit bringing up your thread in this one. You stated incorrect details, I corrected them that is all. The damage in vanilla is applied instantly. That isn't open to interpretation it is a fact. Damage over time and instantly applied damage are pretty self-explanatory.

Prove it is all I can say... Paul has already stated in the CMOD thread that Beam lasers aggregate their damage over the life of the bullet, and from my experience this is true (whether either AI or player control). The difference between AI and player control seems to be just how the Rate of Fire parameter gets treated (as explained in my thread).

WRT to your "quit bringing up your thread" comment, I would remind you of forum etiquette. I only bring up "my thread" (and will continue to do so) where relevant so as to try and keep this thread on topic (alternate modable implementations).

[Jack08]

Beams have the same firing restrictions as any other laser, the only difference potentially being that the applied damage on low energy possibly scales better. Just try equiping multiple Beam lasers with high per bullet energy demand (c/f my AWRM Enh/Adv Beam weapons) and you will witness that they do actually stop firing when low on energy. The upper limit of how many can fire in such circumstances is only limited by the recharge of the ship you are in. Same as any other laser.

No Rodger, Lasers with the Beam flag can fire indefinitely with 0% energy so long as they were initialized with the required energy they need to start with and the player is in controll of the cockpit this has already been proven/

Prove it is all I can say... Paul has already stated in the CMOD thread that Beam lasers aggregate their damage over the life of the bullet, and from my experience this is true (whether either AI or player control). The difference between AI and player control seems to be just how the Rate of Fire parameter gets treated (as explained in my thread).

DoT weapons apply there damage even after the bullet has hit and expired - with no further energy cost

Beam weapons are NOT DoT weapons because the beam weapons will not continue to cause damage when the beam is not hitting the target

Therefor Beam weapons are Channeled, and not DoT

WRT to your "quit bringing up your thread" comment, I would remind you of forum etiquette. I only bring up "my thread" (and will continue to do so) where relevant so as to try and keep this thread on topic (alternate modable implementations).

Constantly linking to you thread is in itself off topic as it is not relevant to this thread - i can understand once or twice - but not every second post

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

[OT]This is really a mechanics discussion but...

Beams have the same firing restrictions as any other laser, the only difference potentially being that the applied damage on low energy possibly scales better. Just try equiping multiple Beam lasers with high per bullet energy demand (c/f my AWRM Enh/Adv Beam weapons) and you will witness that they do actually stop firing when low on energy. The upper limit of how many can fire in such circumstances is only limited by the recharge of the ship you are in. Same as any other laser.

No Roger (EDIT - no d in my name), Lasers with the Beam flag can fire indefinitely with 0% energy so long as they were initialized with the required energy they need to start with and the player is in controll of the cockpit this has already been proven.

Well all I can say is that it must be a misconception based on perceived evidence. Beams will only persist beyond last "energy draw" for the duration of the bullet. Thus if the duration is sufficiently long it can give the perception of constant firing even when out of energy.[/OT]

DoT weapons apply there damage even after the bullet has hit and expired
Beam weapons are NOT DoT weapons because the beam weapons will not continue to cause damage over time when the beam is not hitting the target
Therefor Beam weapons are Channeled, and not DoT

Damage is applied over the time of the beam contact so technically DoT is a more accurate description than insta-damage but I do like your "Channelled " description better (even if it is less descriptive to the lay person).

Damage over time (DoT) is really an overused term to apply to multiple concepts. The type of DoT damage you describe is what I would call a burn effect.

[OT]

WRT to your "quit bringing up your thread" comment, I would remind you of forum etiquette. I only bring up "my thread" (and will continue to do so) where relevant so as to try and keep this thread on topic (alternate modable implementations).

Constantly linking to you thread is in itself off topic as it is not relevant to this thread - i can understand once or twice - but not every second post

Where discussions overlap there will be inherently a need to cross-reference (I hate repeating myself as do most people). And protests or discussions wrt the nature of other peoples posts are better served by a PM rather than blasting them in public (as per forum rules I might add)[/OT]

[Jack08]

Well all I can say is that it must be a misconception based on perceived evidence. Beams will only persist beyond last "energy draw" for the duration of the bullet. Thus if the duration is sufficiently long it can give the perception of constant firing even when out of energy.

It is not a misconception
It is not precised evidence

I have tested this myself many times over
Beam lasers can fire constantly with 0 energy - bypassing both energy drain and bullet lifetime

Ive setup test cases in the past and PROVED this
Please stop dispersing incorrect information

No Roger (EDIT - no d in my name),

Was this really necessary?... i do not care to argue fact or fiction any further so i wont be posting again

[TrixX]

PM Sent...

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Well all I can say is that it must be a misconception based on perceived evidence. Beams will only persist beyond last "energy draw" for the duration of the bullet. Thus if the duration is sufficiently long it can give the perception of constant firing even when out of energy.

It is not a misconception
It is not precised evidence

I have tested this myself many times over
Beam lasers can fire constantly with 0 energy - bypassing both energy drain and bullet lifetime

Ive setup test cases in the past and PROVED this
Please stop dispersing incorrect information

Did you take into account the laser recharge of the ship you were in?

[Jack08]

Did you take into account the laser recharge of the ship you were in?

i set the laser recharge to 0 - and the 8 beam lasers were able to sustain indefinitely

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Did you take into account the laser recharge of the ship you were in?

i set the laser recharge to 0

Hmmm... well that is not a legitimate test case really as there are no ships with 0 laser recharge (who knows what features Egosoft implmented for that special case).

I have tested 8 high energy drain beam lasers on an Xtra M7 and they do stop firing when low on energy.

[TrixX]

Did you take into account the laser recharge of the ship you were in?

i set the laser recharge to 0

Hmmm... well that is not a legitimate test case really as there are no ships with 0 laser recharge (who knows what features Egosoft implmented for that special case).

But it does prove the point nicely. Can set all the ships using beams to 0 recharge and they don't recharge strangely enough. It's an adequate test of the issue with beams.

Why are you being so contentious on something that will take you all of five minutes with X3 Editor 2 and the game to find out. You can test with 0, normal and anything else. The issue remains beams under player control do not work as intended. Unless the intention was to have a weapon with unlimited ammo and therefore unlimited destructive ability ingame. Maybe this is why there are no beam forges to get more so the only ones ingame are those spawned on jobs ships, even then they are rarely used, if ever.

I have tested 8 high energy drain beam lasers on an Xtra M7 and they do stop firing when low on energy.

Hmmm... well that is not a legitimate test case really as none of the Xtra ships are from the vanilla game are they

Are you testing using CMOD or vanilla?

[Mizuchi]

....technically DoT is a more accurate description than insta-damage but I do like your "Channelled " description better (even if it is less descriptive to the lay person).

I doubt you need to worry about that.

I think it's a given that anyone interested in this discussion at all will at least have some grasp of the (game) mechanical concepts of "Damage Over Time" and "Channeled".

Besides, with the surge in MMO popularity, pretty much everyone and their dog knows what those terms mean now.

Especially Mages.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I have tested 8 high energy drain beam lasers on an Xtra M7 and they do stop firing when low on energy.

Hmmm... well that is not a legitimate test case really as none of the Xtra ships are from the vanilla game are they

Ok, if this is slightly tongue in cheek I get the basic point but I have not seen a single Vanilla ship - except for some placeholders in the data file - with 0 regen thus other hard-coded factors could be in play there. Also, how many beam weapons are actually accessable in vanilla, you could argue (tenuously) that any test with modded kit is not legitimate.

The specific Xtra ship test case I referred to was Terran Longsword Mk2 (recharge of 1395.1 and a max battery of 62000) with 8 AWRM Experimental FBC which have an energy draw of 1755 per bullet wtih a refire rate of 142.9 per minute. (Available from my AWRM/Xtra Start Pack).

But I have also executed numerous similar tests including most recently using Enh./Adv. KEs on the Kha'ak ships.

One aspect that may cause confusion in the 0/low energy case is that the player's manned cockpit seems to take preference in claiming weapon energy thus other turrets will become stocatic in firing if the player is attempting to fire their controlled guns while the ship is low on energy.

Are you testing using CMOD or vanilla?

Vanilla balanced AWRM, in fact in the next Vanilla balanced AWRM release I am going to address the issue with bullet times not matching refire intervals across the board and thus giving different performance in AI and Player hands.
[OT]

Besides, with the surge in MMO popularity, pretty much everyone and their dog knows what those terms mean now.

Especially Mages.

Channeled is not a term I have come across in my MMO experience (at least not in the way we are using it here), and I doubt if I am alone on this. Needless to say, the point of terminology use is a bit moot.[/OT]
The general sentiment is we are in agreement that hard-coded beam weapons are a "damage per second of contact" type weapon rather than "damage per impact".

[paulwheeler]

I'd like to back up the point about beams continuously firing even when the energy has run out. This is what I found too when they are fired manually.

Basically if you keep your finger on the trigger, then they never stop - a massive, massive bug for beams in my opinion.

However, this doesn't appear to be the case with the repair laser so god knows whats going on... I guess it could have been that the recharge was just high enough to keep them going, but I doubt it.

[Mizuchi]

I'd like to back up the point about beams continuously firing even when the energy has run out. This is what I found too when they are fired manually.

I imagine it was mostly so that the Laser Towers never ran out of energy, with Egosoft figuring that as beam weapons weren't really intended for player use, there was little point in wasting development time on making them work manual use in mind.

That's just speculation, naturally.

Considering that the repair laser was intended for heavy player use, it makes a certain kind of sense though (although that doesn't explain the rare laser drops in Kha'ak sectors, but I guess they're just perks).

Needless to say, the point of terminology use is a bit moot.

Well, I wouldn't say it's moot because you say it's moot, but that'd just be engaging in more pedantry than I'm willing to do.

We'll just have to concede that our respective video-gaming experiences have exposed us to these terms (and concepts) in different ways, and agree to disagree on what mostly is a trivial point.

[paulwheeler]

Its not to do with laser towers as the energy is still drained and if you take your finger off the trigger it wont refire. But if you keep the trigger held you get a perpetual beam, even when the energy reaches zero.

When the AI fires a beam it all works fine as its a single hit of the trigger. Its only a problem when the trigger is held so only becomes an issue when you fire them manually.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

When the AI fires a beam it all works fine as its a single hit of the trigger. Its only a problem when the trigger is held so only becomes an issue when you fire them manually.

That is bizaar, because I have found the beams obey the energy demand principles (even under Player control - and from quite extensive testing). It would be interesting to know the stats of the weapons and ships that you have tested it with.

EDIT: Also you may want to try using my ATCS script in order to monitor available energy on the fly (if you have not already got something like that).