[TC] Why does training marines take such a ridiculous amount of time?

[sleepy_head]

The easiest prey is actually the Tyr / Odin pair, since they have huge shields and react slowly to the attack.

I have a funny story. A couple weeks back I was trying to cap this Tyr. I made an ugly mess during the set up, launched my pods and jumped to the gate in the same sector. Then as I watched my marine's progress in the "r" screen, I noted that the Tyr's shield was going 5% ... 6% ... 7%. I thought to myself, oh heck they are toast, get ready to reload. But for some reason I just waited and watched. And suddenly, I heard "get ready for pressurization" (or whatever), and then ALL 20 marines started the fighting phase...when the shield of the Tyr ticked from 7% to 8%!

To this day I have no idea how on earth that was possible.

[StarTroll]

It happens to me from time to time too, I guess When they say their pressurization thingie, they might already be halfway in the ship / out of shield danger.
I know for sure that the shield must be below 5% to start the boarding, and that the safety level is between 6% and 7% during the hull cutting.

[Rive]

The hardest in M7M boarding ops is when your target is brittle, with such low shields it goes back above 6% way too quicly, such as most TMs, M6s and to some extent the TLs, especially the AL (from 1MJ to 450 MJ at max seen in my game).

IMHO there is no actual rule against using drones against the shield while the M7M is waiting to deploy the marines

And IIRC the small ships has ten percen limit, not five.

[Alan Phipps]

Here are my thoughts on how to 'improve' boarding in vanilla and reduce the perceived frustrations. Starting with 'spacewalk'.

1. Have a dedicated launch all marines/Piracy hotkey that always works and on one keypress after prior set-up. Let the Player take the consequences if they launch in the wrong place/time or the target shields are too high when they arrive, but also so that the Player can launch if he has the expectation that the shields will be low enough by their arrival.

2. Let TM launch marines for 'opportunity' light boarding purposes.

3. Let the hotkey launch up to all 5 marines as one single group from M6/TM. TPs to launch 2 closely consecutive groups both normally of 5.

4. Fix the marines selected for Ops feature so that it always works and once made stays on that selection between Ops until changed by the Player or marines are changed.

5. Only allow multiples of 5 as the limits to marines that can enter and fight on ships rather than the holding capability+1. Adjust the deck survival/core reached requirements on targets accordingly.

6. Have a variable target extension/tuning degradation due to hacking success (based on hacking capability vs core protection) rather than a straight mainly random go/no-go situation.

7. Let boarding carry the same race reputation penalties as ship destruction.

For M7M/pods, I would like 4, 5, 6 & 7 to apply and be able to launch pods regardless of target shields at time of launch, also losing the random pod losses on target contact in an otherwise good boarding situation. Remote or Barrage fire of pods should load 5 rather than 4 marines per pod.

I know this is all unlikely now but this is my opinion anyway.

[Nanook]

....For M7M/pods, I would like 4, 5, 6 & 7 to apply and be able to launch pods regardless of target shields at time of launch...

Not sure if you're aware of this, but since 2.5, you can give the M7M the 'piracy' command to launch marines, and it will do so only after the target's shields are low enough. This allows the player to fly another ship, usually to do the shield lowering, while the M7M awaits the opportunity to launch its marines. I would like to see this same technique applied to boarding via M6/TP rather than the 'launch no matter what' that you suggest. I could see the latter leading to even more angry threads on these forums.

And I totally agree with your hotkey suggestion. 'Difficulty by interface' is a terrible design decision, IMO.

[StarTroll]

The hardest in M7M boarding ops is when your target is brittle, with such low shields it goes back above 6% way too quicly, such as most TMs, M6s and to some extent the TLs, especially the AL (from 1MJ to 450 MJ at max seen in my game).

IMHO there is no actual rule against using drones against the shield while the M7M is waiting to deploy the marines

And IIRC the small ships has ten percen limit, not five.

And that's why since I started capping AL (thanks to sleepyhead's problems ) I keep 10 drones Mk II in my Squid Rage, usually for a AL 6 should be enough to keep lower the shields and keep them down to 0 whils enduring no hull damage.

[Alan Phipps]

@ Nanook: The problem with autolaunch on low shields is that you are setting the conditions for the marine/pod launch only and not for its arrival. I want to be able to launch the marines into an 'ambush' position and then attack the shields at the right time by whatever means I wish. In the case of pods this would be like launching x amount of missiles and immediately the pods, all before the target even knows it is being attacked!

[Nanook]

@ Nanook: The problem with autolaunch on low shields is that you are setting the conditions for the marine/pod launch only and not for its arrival. I want to be able to launch the marines into an 'ambush' position and then attack the shields at the right time by whatever means I wish....

But what's the advantage to doing this? You won't really help pod survival, since any NPC ship is automatically going to shoot down any missile that targets it, which includes your pods, no matter they're friend or foe. I know, I've attempted sneak attacks many times and always been thwarted by the NPC's turret AI. It's always best to have the target's turrets fully engaged elsewhere before launching your pods. If you launch your marines at a target before attacking it, they'll most certainly target your pods first and shoot them down once they're within range.

[Alan Phipps]

Not if your ambush position is deliberately selected to be head-on. Also by definition of purpose and in my example the shield suppression missile salvo is going to arrive just before the pods and the turrets will be/have been looking elsewhere even if they can bear at all.

PS: I'm ashamed to say I got through the Duke's missions with minimal Paranid rep loss by doing lots of successful sneak attacks on their capitals.

[sleepy_head]

Not sure if you're aware of this, but since 2.5, you can give the M7M the 'piracy' command to launch marines, and it will do so only after the target's shields are low enough.

This does not always work. In particular, this command is extremely buggy with the Sirokos. Sometimes it will work as you expect. Sometimes the M7M will just sit there with its thumb up its nose. Sometimes it will launch SOME of the marines only, and the bug applies to all the launch methods, from the "Piracy" menu choice, to the 2 "Additional Command" choices as well.

[Nanook]

....
PS: I'm ashamed to say I got through the Duke's missions with minimal Paranid rep loss by doing lots of successful sneak attacks on their capitals.

And just perhaps that's why there's no hotkey for this. The game allows you to be sneaky, but doesn't make it easy on you. Sounds reasonable to me.

[Nanook]

Not sure if you're aware of this, but since 2.5, you can give the M7M the 'piracy' command to launch marines, and it will do so only after the target's shields are low enough.

This does not always work. In particular, this command is extremely buggy with the Sirokos. Sometimes it will work as you expect. Sometimes the M7M will just sit there with its thumb up its nose. Sometimes it will launch SOME of the marines only, and the bug applies to all the launch methods, from the "Piracy" menu choice, to the 2 "Additional Command" choices as well.

I haven't personally seen this bug, although I admit to not having used the Sirokos. If you think you've found a bug then you really need to post it in the Public Beta Testing forum, as it's much more likely to be looked at there. This includes all the other bugs/problems you've found with boarding. Otherwise, the devs may never know these issues exist.

And to prevent any misunderstanding, let me state that I'm not associated with Egosoft in any way other than being a volunteer moderator. I'm just another gamer, like you, who has gotten a lot out of these forums over the years and decided to give a little bit back to the community with my time. So don't expect me to report your bugs to the devs. That needs to be done by those experiencing the problems, such as yourself. And I hope you do, so that those issues have a chance of being fixed.

[Cursed Ghost]

hi all

Strictly speaking the following is not a bug but I feel that the implementation is so poor that it might as well be because the effect is the same aka making boarding an unusable game function

Where to start

1.) Troops take to long to train so when you loose troops it takes days real time to replace them this is an unacceptably long time that renders boarding useless and extremely frustrating I should not have to wait days real time to fully train a batch of troops or to replace losses

2.) Since the 2.5 patch the amount of troops that are needed for boding opps was increased however the number of troops ships can hold was not which renders most boarding capable ships unfit for purpose as they cant hold enough troops to get the job done again I shouldn’t need to bring in multipul ships to conduct a boarding operation this just makes a complicated, tricky and frustrating process even worse

Further more then needs to be a check put in place so if you don’t have enough troops to conduct a boarding opp you will get an error message telling you don’t have enough troops

3.) Boarding by space suite need reworking because most ships are impossible to board this way because your troops can’t catch the ship

Therefore either

a.) there needs to be a way to make ships stop moving when conducting boarding opps so your troops can catch the ship

b.) all ships capable of conducting boarding opps should be able to use boarding pods and boarding pods should be an unlimited integrated item and boarding by space suite should be done away with

c.) or your troops space suits need a serious speed upgrade say a minimal of 150kmph

4.) The AI that controls launching of your troops needs fixing because I shouldn’t have to issue the boarding command 5 or 6 time before the troops will actually launch

[StarTroll]

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=281597

Most of what you say is discussed there.

[Nanook]

So let's move it there, shall we?

Done.

[Xander Cade]

Something I've never understood is the limitations of the TM.

AFAIK it's the only class of ship that can't collect wares. Sure, I suppose the idea is that collecting wares during combat should be risky, but it's a moot point when you can have Falcons or Keas, both of which are faster and more combat capable than a TM, do the job. A TM is a military transport, collecting useful debris on a battlefield is one of the roles it is meant for.

More to the point, you can use a TP for boarding operations but you can't use a TM. Since, by definition, one is a civilian ship and the other is a military ship, I can only assume that somewhere along the line someone mixed up their acronyms and typed TP, rather than TM, for the innately military function of boarding. You can't even use the cost of a TM as an argument against allowing boarding since there are two free TPs available, both of which are easily accessible early on from most starts.

I would like to see the Advanced (or was it Prototype?) Chokaro enabled as a mini-carrier and the Boa, Pleco, Helios and Zephyrus lose their docking capacity (whether halved or lost altogether) in exchange for more Marines, the ability to Collect Wares and maybe even the ability to fire Boarding Pods from the forward turrets (well, OK that might be going a little far).

Example:
Chokaro - 3 ships, 10 Marines.
Adv. Chokaro - 6 ships, 1250 cargo, 140 m/s, 5 Marines.
Magnetar - 4 ships, 5 Marines
Pelican - 4 ships, 5 Marines
Caravel - Boarding Pods (and the ability to cap Player Ships
), 2 ships, 10 Marines.
Boa - 3 Ships, 10 Marines.
Helios - 3 ships, 10 Marines.
Pleco - 0 Ships, 15 marines.
Zephyrus - 2 ships, 10 Marines, Boarding Pods, 120 m/s.

[sleepy_head]

(warning - rantish post below)

I have said this in many threads, I think the entire concept of these boarding pods is flawed. It led to so many problems, awkwardness and quirks its not even funny.

Eliminate all boarding pods. Allow people to knock down a shield and use a transporter device, or a special military version of it, to beam marines over.

In one stroke you get rid of numerous problems :
1. You no longer need to worry about all your pods not arriving simultaneously so the marines cutting hulls early end up slaughtered, something the players have very little control over.

2. You no longer need to worry about the target ship turning, or rolling, or swivelling to avoid other ships, friendlies, asteriods or debris, thereby causing your careful alignment of Front-Launch to go bad, again the movement of the target being something the players have very little control over.

3. Suddenly ALL ships can be equally useful for boarding, instead of having to create a whole new class of ship called M7M just so this boarding pod concept can be shoe-horned in.

4. People no longer have to waste time reloading over and over just because a shot from a flak ends up taking out 4 or 5 marines that they have spent millions and days to train. Lets face it, when marines are DESIGNED to be such a pain to train and so expensive, most people will reload. So why create a process that adds un-fun reloadings to a game feature that is supposed to be enjoyable?

5. You no longer need to shop for boarding pods, something so useful and frequently used but somehow the players are not allowed to produce, and also something that was deliberately made to not be produced by any npc factories en mass, forcing you to just wait and buy them One Or Two At A Time. If it is not a good idea to have Tomahawk missiles or Flails or Shadows or any other missiles to have this kind of absurd artificial limitation, neither is it for boarding pods. Yes, I'm well aware that we can use Buy at Best Price or CLS to *get around* these limitations, but it does make one wonder why such petty limitations were designed in in the first place.

6. You no longer have the r******* situation where pods fired can be seen spiralling and circling a ship, going too fast to hit it, but with manueverability too low to turn properly to land. It is as pathetic as seeing a fast M3 trying repeatedly and unsuccessfully to collect ware, only to end up circling it over and over and over.

7. You no longer have the game's bad AI repeatedly WASTE pods, by putting in 2 or 3 or 4 marines in each when they can hold FIVE people. The more pods zooming around in space it means the more chances one or more will get hit by defensive fire or aoe flak.

8. You no longer have nerf herders on the L3 forum trying to say we should increase the size of boarding pod from 3 to 50, because it can hold 5 marines each taking 8 space volume (funny the game rarely puts 5 in). Nevermind that there is such a thing called Cargo Extension. The last thing we need is to add more crap onto this boarding system to make it harder to carry pods by a factor of more than 10.

9. You no longer have these bizarre issues (or intentional nerf who knows?) of pods exploding when it hits a target that is completely unarmed!

10. You no longer have to worry about the pods hitting YOUR SHIP and exploding when you are madly trying to keep the target's shield low.

11. You no longer have to worry about the game sending 10 or 12 marines into the pods to the target even when you have specifically told it to send all 20.

12. You no longer have little baby jesuses crying whenever this broken boarding pods system causes players to pull out their hair in sheer, utterly maddening, steaming teladi frustration over these and so many other issues.

For god's sake, just get rid of the pods! There are a dozen better ways to do boarding. Captain Picard isn't bald because he kept pulling his hair out when his away teams got slaughtered en route in the pods to a target ship.

*pants* *pants* Rants over...for now.

[froger]

man you got some good ideas y not post that ppost in the devs or somthing where egosoft will see it.me personly would like another patch to change the bording from space/pod bording to transporter beam bording like you said or just make the bigger ship able to make bail

[Dycor]

Boarding ships, Is a skill The Player has to master. I find no problems with it, Just that it a bit more challenging now, I don't want it any easier.

I don't want to rollup onto them with a gun and tell them to handle over the ship easy.

There is a new concept, I was thinking about; A missile that turns ships and stations blue. So that, The player can claim them, It will be hard to find from within destroyed station or cap ships. more like a reward missile. Destroy a 1000 ship and you get to have one, that you can use on any ship in the game. The Claimer Missile.

[sleepy_head]

There is a new concept, I was thinking about; A missile that turns ships and stations blue. So that, The player can claim them,

If you are going to debate the merits of your position, try to avoid using these ridiculous hyperbole because that causes a person to lose all credibility. Nobody here wants an "I win" button. Like I have said several times in this thread, there is a vast amount of territory between "Too easy" and "Utterly ridiculous coupled with an interface from hell". It is to Egosoft's best interest to find a middle ground where this part of the game is challenging but not frustrate people into not buyiing their future games. Debate the issue on this type of things. Drop the exaggerations and strawman.