The stories are getting worse and worse
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I'd do a quote but it's mentioned in a few posts,
I thought their was some pretty witty dialogue between the characters during the plot so I really don't think that's a problem.
Comms in stations - yeah, totally pointless. Needs some special missions or unique triggers at the very least. Hope I'm just missing something but all the extra info stored here seems pretty wasted.
If you restrain yourself and tidy up some idea's this really belongs in lvl3 but would probably be a worthwhile post.
p.s. Thanks for more clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci1XZMBHEz8 < MWV You missed one.
I thought their was some pretty witty dialogue between the characters during the plot so I really don't think that's a problem.
Comms in stations - yeah, totally pointless. Needs some special missions or unique triggers at the very least. Hope I'm just missing something but all the extra info stored here seems pretty wasted.
If you restrain yourself and tidy up some idea's this really belongs in lvl3 but would probably be a worthwhile post.
p.s. Thanks for more clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci1XZMBHEz8 < MWV You missed one.
Take it easy, If you can't - Take it by force.
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I never Played Mechwarrior 4 Vengance so had no idea about that one. Nice find.
Speaking of which...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bafq8-a1CkU <- Heavy Gear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlbJCwWsJEk <- Heavy Gear 2
Speaking of which...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bafq8-a1CkU <- Heavy Gear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlbJCwWsJEk <- Heavy Gear 2
Last edited by Nightwatch on Sat, 22. Mar 08, 20:44, edited 2 times in total.
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beyer_garratt wrote:Well, I agree with the OP. Intro video for X3 contains much fail.
This is a proper space game intro.
I've only ever bothered with the first couple of missions in X3, and they really didn't make any sense. I couldn't tie anything together.
Totally agree here. It seems that the story line is not X3's strong point
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I agree. Have you watched the cutscenes from Archimedean Dynasty that I have posted?Paranoid66 wrote: If you can't do moving figures well best leave them out as others have suggested.
IE:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J8AwL7reySQ&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=heMuzF5LOOQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wWJrk5iLDTk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LKj-aPv ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14pClwf2 ... re=related
They are completely without animated humans, only ships and stations. And were still highly effective.
X-BTF did exactly the same. And succeded. Again, to bring my point up: X3 went for the worse.
Like many sequences from Freespace 2 as exampleParanoid66 wrote:
I can think of lots of alternatives even such boring staples as graphic race emblems flags, or banners combined with moving images of the fleet Argon Prime, and so on could be effective.
I agree with that, but a character like Don Tony Marani is still too much of a stretch. The Expedition to lead the Xenon away was in the 24th Century or? That average military personnell (and even not many of them, the BTF intro shows two or three ships) would know that much about organized crime in our time is too much. Or that the Italian mafia would exist exactly as it is now in that timeframe.Paranoid66 wrote:
I have to disagree with the comment about all knowledge from earth being completely forgot though. That may have been the party line and the way things were engineered among mainstream society, but among Pirates, other Rebels, and in secret I imagine much old lore, and many names words, and fragmentary traditions would have been preserved, and survived.
People don't actually let go of their culture all that easy, if they did our own world would be a lot less factional, and a lot more peaceful it would also be one hell of a lot more boring I just don't think it is human nature be it Argon or Terran to be that unified, and logical!
How many US-Soldiers today have detailed knowledge of criminal organizations in the Ottoman Empire of the year 1710? Not many. Even among those who might have Turkish heritage. But, even, if some do, would they preserve actively _that_ obscure information over centuries if they would land accidentaly on say, some desserted Island? And even if (how unlikely that might be) would the knowledge be after centuries still that correct? "Don" is the correct form without any failures. More likely, it would have changed over the years, Doni, Dan whatever. Especially given the fact, that the official government policy is eradication of earth knowledge.
Even the goner seemed to be rather clueless about earth culture in BTF. They knew about the planet, but that was all. And those were the experts.
A character like Marani is not totaly impossible but too unlikely to make a thoughtful story.
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Nightwatch wrote:First sorry for ranting earlier. i'm having a bit of a hard time RL so I might have come across a bit too abrasive with my ranting.![]()
Anyway wont say anything else for now, except to say the constructive critisism posts are prety good in this thread
Anyway someone asked for great intros to games. Well here are a few to spring to mind
Intro to Independance war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7AsRQXOUSY <-Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw1m2ZW1u84 <- Part 2
Independane war: Defiance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfzeTn4az2s
Planescape Torment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgqX82-HRYE
Mechwarrior 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X3GD0UnBCk
Mechcommander
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQPWE_M_EM
Freespace 2 : ending movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qiWAgQeAVY
Vampire The Masqurade: Redemption
Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs48k02AbLg
Intro movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlB4umW0CT4
Christof awakens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5wJ2Z6gb7U
I have a few mire but thats enough goodness for one post
Nice ones. I will post some unknown, but still interesting Intros:
Here is the very well done intro from M.A.X. It was an very innovative RTS/Turn based strategy hybrid.
Unfortunately, the game got totaly lambasted in the market back in the day against Warcraft 2 and C&C Red Alert. Here is the intro:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K0n5JQ0jpgM
Another intro of a true underdog: ZPC (Zero Population Count) the game itself sucked bad. But the visuals were unique. Everything was hand drawn
And not only the art was unique: You play some sort of an intergalactic Jesus who fights space nazis on his former home planet. But unlike Jesus' message of turn the other cheek, the motto of this "extremely violent hippie" (as some reviewer put it) is "Revolution, Mayhem, Destruction".
While the motto of his enemies is "No Flesh Shall Be Spared".
Check the intro and the cutscenes out, it's the epitome of uniquess:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98vuEmgYm9k
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I can't help thinking that the problem is: Egosoft are trying to keep us fans happy just by making a better and better sandbox game. Which is reasonable - six months after release, it's the sandbox we'll still be playing - but as far as the plot's concerned, we're the "captive audience". That is, we'll buy the game no matter what the plot looks like.
The plot seems to be there primarily to win new gamers. To lure people over from more plot-y, mission-y games and make them feel at home while they get used to the X universe. It's a marketing tool. Hence, the main character's become this young, heroic fantasy figures our hypothetical audience might want to live out in game. And with an eye to eye-candy, we've got TWO (no less) "plucky-but-unthreatning" love-interests. And for filler, comedy sidekicks and charicatures.
While I do admire that Egosoft want to win over new gamers (it would be easy to niche themselves into oscurity with cliquey little games just for us), they should bear some things in mind:-
(i) we fans will bear with a slightly rough product, but for "the wing-commander audience", the game has to dazzle from the start. Meaning
- (A) better intros and cut-scenes - if you can't animate humans, don't - do ships, space-scenes, space battles even. FORGET the news-reader - "Show, don't tell!" In-game is so good looking now, do NOT ruin it with a bad start. First impressions count.
- (B) it has to be released in a working state. I mean this. Look through the reviews of X3 and you'll see that EVERY review that gave X3 a poor rating did so because the game just didn't work. If anyone remembers the forums at that time... it was horrible. No point winning the players over, just to drive them away again with a game that sticks, crashes and is unfinishable. We want to keep them.
And magazines won't review it again when it's patched up to scratch... those reviews will hang over the game forever.
(ii) Not all of us fans JUST play it for the sandbox. What I'd like...
- (A) It'd be nice to give us something story-esque too. Even just something we could use to flesh out sandbox play. Perhaps alongside the essential (spoken) plot information, there could be text "archive" files on things, that explain in more detail.
- (B) Related. How about a real working "Argonopedia" - a centralised hub from which to access all those various information boxes about weapons, upgrades, ships, sectors, etc. I'm sick of flying to Split space (or having to fiddle about with Nav Sats and sector maps) to find out exactly how much faster a Split ship is than the equivalent Paranid model!
- (C) POLITICS! Let us work for governments! Give us official missions! Let us pick factions and advance their cause! If I'm a Teladi Company Director, get me to sabotage the solar plants in Family Whi that are hurting our business! If I'm a Strong Arm, let me talk to Njy's agent, I can clear out the Boron infestation in Hila's Joy! Let me help the Paranid to blow up that pesky pirate base, and collect together the resources to build that new jump gate into Kha'ak space! Let me change the lines on the map! Let me make a mark on the universe in a way that I'VE chosen for myself!
The plot seems to be there primarily to win new gamers. To lure people over from more plot-y, mission-y games and make them feel at home while they get used to the X universe. It's a marketing tool. Hence, the main character's become this young, heroic fantasy figures our hypothetical audience might want to live out in game. And with an eye to eye-candy, we've got TWO (no less) "plucky-but-unthreatning" love-interests. And for filler, comedy sidekicks and charicatures.
While I do admire that Egosoft want to win over new gamers (it would be easy to niche themselves into oscurity with cliquey little games just for us), they should bear some things in mind:-
(i) we fans will bear with a slightly rough product, but for "the wing-commander audience", the game has to dazzle from the start. Meaning
- (A) better intros and cut-scenes - if you can't animate humans, don't - do ships, space-scenes, space battles even. FORGET the news-reader - "Show, don't tell!" In-game is so good looking now, do NOT ruin it with a bad start. First impressions count.
- (B) it has to be released in a working state. I mean this. Look through the reviews of X3 and you'll see that EVERY review that gave X3 a poor rating did so because the game just didn't work. If anyone remembers the forums at that time... it was horrible. No point winning the players over, just to drive them away again with a game that sticks, crashes and is unfinishable. We want to keep them.
And magazines won't review it again when it's patched up to scratch... those reviews will hang over the game forever.
(ii) Not all of us fans JUST play it for the sandbox. What I'd like...
- (A) It'd be nice to give us something story-esque too. Even just something we could use to flesh out sandbox play. Perhaps alongside the essential (spoken) plot information, there could be text "archive" files on things, that explain in more detail.
- (B) Related. How about a real working "Argonopedia" - a centralised hub from which to access all those various information boxes about weapons, upgrades, ships, sectors, etc. I'm sick of flying to Split space (or having to fiddle about with Nav Sats and sector maps) to find out exactly how much faster a Split ship is than the equivalent Paranid model!
- (C) POLITICS! Let us work for governments! Give us official missions! Let us pick factions and advance their cause! If I'm a Teladi Company Director, get me to sabotage the solar plants in Family Whi that are hurting our business! If I'm a Strong Arm, let me talk to Njy's agent, I can clear out the Boron infestation in Hila's Joy! Let me help the Paranid to blow up that pesky pirate base, and collect together the resources to build that new jump gate into Kha'ak space! Let me change the lines on the map! Let me make a mark on the universe in a way that I'VE chosen for myself!
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truth
There have never been more truthful and blunt words spoken elsewhere on this site than in this thread.
People that were playing video games in the mid 90's are still around today much to the disappointment of microsoft. Children and young teens don't have money but young adults do and young adults have more time to spend playing games than kids do so it only makes sense to think of attracting adults to a game for a better profit. Children have parents that restrict their playing time so they can spend time learning and growing up. Adults have already done all that and can express and formulate an opinion beyond the usual few words children use to express their incredibly basic opinions.
The wing commander series has been brought up many times in this thread and that is obviously because it was so well done and so enjoyable. There is even a major website devoted to wing commander that gains popularity more and more each year. Rumors are going around that EA may develop a new wing commander game. Years and years from now people will still care about wing commander and be interested in buying products related to that story. Years and years from now people will still wonder why m$ didn't make another mechwarrior game for the pc.
I have not played X3 yet but I can say for sure that the talking heads scenes in X2 were just as awful and the dialogue surrounding the khaak species was so lewd it bothers any player from the states or any englsh speaking region. The comm vids from X2 are mixed in with the old comm vids from XBTF which ain't so bad but whenever I see them I can't help but think why didn't egosoft simply use the company that made those comm vids to do their animations too? Was it really that expensive? Wing commander 3 and 4 had some serious budgets for those live actors but these days we have motion actors for animating stuff, just use the same person to record animations for characters that fit the size of that person.
I think an x game can be great if only certain aspects of development would be much better thought out before commiting to them. Many companies do research on different markets before they release a product, X2 and X3 seem to be lacking in that research in relation to the US versions.
I don't really care to see girls and guns on the cover of the game box but thats not such a bad thing only it's more like an insult to see that imagery stereotypically shoved in the face of a buyer. Look at every character in the intro to X2 and you will see they are wearing guns even julian when he is a prisoner. What is a prisoner doing with a gun? Also why is there a deagle in saya's hand on the box of X3? How did the argons dream up the deagle design? It kind of fits in with that don guy I suppose. Come up with some details and find new ideas for what a gun should look like in the x universe. Look at star trek they made guns out of tv remotes lol. Look at babylon 5 they made guns out of childrens water pistols and people accepted it.
Above all be different and be detailed, certain great stories of our time are great for good reason. Look for those reasons and apply them to this game and see what happens.
People that were playing video games in the mid 90's are still around today much to the disappointment of microsoft. Children and young teens don't have money but young adults do and young adults have more time to spend playing games than kids do so it only makes sense to think of attracting adults to a game for a better profit. Children have parents that restrict their playing time so they can spend time learning and growing up. Adults have already done all that and can express and formulate an opinion beyond the usual few words children use to express their incredibly basic opinions.
The wing commander series has been brought up many times in this thread and that is obviously because it was so well done and so enjoyable. There is even a major website devoted to wing commander that gains popularity more and more each year. Rumors are going around that EA may develop a new wing commander game. Years and years from now people will still care about wing commander and be interested in buying products related to that story. Years and years from now people will still wonder why m$ didn't make another mechwarrior game for the pc.
I have not played X3 yet but I can say for sure that the talking heads scenes in X2 were just as awful and the dialogue surrounding the khaak species was so lewd it bothers any player from the states or any englsh speaking region. The comm vids from X2 are mixed in with the old comm vids from XBTF which ain't so bad but whenever I see them I can't help but think why didn't egosoft simply use the company that made those comm vids to do their animations too? Was it really that expensive? Wing commander 3 and 4 had some serious budgets for those live actors but these days we have motion actors for animating stuff, just use the same person to record animations for characters that fit the size of that person.
I think an x game can be great if only certain aspects of development would be much better thought out before commiting to them. Many companies do research on different markets before they release a product, X2 and X3 seem to be lacking in that research in relation to the US versions.
I don't really care to see girls and guns on the cover of the game box but thats not such a bad thing only it's more like an insult to see that imagery stereotypically shoved in the face of a buyer. Look at every character in the intro to X2 and you will see they are wearing guns even julian when he is a prisoner. What is a prisoner doing with a gun? Also why is there a deagle in saya's hand on the box of X3? How did the argons dream up the deagle design? It kind of fits in with that don guy I suppose. Come up with some details and find new ideas for what a gun should look like in the x universe. Look at star trek they made guns out of tv remotes lol. Look at babylon 5 they made guns out of childrens water pistols and people accepted it.
Above all be different and be detailed, certain great stories of our time are great for good reason. Look for those reasons and apply them to this game and see what happens.
Our mighty sovereign may she always go before us sailing brightly in the sea of black.
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On a slightly connected note, I read this piece from the game devs of Sins of a Solar Empire...
http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/po ... tid=303512
...and since that game seems aimed at the the same userbase as the X series I thought I'd bung it in here rather that starting a different thread.
Now I don't actually have SoaSE yet, but several friends have already purchased the game and highly reccomend it to me (maybe next month I get it too).
Ironclad sound like a similar design team as ES too, another point to their credit, and seem to know what their customers want from a game and are prepared to try to produce it.
Everyone here likes the X universe, otherwise they wouldn't be reading these boards, it's just we want the games to be a little more "polished" (not sure if that's the word though) allowing a greater playebase, leading to more income for ES, leading to the production of further great games for us to play and enjoy.
Whatever happens I think I will be getting X3:TC on release, as it's the smaller game companies that produce the games I like playing the best. I just hope they manage to get back the feel of BTF/XT and even X2 (without the marionettes).
http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/po ... tid=303512
...and since that game seems aimed at the the same userbase as the X series I thought I'd bung it in here rather that starting a different thread.
Now I don't actually have SoaSE yet, but several friends have already purchased the game and highly reccomend it to me (maybe next month I get it too).
Ironclad sound like a similar design team as ES too, another point to their credit, and seem to know what their customers want from a game and are prepared to try to produce it.
Everyone here likes the X universe, otherwise they wouldn't be reading these boards, it's just we want the games to be a little more "polished" (not sure if that's the word though) allowing a greater playebase, leading to more income for ES, leading to the production of further great games for us to play and enjoy.
Whatever happens I think I will be getting X3:TC on release, as it's the smaller game companies that produce the games I like playing the best. I just hope they manage to get back the feel of BTF/XT and even X2 (without the marionettes).
Cheers,
Mark
Mark
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A scenario _is_ important for a sandbox game. GTA is in huge parts a sandbox game also. But what whould be more exciting? Cruising around and doing random stuff in a city full of crime, or cruising around and doing stuff in Barbietown?The Zig wrote:I can't help thinking that the problem is: Egosoft are trying to keep us fans happy just by making a better and better sandbox game. Which is reasonable - six months after release, it's the sandbox we'll still be playing - but as far as the plot's concerned, we're the "captive audience". That is, we'll buy the game no matter what the plot looks like.
A good sandbox game needs a good scenario. The mentioned Frontier Elite 2 in my first post was a pure sandbox game - there was no overarching plot to follow. All you did was trading (and taking sometimes missions from the military, they were all randomly generated) But it still had a powerful scenario behind it (good description of starsystems, the politics behind the governments, stories etc) - alltogether a powerful lore. And atmosphere in the game too as a result of it.
That is what's lacking in X. It has lore and atmosphere, but both are weaker by a magnitude. The problem is the not the basic premise of the scenario, but the execution of it.
You can do basicaly two things with the X lore. Describe and execute in this way:
Option 1: "A forgotten branch of humanity together with odd and not always trustworthy alien-allies are in a constant struggle against two superior foes for the very survivial in a hostile universe."
Or in this way:
Option 2: "Five loony races trade a bit in a cosy universe where sometimes funny looking blue-purple ships appear to wreak some damage."
BTF had a huge streak of 1, X3 has gone all the way of option 2.
O.K. I admit X3 tried a bit of option 1.. but in the plot only. And even then it failed miserably. When the news and "McCarthy" lamented about the Kha'ak, it was nothing but a huge laughing stock.
To make no mistakes: I only mention Elite and Frontier so often because that's the games X is based on, the name "X - Beyond the Frontier" was even a direct reference to Frontier.
I think many people here (well at least some do I hope) know the game X-Com UFO defense.
That game had an extremely simple story - evil aliens attack the earth. But the masterful execution of it made you forget how simple it was. Why was it "masterful executed"? Because it took itself serious, and was able to squeeze everything of the scenario out. And if it used clichés, it used the good ones.
Last edited by Boringnick on Tue, 25. Mar 08, 00:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Yes that is quite good, however this tops it without a doubt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPxWhth-cT8. Now thats some damn fine story telling right there.beyer_garratt wrote:Well, I agree with the OP. Intro video for X3 contains much fail.
This is a proper space game intro.
I've only ever bothered with the first couple of missions in X3, and they really didn't make any sense. I couldn't tie anything together.

Also for the record next time go write your own story and see how good it turns out

Also this was a general post so I am not directing it at anyone specific, well kind of just the bit about the games score to the op but thats it honest.

[ external image ]
We got tactical smart missiles, phase-plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp sticks... ~ Hudson
We got tactical smart missiles, phase-plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp sticks... ~ Hudson
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Also for the record next time go write your own story and see how good it turns out It is no where near as easy as it looks in these days and times. Trust me I know.

I'll write a story line for you all.
But like GTA san-adras it'll probably get a certificate 18 thrown on it.

Thing is these days writers have lost there sence of humer.
Egosoft haven't thou they put there's in the cut screen animations.


For god's sake we by games for entertainment and fun don't we so what would be wrong with bringing out one for the grown ups and a slitly tamer version for the younger ones.
Remember even super hero's like us are human and we all do the odd thing we not supposed to now don't we

Well I do

Read something in a book once, can't remember which but it said something about sin and throwing stones.
Probably one of those Gonar types, stange lot them always talking in riddles.

Anyways I leave you guys to carry on your debate I'm off to pick a fight with the Xenon.
Chill out boys and girls life is short so enjoy it while it lasts

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I do all the time. I'm a writer. In fact, I've outlined a basic story I'd like to see in TC, involving the Terrans making backroom deals with the Split and Paranid while quietly making deals with pirate groups to run assassination missions which eventually leads to tensions escalating throughout the galaxy, and ultimately an unchecked war.Gamgee wrote:
Also for the record next time go write your own story and see how good it turns outIt is no where near as easy as it looks in these days and times. Trust me I know.
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What you want is some ambiguity regarding motives a few antagonists on various sides, and the player character to be given some real hard moral ethical, and economic choices!
The necessity to actually think - deduce - what is going on by gathering information, and reading between the lines. Choice as to whether or not you want to do any particular mission with consequences either way.
The ability to change sides at a various points or to stay true again with consequences, and for all significant options to have some effect that will remain beyond the plot itself.
These effects need not all be massive things but could range from the establishment or destruction of npc stations, more or less pirate activity, increased or decreased racial tensions, the colonisation of a few new sectors by whatever races or faction ends up on top, and so on.
The necessity to actually think - deduce - what is going on by gathering information, and reading between the lines. Choice as to whether or not you want to do any particular mission with consequences either way.
The ability to change sides at a various points or to stay true again with consequences, and for all significant options to have some effect that will remain beyond the plot itself.
These effects need not all be massive things but could range from the establishment or destruction of npc stations, more or less pirate activity, increased or decreased racial tensions, the colonisation of a few new sectors by whatever races or faction ends up on top, and so on.
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I got sins just before I got x3.MarkB wrote:On a slightly connected note, I read this piece from the game devs of Sins of a Solar Empire...
http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/po ... tid=303512
...and since that game seems aimed at the the same userbase as the X series I thought I'd bung it in here rather that starting a different thread.
Now I don't actually have SoaSE yet, but several friends have already purchased the game and highly reccomend it to me (maybe next month I get it too).
Ironclad sound like a similar design team as ES too, another point to their credit, and seem to know what their customers want from a game and are prepared to try to produce it.
Everyone here likes the X universe, otherwise they wouldn't be reading these boards, it's just we want the games to be a little more "polished" (not sure if that's the word though) allowing a greater playebase, leading to more income for ES, leading to the production of further great games for us to play and enjoy.
Whatever happens I think I will be getting X3:TC on release, as it's the smaller game companies that produce the games I like playing the best. I just hope they manage to get back the feel of BTF/XT and even X2 (without the marionettes).
I haven't played sins since I got X3, very different games.
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Nice. But it's possible to make it even more minimalistic: Audio only!Gamgee wrote:Yes that is quite good, however this tops it without a doubt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPxWhth-cT8. Now thats some damn fine story telling right there.beyer_garratt wrote:Well, I agree with the OP. Intro video for X3 contains much fail.
This is a proper space game intro.
I've only ever bothered with the first couple of missions in X3, and they really didn't make any sense. I couldn't tie anything together.
http://www.tentakelvilla.de/download/lo ... h_128k.zip
The audio only intro for the _old_ Lucasarts adventure "Loom" from 1990 (it came on a separate cassete with the game)
I think every game developer crew should listen to it if they didn't have already. Demonstrates quite impressive, how it's possible to create mood, even without any pictures.
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Loom! Now that brings back memories.
Weird thing is that the memories are about having a blast playing it rather than the actual gameplay, but I have no actual recall of what you actually did (other than it was something to do with note sequences), or in fact what they sequences did once you had them.
Strange the way your mind works like that. Chunky graphics, and I do remember a blue glow when tunes worked.
Mind you, I have never been one to be wowed by graphics over gameplay, which is probably why I prefered XBTF/XT/X2 over the more pretty looking (in places) X3, though I still think X2 has an overall prettier universe to play in.
Weird thing is that the memories are about having a blast playing it rather than the actual gameplay, but I have no actual recall of what you actually did (other than it was something to do with note sequences), or in fact what they sequences did once you had them.
Strange the way your mind works like that. Chunky graphics, and I do remember a blue glow when tunes worked.
Mind you, I have never been one to be wowed by graphics over gameplay, which is probably why I prefered XBTF/XT/X2 over the more pretty looking (in places) X3, though I still think X2 has an overall prettier universe to play in.
Cheers,
Mark
Mark
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I have recently (well, one year ago) replayed it. Still great. Not because of the gameplay though, almost every other Lucasarts adventure of that period had better puzzles.
To stay true to this thread - it still creates a very special feeling when you play it.
The universe of the game is totaly odd (on paper at least), it's a mixture of Star Wars, Tshaikovsky's Swan Lake with some darker Sci-Fi elements (weavers have "mutant babies" in the prologue), mythology from native tribes, mostly about the belief about what happens to to the dead at the end and even a bit of New Testament thrown in for good measure (virgin birth of an Messiah-figure of sorts, together with a strong focus on the "apocalypse" at the game end). Not to forget some bits of Greek mythology to make it complete.
On paper this sounds like... "what crap is that"? But they really succeeded in making the scenario believable, even lovable. And this is quite an unbelievable feat to accomplish in itself. Making great scenarios out of sources that are such conflicting to a game universe otherwhise.. a lost art in games.
The companies got more cowardly. Could you sell such a concept today to a company?
Another lost art: Classical music. True classics from the old masters, not neo pseudo-classic. Not to sound snobby, but I wish more games would follow that lost tradition. You have to play again Loom to see how much Tshaikovskys music helped it there. The often mentioned Elite series had it too. (classical music that is)
Nothing is more majestic than to dock in while Strauss' Blue Danube plays.
Not to forget "The Hut of Baba Yaga" from Mussorgky's "Pictures at an Exhibition".. and Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King".. those were great pulse drivers in the flying sequences.. My God.. memories.. I think I might cry soon! I must have never felt so old before.. before I wrote this post.
Sniff...
To stay true to this thread - it still creates a very special feeling when you play it.
The universe of the game is totaly odd (on paper at least), it's a mixture of Star Wars, Tshaikovsky's Swan Lake with some darker Sci-Fi elements (weavers have "mutant babies" in the prologue), mythology from native tribes, mostly about the belief about what happens to to the dead at the end and even a bit of New Testament thrown in for good measure (virgin birth of an Messiah-figure of sorts, together with a strong focus on the "apocalypse" at the game end). Not to forget some bits of Greek mythology to make it complete.
On paper this sounds like... "what crap is that"? But they really succeeded in making the scenario believable, even lovable. And this is quite an unbelievable feat to accomplish in itself. Making great scenarios out of sources that are such conflicting to a game universe otherwhise.. a lost art in games.
The companies got more cowardly. Could you sell such a concept today to a company?
Another lost art: Classical music. True classics from the old masters, not neo pseudo-classic. Not to sound snobby, but I wish more games would follow that lost tradition. You have to play again Loom to see how much Tshaikovskys music helped it there. The often mentioned Elite series had it too. (classical music that is)
Nothing is more majestic than to dock in while Strauss' Blue Danube plays.
Not to forget "The Hut of Baba Yaga" from Mussorgky's "Pictures at an Exhibition".. and Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King".. those were great pulse drivers in the flying sequences.. My God.. memories.. I think I might cry soon! I must have never felt so old before.. before I wrote this post.
Sniff...
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Hmm..A scenario _is_ important for a sandbox game. GTA is in huge parts a sandbox game also. But what whould be more exciting? Cruising around and doing random stuff in a city full of crime, or cruising around and doing stuff in Barbietown?
A good sandbox game needs a good scenario. The mentioned Frontier Elite 2 in my first post was a pure sandbox game - there was no overarching plot to follow. All you did was trading (and taking sometimes missions from the military, they were all randomly generated) But it still had a powerful scenario behind it (good description of starsystems, the politics behind the governments, stories etc) - alltogether a powerful lore. And atmosphere in the game too as a result of it.
That is what's lacking in X. It has lore and atmosphere, but both are weaker by a magnitude. The problem is the not the basic premise of the scenario, but the execution of it.
I'm reminded of what the makers of that flawed masterpeice Black and White said in an interview I saw. They wanted to create the ultimate sandbox, where you could do everything you wanted... but the problem the ran smack into was that that was completely and utterly boring. So they created the storyline as a framework that you could work within. and it worked. i love Black and White and still play it from time to time. But thats the problem. sandboxes are boaring unless they are placed in a good context. I supose I should mention the Sims but I've never played it so I cant comment, but its basicly a dolls house from what I understand. And of course Sim City. You built a city till you got sick of it then had Godzilla level it. Good times.
The problem is how do you scale that. YOU either have the aliens taking systems and the player has to build up a fleet to stop them, of you have it as kind of a background buzz. How do you scale things along. If you have the full on attacks you will frustrate the player as they cant go anywhere as everything they try and build keeps getting blown up and they cant really effect the action all that much. or you have it so that you can build everything in more or less safety. Which frankly is the X3 option.You can do basicaly two things with the X lore. Describe and execute in this way:
Option 1: "A forgotten branch of humanity together with odd and not always trustworthy alien-allies are in a constant struggle against two superior foes for the very survivial in a hostile universe."
Or in this way:
Option 2: "Five loony races trade a bit in a cosy universe where sometimes funny looking blue-purple ships appear to wreak some damage."
BTF had a huge streak of 1, X3 has gone all the way of option 2.
O.K. I admit X3 tried a bit of option 1.. but in the plot only. And even then it failed miserably. When the news and "McCarthy" lamented about the Kha'ak, it was nothing but a huge laughing stock.
One option is to ramp up the danger from the antagonists as they run through the plot. IE you do a mission and the aliens become nastier and attack systems with more powerful forces. Or it could be tied to combat rank. X3 has this a little as Pirates and other ships become better equipped as your fighting rank goes up. But really you are in control of when and where you fight the bad guys to a large extent.
Anyways its a post from me.. then its traditional Intro time!
Shattered steel - the first game from Bioware, believe it or not. Very good Walker style game.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6a_CEFyolTs
F.E.A.R. Uses music to create the mood and short sequences. Be advised that the end of this is a little disturbing. The squeamish should probably turn off when you see the bodies lying on the floor towards the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-QfrYhn2gQ
Descent 3. Again uses Music very well to create the mood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Ma7wL1vT4
Armor Command: old game one of the first RTSes to use 3d. Was not a great game but the intro was fairly good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLDXWeSDLGw
O.R.B. Pretty Space battle stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdTihPOp8ZQ
Battlezone. Interesting as it actually uses a styalised rendered version of actual gameplay as the intro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00e_BZx3ddA
God Battlezone. I played so much of that game It still utterly rocks.. Hell I think I still have the disks somewhere...
Last edited by Nightwatch on Wed, 26. Mar 08, 05:47, edited 3 times in total.
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I haven't read absolutely every post here so I may be repeating something, but I thought there are a couple of points worth making.
I would love to see Egosoft produce a world-class intro. I am sure it would help considerably to wedge open the niche market and draw more gamers in. I regret that, of late, they haven't been able to.
There is a possible very good reason for this:
Money. Big manuals, introductory novellas, fantastic intros, long cut-scenes, human animation and lengthy dialogue all cost disproportionate amounts of money. X3 was supposed to have a nice, fat manual but the publishers weren't prepared to pay for the printing, even thought the manual had been written! Instead we got a thin, inaccurate and partial thing of no worth, hurriedly extracted from the intended manual.
Survival. Egosoft is, I am pretty sure, the ONLY long-standing player in the space combat/trading sim market. There have been contenders to their throne in recent years and a couple of games released, one of which was poor and the other seems pretty decent. But all the companies that produced great intros that we've been reminiscing about are gone - liquidated or merged, and none are writing space sims any more.
Yes, there is room for great intros these days, but the money-men have to be certain that the game isn't a niche market candidate. The Witcher had an amazing intro, but it had a lot going for it - Polish production (cheap), using an existing engine (cheap), intended for a currently very healthy market and with the force of a very popular series of novels to tempt people to join the market.
Egosoft have only one of those factors going for them - an existing engine, which is creaking and will need re-writing before many years are done. As handicaps they write for a niche market, and their coders are based in German, USA and UK.
One thing I hope WILL improve with X3:TC - and that is the number and quality of missions. Until now coders have had to write missions using whatever language they code the engine in or the scripting language, neither of which are likely to be at all easy to use. Coding for a sandbox game with a massive background AI is difficult! Having looked at the Mission Director I can see that it will be a lot easier to use, and we ought to see a great many more bug-free missions as a result.
Maybe if X3:TC does well then there will be the resources to produce a really high-class X4.
I would love to see Egosoft produce a world-class intro. I am sure it would help considerably to wedge open the niche market and draw more gamers in. I regret that, of late, they haven't been able to.
There is a possible very good reason for this:
Money. Big manuals, introductory novellas, fantastic intros, long cut-scenes, human animation and lengthy dialogue all cost disproportionate amounts of money. X3 was supposed to have a nice, fat manual but the publishers weren't prepared to pay for the printing, even thought the manual had been written! Instead we got a thin, inaccurate and partial thing of no worth, hurriedly extracted from the intended manual.
Survival. Egosoft is, I am pretty sure, the ONLY long-standing player in the space combat/trading sim market. There have been contenders to their throne in recent years and a couple of games released, one of which was poor and the other seems pretty decent. But all the companies that produced great intros that we've been reminiscing about are gone - liquidated or merged, and none are writing space sims any more.
Yes, there is room for great intros these days, but the money-men have to be certain that the game isn't a niche market candidate. The Witcher had an amazing intro, but it had a lot going for it - Polish production (cheap), using an existing engine (cheap), intended for a currently very healthy market and with the force of a very popular series of novels to tempt people to join the market.
Egosoft have only one of those factors going for them - an existing engine, which is creaking and will need re-writing before many years are done. As handicaps they write for a niche market, and their coders are based in German, USA and UK.
One thing I hope WILL improve with X3:TC - and that is the number and quality of missions. Until now coders have had to write missions using whatever language they code the engine in or the scripting language, neither of which are likely to be at all easy to use. Coding for a sandbox game with a massive background AI is difficult! Having looked at the Mission Director I can see that it will be a lot easier to use, and we ought to see a great many more bug-free missions as a result.
Maybe if X3:TC does well then there will be the resources to produce a really high-class X4.
My new fave game (while waiting for Rebirth) - Kerbal Space Program
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My god, this is an intriguing thread. Well worth the time I just spent reading and watching all the youtube clips.
But to the OP, I agree with.
X3 the Intro/cut scenes characters and the plot do seem very poor, in comparison to other games of the genre. But I believe that Ego have probably built the best sandbox in homage to the Elite style of gaming than any other developer. Luckily I personally don't play the game for the plot if I did I would have been quite dissatisfied. The only saving grace, is that the intro's etc are only seen after the game has been purchased and installed. Teasers, trailers and cinematics on the other hand are a different entity
I've lost count of the games that have released breathtakingly stunning trailers and cinematics which are touted about by PR companies/publishers prior to release, promising epic gameplay only to find that all that is depicted in the said trailers don't exist in-game.
@Boringnick re: music
I seemed to have missed out on Loom, sounds intriguing (I've swapped out most of the X3 soundtrack with Wagner, Stravinsky and Bach(|J.S) and of course replaced the combat tracks with excerpts from Wagners Ring cycle and a certain Tchaikovsky overture) your not the only old classical fart about
But to the OP, I agree with.
X3 the Intro/cut scenes characters and the plot do seem very poor, in comparison to other games of the genre. But I believe that Ego have probably built the best sandbox in homage to the Elite style of gaming than any other developer. Luckily I personally don't play the game for the plot if I did I would have been quite dissatisfied. The only saving grace, is that the intro's etc are only seen after the game has been purchased and installed. Teasers, trailers and cinematics on the other hand are a different entity
I've lost count of the games that have released breathtakingly stunning trailers and cinematics which are touted about by PR companies/publishers prior to release, promising epic gameplay only to find that all that is depicted in the said trailers don't exist in-game.
@Boringnick re: music
I seemed to have missed out on Loom, sounds intriguing (I've swapped out most of the X3 soundtrack with Wagner, Stravinsky and Bach(|J.S) and of course replaced the combat tracks with excerpts from Wagners Ring cycle and a certain Tchaikovsky overture) your not the only old classical fart about
