Actually, if you're using Vista or later, Windows *does* make use of that extra RAM--it preloads commonly used stuff into it when you boot Windows so they're faster to access, so it's actually possible for your machine to be faster with more RAM in it. Won't make any difference to your actual frame rate in a game, of course, but it might make a difference to how long it takes the next sector to load.NUKLEAR-SLUG wrote:Your computer doesn't run any faster if you've got RAM installed you're not actually making use of.
Current [POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?
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I had missed that one, I stopped coming back to the forums a few days after this thread was closed, was no need. It's good to hear, I'll keep an eye out for the Nosteam.exe and look into buying the game then.Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:For the Steam nay sayers that may have missed some of the recent discussions - you *may* be getting a NoSteam patch with-in a year of release.
And with save/load, NPC tracking, AI response, depending on the programing of coarse, can be quite a few things.pjknibbs wrote:Actually, if you're using Vista or later, Windows *does* make use of that extra RAM--it preloads commonly used stuff into it when you boot Windows so they're faster to access, so it's actually possible for your machine to be faster with more RAM in it. Won't make any difference to your actual frame rate in a game, of course, but it might make a difference to how long it takes the next sector to load.NUKLEAR-SLUG wrote:Your computer doesn't run any faster if you've got RAM installed you're not actually making use of.
He who bends himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy,
But he who kisses joy as it flies
Lives in eternities sunrise.
Does the winged life destroy,
But he who kisses joy as it flies
Lives in eternities sunrise.
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Great, another Steam thread, I hate these but feel compelled to post, again...
In short, my problem is slow dial-up, I need either, regular file download, or DVD by mail. I'm willing to sign a NDA as DRM, participate in DevNet, remain active in the community, and so on. To that end, I suggest (again) creating a "club" to provide paid access to direct downloads, patches (including betas), and anything else only available via Steam. For physical media, burn those files to DVD as informal releases -- if ES isn't overly concerned (i.e. trusts its members) then they could coordinate club members exchanging discs at-cost rather than having to deal with that headache directly. Legally, I think as long as the club members are officially considered QA/beta testers this club approach should be fine with publisher contracts (sort of a loophole).
Consider this a means of stop-loss for long term customers (X series fans) ES is otherwise guaranteed to loose due to Steam. It should not be considered a regular distribution channel, nor a significant profit stream, wouldn't be openly advertised, and may only run at break-even in terms of money, but would benefit the community in retaining veteran members.
As for the argument for- or against- Steam, I think its a moot point, some people cannot use Steam, their reasons are their own and its not for others to judge, its just the way things are.
In my case, I'm on ~26.4Kbps dial-up (~3.2KB/s, or ~10MB/hr), in a very rural area with 30-40 year old phone lines, badly neglected by Verizon, and very (painfully) slowly being upgraded by Frontier. Steam simply does not work at these speeds, its a two part problem. First, background client traffic eats around a third of that (~1KB/s), with occasional spikes to full bandwidth, which can cause downloads to timeout. Second, the client lacks file resume support, so the larger the individual files in the game update the more likely it is to timeout and start over. Server traffic and client-server connection reliability are a major factor too. Practically, and from my experience with letting it run for a couple months on Fallout NV, files less than ~10MB take several hours (each), ~20-30MB can take days, (iirc) it got a ~50MB in 8 days, and failed to download a ~100MB file over ~3 weeks. By contrast, with file resume and no client overhead, I can download a ~700MB Linux disc image in ~68-70 hours and probably 6-7GB in a month.
Ironically, and to be fair, Steam worked well for Half Life 2, HL2 Episodes 1 & 2, HL1 Source, etc. Each validated and updated within several hours, XR might have that potential if the retail DVD install is setup properly. FONV, and a lot of other games, have inefficient file structures, patches on release, and forced updates - so they don't work "out of the box" for people without decent broadband.
While it sounds absurd, maybe even obscene, I don't really have a problem with downloading XR over 6-7 weeks. Snail mail networking with DVD size "packets" is a lot faster, albeit more expensive, and difficult to manage.
In short, my problem is slow dial-up, I need either, regular file download, or DVD by mail. I'm willing to sign a NDA as DRM, participate in DevNet, remain active in the community, and so on. To that end, I suggest (again) creating a "club" to provide paid access to direct downloads, patches (including betas), and anything else only available via Steam. For physical media, burn those files to DVD as informal releases -- if ES isn't overly concerned (i.e. trusts its members) then they could coordinate club members exchanging discs at-cost rather than having to deal with that headache directly. Legally, I think as long as the club members are officially considered QA/beta testers this club approach should be fine with publisher contracts (sort of a loophole).
Consider this a means of stop-loss for long term customers (X series fans) ES is otherwise guaranteed to loose due to Steam. It should not be considered a regular distribution channel, nor a significant profit stream, wouldn't be openly advertised, and may only run at break-even in terms of money, but would benefit the community in retaining veteran members.
As for the argument for- or against- Steam, I think its a moot point, some people cannot use Steam, their reasons are their own and its not for others to judge, its just the way things are.
In my case, I'm on ~26.4Kbps dial-up (~3.2KB/s, or ~10MB/hr), in a very rural area with 30-40 year old phone lines, badly neglected by Verizon, and very (painfully) slowly being upgraded by Frontier. Steam simply does not work at these speeds, its a two part problem. First, background client traffic eats around a third of that (~1KB/s), with occasional spikes to full bandwidth, which can cause downloads to timeout. Second, the client lacks file resume support, so the larger the individual files in the game update the more likely it is to timeout and start over. Server traffic and client-server connection reliability are a major factor too. Practically, and from my experience with letting it run for a couple months on Fallout NV, files less than ~10MB take several hours (each), ~20-30MB can take days, (iirc) it got a ~50MB in 8 days, and failed to download a ~100MB file over ~3 weeks. By contrast, with file resume and no client overhead, I can download a ~700MB Linux disc image in ~68-70 hours and probably 6-7GB in a month.
Ironically, and to be fair, Steam worked well for Half Life 2, HL2 Episodes 1 & 2, HL1 Source, etc. Each validated and updated within several hours, XR might have that potential if the retail DVD install is setup properly. FONV, and a lot of other games, have inefficient file structures, patches on release, and forced updates - so they don't work "out of the box" for people without decent broadband.
While it sounds absurd, maybe even obscene, I don't really have a problem with downloading XR over 6-7 weeks. Snail mail networking with DVD size "packets" is a lot faster, albeit more expensive, and difficult to manage.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." -Plato
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Not another Steam thread, just the old one re-openedMegaBurn wrote:Great, another Steam thread, I hate these but feel compelled to post, again...


Too many assumptions, you are assuming the either the majority or a significant portion of the veteran fan contingent of this forum are in a similar situation to you. I would bet it is a very vocal minority in actuality, but I do not have indisputable statistics to support my theory and the various polls wrt Steam in this forum does not constitute indisputable statistics supporting your theory either.MegaBurn wrote:Consider this a means of stop-loss for long term customers (X series fans) ES is otherwise guaranteed to loose due to Steam. It should not be considered a regular distribution channel, nor a significant profit stream, wouldn't be openly advertised, and may only run at break-even in terms of money, but would benefit the community in retaining veteran members.
I sympathise with your situation, perhaps someone could send you a Steam back-up on a couple of DVDs? (with approval from Egosoft of-course).MegaBurn wrote:While it sounds absurd, maybe even obscene, I don't really have a problem with downloading XR over 6-7 weeks. Snail mail networking with DVD size "packets" is a lot faster, albeit more expensive, and difficult to manage.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)
"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55
"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb
"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams
"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55
"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb
"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams
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True, but I think it's a given that if Windows is preloading background data then your RAM is "being used"pjknibbs wrote:Actually, if you're using Vista or later, Windows *does* make use of that extra RAM--it preloads commonly used stuff into it when you boot Windows so they're faster to access, so it's actually possible for your machine to be faster with more RAM in it. Won't make any difference to your actual frame rate in a game, of course, but it might make a difference to how long it takes the next sector to load.NUKLEAR-SLUG wrote:Your computer doesn't run any faster if you've got RAM installed you're not actually making use of.

Give Microsoft credit where it's due, they're usually pretty good at bloating out software, but there's a limit to the amount of RAM even Windows can eat in normal use so that point of diminishing returns still holds true.
Not being able to use Steam due to a physical limitation such as yours is understandable and I don't think you'll have much luck finding anybody in the pro-Steam camp that has ever argued against that fact. Refusing to use Steam because of some kneejerk reaction to change or misinformed understanding of how it works is another matter, especially if that's negatively influencing others who may yet be undecided on the matter.MegaBurn wrote:As for the argument for- or against- Steam, I think its a moot point, some people cannot use Steam, their reasons are their own and its not for others to judge, its just the way things are.
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You have some kind of confirmation on this? I haven't seen any official word on a no-steam exe.Matthew94 wrote:Seeing as there will be a nosteam.exe coming abut a year after launch, does this mean that X:R might be sold on shopfronts like GOG then?
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.
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Bernd talked about it in the AMA on reddit.Slashman wrote:You have some kind of confirmation on this? I haven't seen any official word on a no-steam exe.Matthew94 wrote:Seeing as there will be a nosteam.exe coming abut a year after launch, does this mean that X:R might be sold on shopfronts like GOG then?
It means nothing,its lika schamalamadingdong or give peace a chance!
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What was said exactly? Is there a link?GebürtigerTerraner wrote:Bernd talked about it in the AMA on reddit.Slashman wrote:You have some kind of confirmation on this? I haven't seen any official word on a no-steam exe.Matthew94 wrote:Seeing as there will be a nosteam.exe coming abut a year after launch, does this mean that X:R might be sold on shopfronts like GOG then?
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.
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You need to break this bad habit and learn to read before answering, the answer was provided (AMA on Reddit) and the link is your choice of search engine. Just once more I'll help you since, and I'm not trying to be offensive in anyway, the problem with the net is you can't always tell what a persons limitations are.Slashman wrote:What was said exactly? Is there a link?GebürtigerTerraner wrote:Bernd talked about it in the AMA on reddit.Slashman wrote:You have some kind of confirmation on this? I haven't seen any official word on a no-steam exe.Matthew94 wrote:Seeing as there will be a nosteam.exe coming abut a year after launch, does this mean that X:R might be sold on shopfronts like GOG then?
I'm not trying to be insensitive but I continually notice you will ask for "proof", then "expansion of proof", and finally write something which shows totally ignorance to that persons hard work and research.
I prefer www.duckduckgo.com, but I checked www.google.com and found the above link easily enough there as well.
I've also found forums with similar links through the EgoSoft forums by using the syntax "nosteam" or "nosteam.exe"
Edit: Before I finished I see someone else has posted a link to a thread about Reddit and the discussion in question.
He who bends himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy,
But he who kisses joy as it flies
Lives in eternities sunrise.
Does the winged life destroy,
But he who kisses joy as it flies
Lives in eternities sunrise.
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cw8 wrote:You sound like someone that worries way too much and doesn't use Steam. If you cancel your download it will not restart at 0% the next day. Well if you CANCEL it might since CANCEL means to Cancel. If you suspend it or just shut down Steam or your PC while Steam is downloading it will pick right up where it left off. Offline modes works. "Autopatching and faulty patch" I have never had a faulty patch and I have over 200 games on steam so I have a lot of experience with Steam patching and not once have I had a faulty patch. You can also set it not to auto patch but why would you unless you have ISP issues.DarkKlown77 wrote:
Still have to worry about games on Steam not working, offline mode not working, cancelling my 8gb download and starting from 0% when I resume the next day, autopatching a faulty patch which I either have to install or play without patches. Also, Steam's not the only store, so the games on the other stores do not get scratched, lost etc.
Steam isn't the only store its just the best. What is it these other stores offer you that Steam doesn't?
I voted YES BTW
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"Same applies to sites like GoG. I "lost" some games from my Steam account once and had to produce my Steam receipt to prove my purchase before they would give them back, like they don't have a copy of that. Plus you can "back-up" hard copies. "
I'm curious how did you lose a game from Steam?
I had my account hacked once and I had to supply some proof who I was and the best way was to supply them a picture of the Orange Box (which I had bought at a store) with the code but it was to verify I was who I said I was and of course they have a copy, that's how they know you supplied the real info, something a faker wouldn't have.
Steam doesn't know who they are talking to so you need to provide proof just like any business would want if you contact them.
So how did you lose your game?
I'm curious how did you lose a game from Steam?
I had my account hacked once and I had to supply some proof who I was and the best way was to supply them a picture of the Orange Box (which I had bought at a store) with the code but it was to verify I was who I said I was and of course they have a copy, that's how they know you supplied the real info, something a faker wouldn't have.
Steam doesn't know who they are talking to so you need to provide proof just like any business would want if you contact them.
So how did you lose your game?
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First of all I didn't 'answer' anything. I asked if there was confirmation on the no-steam patch coming out because Egosoft had never up until this point committed to one for Rebirth.Ebany wrote: You need to break this bad habit and learn to read before answering, the answer was provided (AMA on Reddit) and the link is your choice of search engine.
People post things all the time and misinterpret the source. It has happened countless times throughout the Steam discussion.
Secondly, since I have no personal vested interest in a no-steam patch, it isn't something I'd go looking for.
And yet you still manage to come off offensive anyway.Just once more I'll help you since, and I'm not trying to be offensive in anyway, the problem with the net is you can't always tell what a persons limitations are.

Point me to an example where this happened. If I ask for proof of a statement, then in all likelihood, it is something that I wasn't aware of. I'm not sure what 'hard work' has to do with anything. It's cutting and pasting a link. And while I'm grateful when someone does it, I wouldn't expect it to have cost them the same effort as running a 10K.I'm not trying to be insensitive but I continually notice you will ask for "proof", then "expansion of proof", and finally write something which shows totally ignorance to that persons hard work and research.
I've provided any number of links to things that people have asked for proof of because, why would someone with a passing interest in something continually search for updated info on it if someone else already has and can link it.
I also wasn't aware there was an AMA on Reddit.

If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.
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That's nearly backward enough to be assuming, but thanks for the attempt in providing negative feedback. My only "assumption" is if people are interested in that club idea it will gain some traction in discussion. From there maybe a new thread and poll to hash out a proposal, collect some stats on basic interest, send the consensus to an admin for ES feedback, and wait for a response.Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:Too many assumptions, you are assuming the either the majority or a significant portion of the veteran fan contingent of this forum are in a similar situation to you. I would bet it is a very vocal minority in actuality, but I do not have indisputable statistics to support my theory and the various polls wrt Steam in this forum does not constitute indisputable statistics supporting your theory either.MegaBurn wrote:Consider this a means of stop-loss for long term customers (X series fans) ES is otherwise guaranteed to loose due to Steam. It should not be considered a regular distribution channel, nor a significant profit stream, wouldn't be openly advertised, and may only run at break-even in terms of money, but would benefit the community in retaining veteran members.
So how 'bout it? Anyone interested in this idea?
Overview, again: A sort of club for direct download access to X games, DRM-free but with a "lite" NDA sort of like requesting devnet access. Feature list (ideas):
-1- Extend existing ES site download system and CD/license key management with a user level for direct download access. So, in practice, people would buy a game license from the ES store or Steam, buy a "club" membership from the ES store, register both in their forum profile, submit the club access form with contact info for NDA-lite, and when accepted, download the game from the downloads section on the homepage. As normal, the license is transferable to/from Steam, and usable in parallel (e.g. to download from ES then validate in Steam, for cases where large Steam downloads are problematic but the Steam-only features are wanted).
-2- Informal DVD releases, all are direct download files burned to disc, probably a series of options including: A higher price option with the disc burned and shipped immediately. A lower price option, where orders are collected, pre-paid, then discs are burned and shipped in batches, in whatever fashion is the most cost effective for ES. Offer oversight for members to share discs, including copies of ES discs, direct download files burned to disc, and Steam backups burned to disc. Disc sharing oversight could include member match making (e.g. forum), license checks, reputation tracking (e.g. forum profile widget), reference info or disc images of ES informal releases, and general tracking (log everything).
-3- Various other "fan club" or digital collectors edition sort of features, like more frequent news, members only galleries (art, screenshots, wallpapers, videos, music, etc), cut or unused content (especially music tracks and ship models), etc. Could make it a sort of repository of misc stuff developers feel like sharing, but without the formality of it being "official", and some comfort in the NDA containing wild speculation on the forums.
-4- Could turn it into paid L3 access (i.e. semi-useful beta testers), with merit based access awarded to productive community members (i.e. wanted beta testers).
-5- Community portal site with various members-only special features. Like a fairly simple Joomla site, lots of stuff can be added via just installing a bunch of extensions (site mods), granting people posting privileges, and offering some encouragement. I suggested doing this for the modding community, several times... Last I checked (over a year ago), there were a few project management extensions available, suitable for mod teams, and directory systems ideal for cataloging mods. The core CMS is ideal for static articles, like the MSCI reference, game data reference info, tutorials, even fan fiction. Its easy stuff, I've built, hosted, and managed several Joomla sites, can be very time consuming though. The main challenge is getting people to post decent quality content on a regular basis. The point of ES hosting their own community site is for devs to use it too, so to make it useful it could be extended to replace most of the old X2 era devnet subsite stuff, some of which could be made available to club members.
-6- Dynamic membership features, for examples: Once a member always a member, but features which have an ongoing cost to maintain could be setup on a shorter subscription interval, while other low/trivial cost stuff is always available. Members only content could be game specific, extending the current downloads system. Community contributors granted membership might have differing access than paid members, like not having the collectors edition type stuff, but might have expanded L3/similar access. Top ranked players could have access to special content. Could have different membership levels, or plans, or whatever - point being some people will want less (e.g. just direct download access), while others will want to buy access to stuff they wouldn't get otherwise (everything). Could include bonuses for people with multiple licenses for a given game.
-7- Member funded DLC projects, kind of like Kick Starter, but more focused - devs and/or members propose a DLC project, people pre-order it until a bare minimum cost threshold is met to start development, and profits come from sales on Steam. its a means for ES to reduce risk while expanding developer creative freedom, and for the community to push for (throw money at) more content. This could be extended to joint mod projects, where-in ES devs join a mod project, modders have free access, non-modder members can contribute money, and ES profits from selling it as a DLC on Steam. NDA would apply to hopefully keep leaks to a minimum.
There are lots of other possibilities. I think it should be a step, or several, beyond merely being a Steam alternative, but that is still the core issue here.
Alight, so, anyone interest? If this were available now, and reasonably priced, would you sign up? If so I can start a new thread, with a poll, and we can hash out exactly what people want, then submit a proposal to ES. If not, this will be my last post on the topic.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." -Plato
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A lot of effort for an uncertain profit. If you are going to propose it, you should back your words with some analysis - how much it will cost to maintain long-term payment system, all this site changes, moderation, other stuff. And what it will give? A bunch of old-timer geeks?
And anyway, devnet is a bad idea. Devnet is a devnet, not some sort of special prized club.
And anyway, devnet is a bad idea. Devnet is a devnet, not some sort of special prized club.
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No, general interest and discussion first. These posts take hours to write, detailed analysis or a crude business plan is real work, which could take tens of hours to write... No, my effort on this will scale with community interest.
There isn't enough information for detailed cost analysis. Need a vague idea of expected traffic, file sizes, current hosting arrangements, their web development costs (e.g. contract rates or admin pay), and the "scale" and "style of any new hosting (e.g. 100's of GB? TB? Cloud, VPS, or dedicated servers? etc). Wild speculation would be a waste of time, misleading, and probably counterproductive.
"Old timer geeks" are the norm around here, especially the S&M crowd, and they're the ones with the money or time (usually not both) to make this work.
Devnet is treated like a special club, most L3 users only join for early access to patches, expanded read-only access would cost nothing and only further community interest. Posting privileges should still be earned.
There isn't enough information for detailed cost analysis. Need a vague idea of expected traffic, file sizes, current hosting arrangements, their web development costs (e.g. contract rates or admin pay), and the "scale" and "style of any new hosting (e.g. 100's of GB? TB? Cloud, VPS, or dedicated servers? etc). Wild speculation would be a waste of time, misleading, and probably counterproductive.
"Old timer geeks" are the norm around here, especially the S&M crowd, and they're the ones with the money or time (usually not both) to make this work.
Devnet is treated like a special club, most L3 users only join for early access to patches, expanded read-only access would cost nothing and only further community interest. Posting privileges should still be earned.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." -Plato
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well, if I ever ended up without broadband again I would pack notebook once a week/month, drive somewhere with internet, download all games and patches and return home to play them.
Or, when we had pay per hour modem connection all over country there were spots where you could send what you need to download (or use telnet to queue it yourself) and then they burn it on CD and send it by mail.
And no. I think it's bad idea. You would neglect all the good things Steam makes publishing easier
They upload new version and that's it. It patches automatically. While because of few people they would end up with the same 1.3 to 1.5, 1.3 to 1.55b, 1.5 to 1.55b system. No matter if its for 50 or 10000 people. The work is same. And you would do it for every platform. Maintaining two versions of patching (and we can see how it works for some other games where one version is not updated as it should be).
But especially if you are willing to wait (indicating you do not pay per time) what's the problem? You won't preload. You wait a day or two to see if there is immediately patch needed and then start downloading. You get a version, set it offline and you get the same as direct download won't you? When you see new patch you want you actualize the game. I would do it on different computer to be able to play in the mean time, but..
Or, when we had pay per hour modem connection all over country there were spots where you could send what you need to download (or use telnet to queue it yourself) and then they burn it on CD and send it by mail.
And no. I think it's bad idea. You would neglect all the good things Steam makes publishing easier

But especially if you are willing to wait (indicating you do not pay per time) what's the problem? You won't preload. You wait a day or two to see if there is immediately patch needed and then start downloading. You get a version, set it offline and you get the same as direct download won't you? When you see new patch you want you actualize the game. I would do it on different computer to be able to play in the mean time, but..