Current [POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?

[MegaBurn]

Yeah, I really should travel for broadband, did on a regular basis years ago, before the recession...

On patches, no, there's no reason for it to differ from Steam plus the non-Steam executable.

On waiting for Steam to download, no, like I said, it doesn't work on slow dial-up, updates containing individual files larger than ~50MB get stuck in a timeout-restart loop. Unless I missed something and there's some way to enable/force download resume for individual files, or cache it on a proxy (e.g. via VPS hosting). Downloading a Steam backup is fine if its a full game, hosted on a direct download with resume, but that's a huge waste for updates - would need loose files or a diff patch to sync.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Consider this a means of stop-loss for long term customers (X series fans) ES is otherwise guaranteed to loose due to Steam. It should not be considered a regular distribution channel, nor a significant profit stream, wouldn't be openly advertised, and may only run at break-even in terms of money, but would benefit the community in retaining veteran members.

Too many assumptions, you are assuming the either the majority or a significant portion of the veteran fan contingent of this forum are in a similar situation to you. I would bet it is a very vocal minority in actuality, but I do not have indisputable statistics to support my theory and the various polls wrt Steam in this forum does not constitute indisputable statistics supporting your theory either.

That's nearly backward enough to be assuming, but thanks for the attempt in providing negative feedback. My only "assumption" is if people are interested in that club idea it will gain some traction in discussion.

The main assumption I was referring to (highlighted text) is that using Steam exclusively is damaging Egosoft.

From there maybe a new thread and poll to hash out a proposal, collect some stats on basic interest, send the consensus to an admin for ES feedback, and wait for a response.

This has been discussed before and the impression I got is there is general apathy for your Egosoft managed X Club concept.

[Mannschaft]

Waiting for the lock, I've seen this poll before.

Just curious if you were still waiting or not.

[Night Nord]

Yeah, I really should travel for broadband, did on a regular basis years ago, before the recession...

On patches, no, there's no reason for it to differ from Steam plus the non-Steam executable.

On waiting for Steam to download, no, like I said, it doesn't work on slow dial-up, updates containing individual files larger than ~50MB get stuck in a timeout-restart loop. Unless I missed something and there's some way to enable/force download resume for individual files, or cache it on a proxy (e.g. via VPS hosting). Downloading a Steam backup is fine if its a full game, hosted on a direct download with resume, but that's a huge waste for updates - would need loose files or a diff patch to sync.

Well, considering your location, I've may just found the solution for your internet problems.

[MegaBurn]

Consider this a means of stop-loss for long term customers (X series fans) ES is otherwise guaranteed to loose due to Steam. It should not be considered a regular distribution channel, nor a significant profit stream, wouldn't be openly advertised, and may only run at break-even in terms of money, but would benefit the community in retaining veteran members.

Too many assumptions, you are assuming the either the majority or a significant portion of the veteran fan contingent of this forum are in a similar situation to you. I would bet it is a very vocal minority in actuality, but I do not have indisputable statistics to support my theory and the various polls wrt Steam in this forum does not constitute indisputable statistics supporting your theory either.

That's nearly backward enough to be assuming, but thanks for the attempt in providing negative feedback. My only "assumption" is if people are interested in that club idea it will gain some traction in discussion.

The main assumption I was referring to (highlighted text) is that using Steam exclusively is damaging Egosoft.

Plainly, its not an assumption, its obvious, blatant even, its an unnecessary loss of existing customers and guaranteed sales, and the entire point of these Steam threads. I'm too indifferent to ask why you think ES is better off without non-Steam customers, like me, or take that as the subtle insult I'm assuming it was meant to be.

Again, I should thank you for your negative feedback. I was about to give up on this entirely, again... Now I see posting in a Steam debate thread is the wrong place, that using the term "club" gives the wrong impression (I didn't like it either), and that I need to make more assumptions to come up with a proposal.

Thanks for the feedback, insight, and motivation.


Night Nord, yeah, I considered that several years ago, using drones (RC helicopters) to find wifi and "borrow" bandwidth. At the time the costs were too high, flight range too short, electronics payload too heavy, and the nearest broadband too far away, for it to work on paper - not to mention reliability. Its probably feasible now... A better option is using a balloon, or mini blimp, on a reinforced data cable tether to get above the sprawling foothills for a clear wireless broadband signal - like a low altitude satellite. Only problem is there aren't any wide-area wireless broadband providers within range (e.g. wi-max), only point to point microwave, which requires a more stable platform, and one that won't rotate in the breeze - 3G cell service is out of range.

[Slashman]

Plainly, its not an assumption, its obvious, blatant even, its an unnecessary loss of existing customers and guaranteed sales, and the entire point of these Steam threads.

I can agree that there will be some loss of customers with a Steam exclusive game. The problem is that the number and impact of the loss is not something we have any way of knowing.

As to it being unnecessary: None of us here are game developers. We have no idea what it takes to support games across multiple release platforms. Egosoft is not the first, the smallest, or largest developer to express the sentiment that supporting multiple releases for their games is resource-intensive and not something that they really want to do(or are in a position to do).

I'm too indifferent to ask why you think ES is better off without non-Steam customers, like me, or take that as the subtle insult I'm assuming it was meant to be.

I can't think of any developer that wants to lose customers. But I can at least understand why, when put in a certain position, a developer/publisher would make this choice. Especially when it may not be as impacting to their overall bottom line as someone who can't/won't use Steam may like to think.

I do hope we can all end up enjoying the game when it releases. And at least more people may be fine when they release the no-Steam exe in the months after the initial release.

[jasonbarron]

According to the poll results, only 15 people are insisting that they won't buy the game on Steam, a statement of which most will probably recant and buy it there anyhow. To me, that's a surprising statistic, in the sense that the number is so tiny, given the "wall of text" posts vilifying the use of Steam that have dominated this thread.

Given the fact that less than 400 people have even bothered voting (of which 79% have said Yes, I will buy on Steam!), I read that this is a non-issue to the vast majority of consumers.

[A5PECT]

Or, since this argument has gone on so long without any change in stance from Egosoft, anyone sufficiently against Steam has given up on the game and stopped visiting the forum and therefore did not vote.

Meanwhile, new potential customers brought in from the recent marketing burst arrived already knowing the game is Steam-based and are likely already Steam users themselves.

Though, if the numbers of the latter group are sufficiently high, I guess it becomes a non-issue again.

[Inverness]

Or, since this argument has gone on so long without any change in stance from Egosoft, anyone sufficiently against Steam has given up on the game and stopped visiting the forum and therefore did not vote.

Meanwhile, new potential customers brought in from the recent marketing burst arrived already knowing the game is Steam-based and are likely already Steam users themselves.

Though, if the numbers of the latter group are sufficiently high, I guess it becomes a non-issue again.

That's an interesting but incorrect way of explaining away the poll numbers.

The truth of the matters is that forum-goers are always a small minority of the player base. Of that, the people that have issues are far more likely to go on the forum to complain about them while the people that enjoy the game are just going to enjoy playing it (or waiting for it in this case). That applies in all cases.

That makes the poll results even more interesting because even among the people who bother to go the forums and vote on a poll, a vast majority still has no issue with Steam.

So yes, I think it's quite safe to say that Steam exclusivity is a non-issue for a vast majority of customers.

[jasonbarron]

Okay, I just looked at the numbers for the previous version of this poll--didn't notice it before--and it boils down to 72% voting ok for Steam, 25% saying no. And again, similar to this current version of the poll, I think most of the people in the "no" camp are just venting their frustration. I strongly suspect that most of them, if not all, will buy X:R through Steam regardless of what they state on these forums.

The only poll that matters is how many people buy it when it releases. Egosoft is clearly making a good move utilizing Steam.

*edited typo

[xwolfi]

I've been using steam since I am 15 yo and I will never buy a game that is not on it, except for games that are on Origin if they are exceptionnally good.

I just need to have my game saved forever and not on a dusty aging dvd or worse: as a digital download on some random developper website that will disappear eventually.

Weird right ?!

[targetdrone]

hmm.. actually i would have to change my vote...

i voted the first option way back.. .but now that it is clear i can fly only one ship, i could only vote that i "would" get it on steam....

steam isn't the deciding factor for me not getting it... unless its at <10€ at a steam sale

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

I'm too indifferent to ask why you think ES is better off without non-Steam customers, like me, or take that as the subtle insult I'm assuming it was meant to be.

I think the problem is that we as gamers have got it into our heads that we're far more important than we actually are and that Egosoft exist solely to cater to our every whim and that's simply not the case.

Certainly no developer actively seeks to drive customers away as every lost sale is lost profit, but at the same time they're running a business and there is a cutoff point at which the financial cost and resources required to implement any given feature just becomes nonviable.

You can see it early on in the discussion if you care to look back that far but there several examples of the more vociferous Steam detractors vilifying Egosoft for their decision and proclaiming that the loss of their patronage was going to result in the company going under. Well that's as maybe, but a developer that spends $20 on support costs to retain a $15 sale isn't better off than a developer that decides just to concede that sale now is it?

Just because we happen to have been customers in the past doesn't mean Egosoft "owe us" anything. I've seen people arguing about Egosofts lack of loyalty to their customers. Well where's the customers loyalty to Egosoft? I'm not seeing a whole lot from some. Surely those shouting about "loyalty" and "what they're owed" because they're long time supporters should be showing a little bit of loyalty themselves toward Egsooft.

More knowledgeable people than us will have done the figures for Egosoft and determined that Steam is the way to go. Yes, that's going to mean leaving a few by the wayside that aren't able to keep up but unfortunately that's just the way it is.

[GebürtigerTerraner]

I'm too indifferent to ask why you think ES is better off without non-Steam customers, like me, or take that as the subtle insult I'm assuming it was meant to be.

I think the problem is that we as gamers have got it into our heads that we're far more important than we actually are and that Egosoft exist solely to cater to our every whim and that's simply not the case.

Certainly no developer actively seeks to drive customers away as every lost sale is lost profit, but at the same time they're running a business and there is a cutoff point at which the financial cost and resources required to implement any given feature just becomes nonviable.

You can see it early on in the discussion if you care to look back that far but there several examples of the more vociferous Steam detractors vilifying Egosoft for their decision and proclaiming that the loss of their patronage was going to result in the company going under. Well that's as maybe, but a developer that spends $20 on support costs to retain a $15 sale isn't better off than a developer that decides just to concede that sale now is it?

Just because we happen to have been customers in the past doesn't mean Egosoft "owe us" anything. I've seen people arguing about Egosofts lack of loyalty to their customers. Well where's the customers loyalty to Egosoft? I'm not seeing a whole lot from some. Surely those shouting about "loyalty" and "what they're owed" because they're long time supporters should be showing a little bit of loyalty themselves toward Egsooft.

More knowledgeable people than us will have done the figures for Egosoft and determined that Steam is the way to go. Yes, that's going to mean leaving a few by the wayside that aren't able to keep up but unfortunately that's just the way it is.

Bernd said at least once that X would not exist without Steam,so I think it was a very good decision.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@MegaBurn: No insults intended, but Slashman and others have clarified the main issues well enough.

We live in a world with a growing number of people adopting and in some cases even liking platforms like Steam. In this world there is probably more business to be gained from using such platforms than is lost because some people either are unable to or refuse to adjust.

That is not to say Egosoft is better without such people but rather that the business case to support them is probably on shaky grounds.

Your club idea would require sufficient adoption from the community to make it a viable business proposition. Something which is probably not going to happen based on past discussions on that topic.

[Securion]

I don't buy anything unless its on Steam.




If they only could sell pizza and beer...

[hartza76]

Stut up and take my money. I love games wihout steam interaction but i have used steam from 2002 so i dont care less

Also offcourse im worried that my 52+ games will be gone some day to the bit heavens sadly when steam is closed. But that true to dvd games too i have allready games that without extensive tinkering wont work in W8

Also or what i read about Bernt said that steam has made actual sales lucrative so its not that bad media to relaase for Egosoft kind of companies more buyers in the end = more money for the ego ferrari eh. new games.

[GebürtigerTerraner]

Stut up and take my money. I love games wihout steam interaction but i have used steam from 2002 so i dont care less

Also offcourse im worried that my 52+ games will be gone some day to the bit heavens sadly when steam is closed. But that true to dvd games too i have allready games that without extensive tinkering wont work in W8

Also or what i read about Bernt said that steam has made actual sales lucrative so its not that bad media to relaase for Egosoft kind of companies more buyers in the end = more money for the ego ferrari eh. new games.

Should Steam ever need shut down,a fix will be released that makes every game you have registered Steam-free.But i guess you can't download them anymore.

[MegaBurn]

Oh woe be it to those whom question that which is Steam... This thread is insane, can't we just set aside the pro-Steam vs anti-Steam debate and find a solution for people stuck in the middle unable to use Steam? Throwing absurd arguments at people unable or unwilling to use Steam isn't going to change their minds, or the reality of their situations. A non-Steam release is not a threat to Steam, nor your games on Steam, nor ES, nor XR, nor really anything else, and it is not a sacrilege.

Slashman,
Indeed, most of these threads are recurring arguments over "what we know we don't know" and "what we don't know we don't know" while people ignore what we do know. True, we can't know, or even speculate with useful accuracy, maximum customer losses, but its not really important here. We can speculate with reasonable accuracy minimum thresholds for a non-Steam release to be viable.

On the loss of customers being unnecessary, you don't have to be a professional, free open source game development, and even modding experience is sufficient in this case. I'm suggesting a secondary release channel, possibly semi-private (e.g. L3/club), possibly semi-formal (i.e. Steam add-on), probably delayed a month or two, and nothing more than I'm fairly confident I could do myself, if I had access. I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but for those it will, yes, not doing it is an unnecessary loss.

On my indifference to the apparent hostility of overtly pro-Steam people, that quote is out of context and distorted, badly. Yes, yes, games like this are a volume sales business, ES can write us off as an acceptable loss alongside piracy, no individual customer is of any significance to the bottom line, to think otherwise is a delusion of grandure, and so on. That "if you're not with us then you don't matter" argument is asinine, no wonder people choose torrents over spending obscene amounts of time arguing in pointless threads like this...

On the non-Steam executable, and there's the key point. As I see it that guts most of the anti-Steam-alternative arguments. Doing a direct download release, with a "NDA-lite" in place of DRM, and an ES store entry to pay for the bandwidth, is just a step beyond that non-Steam executable. There are no development obstacles, they're doing it anyway. There are no website obstacles, its the same difference. Hosting might be an issue, but at worst they can add a cloud host (e.g. Amazon AWS). Legal obstacles depend on publisher control, hard to speculate but I'd assume ES could do it if they wanted. Customer service and warranty responsibility, or liability, might be a problem, but should be covered by the publisher, or Steam (depending on how its done), or could be limited to forum support only (could be problematic).

I think the biggest obstacle is getting non-Steam users together to hash out a decent proposal.


NUKLEAR-SLUG,
On my indifference to the apparent hostility of overtly pro-Steam people, again, that quote is out of context and very distorted. Yes, I know, we're supposed to think we're meaningless, but that only works if people quietly go along with it. I say make some noise and see what happens, at best we'll get a non-Steam release, at worst they'll ban me.

On non-Steam release costs, that argument might work for a retail box release, or cross platform release, but they're already doing both. Might even work if there was some significant technical challenge, there aren't any I can see. That argument just doesn't work in this case.

On ES owing us anything, or vise versa, I hadn't considered it. Existing customers are guaranteed sales, assuming they're given the option to buy - as opposed to pirates, which may not being able to buy even if given the option, and as such cannot be counted as lost sales. Beyond that, the only decent argument that comes to mind is ES owing community contributors, and a lot at that. I think anyone who released a significant mod for X3 (any) should get a free copy of XR, and that L3 users should get free direct download access just for registering XR to their forum profile. I think something similar could be done for highly ranked players, prolific fan fiction writers, artists, people with multiple licenses of a game, people with very high post counts, and so on. Just on good faith that they'll continue to invest vast amounts of their free time in supporting ES' products, without any expectation of either pay or even free games. But no, strictly speaking, they don't owe us anything, nor do we owe them anything.

I won't be left behind so easily, besides, it doesn't work that way online...


GebürtigerTerraner,
Its true but also misleading, digital distribution allows ES to do high-volume low-profit long-term sales of older games, which would otherwise only make money from occasional bundle release like the X-Superbox. How much of that should be credited to Steam specifically is debatable, they have tried other digital distributors with marginal results but that was a while ago. I guess that makes Steam exclusivity sentimental. Its misleading though, and is in effect looking at it backwards. For new releases its usually a short term flood of sales via several distribution channels, which eventually slows to a long term trickle via one or two, as the market value of the game is exhausted. Now keep in mind different channels have different costs, benefits, and drawbacks. A smaller in-house direct download release (secondary channel) "piggy backed" on another larger release (primary channel) is about as easy and inexpensive as it can get, and in ES' case its even less with their existing site infrastructure and customer base.


Roger L.S. Griffiths,
I doubt that, and yes, those main issues look much clearer, as clear as thin air. Yes, yes, Steam is the inevitable march of progress and we must conform or be abandoned – doesn't that sound disturbingly familiar though?

The club idea, for lack of a better term, is just a starting point, I was hoping for some discussion to come up with something better but that seems impossible here. Stilling thinking on how to do a new thread - need to somehow appeal to non-Steam users without is being apparent to pro-Steam users it has anything to do with Steam, without confusing people, and without it being excessively wordy (a constant struggle).

These posts are too time consuming...

[hartza76]

Stut up and take my money. I love games wihout steam interaction but i have used steam from 2002 so i dont care less

Also offcourse im worried that my 52+ games will be gone some day to the bit heavens sadly when steam is closed. But that true to dvd games too i have allready games that without extensive tinkering wont work in W8

Also or what i read about Bernt said that steam has made actual sales lucrative so its not that bad media to relaase for Egosoft kind of companies more buyers in the end = more money for the ego ferrari eh. new games.

Should Steam ever need shut down,a fix will be released that makes every game you have registered Steam-free.But i guess you can't download them anymore.

yeah i know that part but just didnt add in the post. But ok there time for everyting i dont think in next 5-10y i would be even wanting play the olders of my games in steam. Sadly most of those are the bulk stuff what is realease nowadays to make money not to last so one play trought sadly is enought.

Offcourse i think this way i have paid money so in part i would then in futuere want my copies of the game done (burned to media by me then) for sake of having them cos i paid them.