Playing other games

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

I'm seeing a lot of stories pouring out after the CK3 release, but I'm a little curious.

Would the same type of stories not also emerge from CK2 ?

I know the interface has been worked on a good deal to make it better looking and easier to learn your way around, but as I already have CK2 would it really be enough of an upgrade to CK3 ? I'm pretty sure that I can wait this out for a bit, as I've only just started getting into Paradox games, and I've lots of catching up to do !

But if it really is that much better an experience, then would I be foolish to stick with the old version just to save £20 or £30 - especially as the cost per hour for games of this type (and the X games too, of course) is measured in pennies?

I've only played these games after many (years of) updates have been added over the original release, so I've no experience of getting a load of new mechanics after I've got the hang of the original. Is that exciting, or just a bit annoying, having the game become easier/deeper after a time, when I could have had the benefits for the whole experience by waiting a year?

Thoughts ?

Rug

I almost never played CK2, but talking with a friends some differences (between CK3 base game and CK2 with dlcs) are:
- Baronies are now the smallest unit of land (each county contains 5-6 of those).
- Map is expanded in Africa and Asia.
- Your vassals and courtiers can become knights (based on a skill called "prowess", which is the actual ability to fight) and can make a lot of difference in battle.
- There are perks which you can obtain based on the lifestyle you choose (gathering xp points to unlock them).
- You can't play anymore a merchant republic (perhaps you will in a future dlc?).
- You can create your own religion reform by spending "faith" and choosing from quite a large variety of characteristics (e.g. you can be a buddhist, but having the communion trait. I think, but may be wrong because some "traits" are limited to certain kind of religion, but I'm sure you get what I mean).
- Councilors' skills are what matters in managing your territories and state affairs.
- You can only choose to start in 867 or 1066.

Edit: I really like it, I think it's worth the price, even if I have to admit I got it for free from MS Game Pass.

[GCU Grey Area]

Would the same type of stories not also emerge from CK2 ?

Probably, however there's enough new stuff in CK3 to make it a significantly different experience. In particular the Lifestyle system whereby each character (including all NPCs) can specialise in different aspects of the game. Stress system also adds to this - provides a big incentive to play in a manner that suits your character's personality traits. Can still do out of character stuff if it's essential but best to avoid that whenever possible. For example, a Compassionate character should really try to avoid too much assassination - tends to stress them out & they might go mad.

And I finally am Maharaja of Tamilakam!
I had to give one of my duchies to a vassal, because three duchies were too much and gave me some penalties, so I granted it to my heir's wife (this way, in the long term, a future heir would inherit).
But, and it's a big funny but (with just a single "t"): a lot of murders happening in my court and, after investigating, I noticed my heir was a serial killer (he even killed his second son!), so I had to kill him as a punishment. This execution needed to be followed by the disinheritance of my heir's firstborn, to have my second son be the legit heir to the kingdom. My ineffable plan went sideways in a couple of years. The Raja of Tondai Nadu, wife of the murderer, after the event became my "friend", someway. I was a bit confused: Middle Age India is definitely a very curious culture... Anyway, the Chola dinasty is going to inherit Tondai Nadu, even if my grandson has a very bad relation with me. I've got time to improve relations, as he's like 10.

Congratulations. Wouldn't worry about all the murdering - family trees just need to be pruned on occasion to ensure the right people inherit. Had to do a fair bit of that in my game recently. Currently up to 4 kingdom titles, all now under a Tanistry succession system. It's elective - dukes & earls also get to vote & sometimes the insist on picking the wrong people. Consequently a bit of pruning became essential to ensure the line of succession was consistent for all 4. Really need to get an imperial title. Think that cuts the earls out of the vote, so less bloodshed needed to get the votes to line up neatly.
This is the death list for my current ruler:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7pzq5k8rbio6c ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Last two on that list weren't part of the succession pruning, they were Court Chaplains with truly dreadful Learning.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Congratulations. Wouldn't worry about all the murdering - family trees just need to be pruned on occasion to ensure the right people inherit. Had to do a fair bit of that in my game recently. Currently up to 4 kingdom titles, all now under a Tanistry succession system. It's elective - dukes & earls also get to vote & sometimes the insist on picking the wrong people. Consequently a bit of pruning became essential to ensure the line of succession was consistent for all 4. Really need to get an imperial title. Think that cuts the earls out of the vote, so less bloodshed needed to get the votes to line up neatly.
This is the death list for my current ruler:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7pzq5k8rbio6c ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Last two on that list weren't part of the succession pruning, they were Court Chaplains with truly dreadful Learning.

My character is "compassionate", so I got a lot of stress from that choice. And now he's "inappetetic", which is pretty unrealistic for me, considering "gluttony" is my personal favourite sin.

[GCU Grey Area]

My character is "compassionate", so I got a lot of stress from that choice. And now he's "inappetetic", which is pretty unrealistic for me, considering "gluttony" is my personal favourite sin.

Compassionate - ugh! That is unfortunate, most inconvenient, you have my sympathy. Had one of those a couple of generations back. Didn't last long in the job, ended up drinking himself to death a few years after taking the throne. Didn't even do all that much murdering, mostly just too many events which caused stress.

[GCU Grey Area]

Think I've found a CK3 trait that's even more inconvenient than Compassionate. Strongly suggest avoiding any ruler with Shy - if they're in the line of succession should be immediately murdered (for the good of the realm) before they get any chance to inherit the throne. It truly is an awful trait for a king. Every single attempt to Sway another character (which my rulers generally do pretty much all the time) causes a big chunk of Stress. Worse than that, one of the best stress management options, Hold Feast, is utterly useless for reducing Stress. Somehow don't see this particular ruler lasting long in the job. Since Sway isn't really an option, decided to go full Tyrant for this (hopefully) short reign - max out Dread, imprison/torture anyone who even looks at him & hope like hell all his vassals end up too terrified to cause him much bother. Gong really well so far - arrested 2 of the Liberty faction & the rest instantly rose up in revolt...

Edit: It gets worse, just discovered I can't even bribe other characters (pretty much essential for successful hostile schemes). This king is also Greedy so giving away anything also causes Stress. Lesson learnt - ALWAYS check every single detail of potential heirs before deciding which ones to prune from the family tree.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Think I've found a CK3 trait that's even more inconvenient than Compassionate. Strongly suggest avoiding any ruler with Shy - if they're in the line of succession should be immediately murdered (for the good of the realm) before they get any chance to inherit the throne. It truly is an awful trait for a king. Every single attempt to Sway another character (which my rulers generally do pretty much all the time) causes a big chunk of Stress. Worse than that, one of the best stress management options, Hold Feast, is utterly useless for reducing Stress. Somehow don't see this particular ruler lasting long in the job. Since Sway isn't really an option, decided to go full Tyrant for this (hopefully) short reign - max out Dread, imprison/torture anyone who even looks at him & hope like hell all his vassals end up too terrified to cause him much bother. Gong really well so far - arrested 2 of the Liberty faction & the rest instantly rose up in revolt...

Edit: It gets worse, just discovered I can't even bribe other characters (pretty much essential for successful hostile schemes). This king is also Greedy so giving away anything also causes Stress. Lesson learnt - ALWAYS check every single detail of potential heirs before deciding which ones to prune from the family tree.

Shy is horrible: everytime you try to "sway" someone, you take stress. It's horrible! I went with it, had no reason to kill my heir, but it's nightmarish. I got a bit lucky with "journalist" coping mechanism, took from a friend of the heir, which is pretty safe to reduce stress though.
Anyway, my heir is: shy, sadistic and a genius (could be the perfect Moriarty). He's homosexual and caught in the act (so he's a deviant now), yet he has 5 (FIVE) children and counting (he's under 40 y.o.)... I mean, what kind of homosexual has that much sex with a woman? Come on! There should at least be some huge penalty for that, right?

The first ruler, instead, had 7 children, plus two bastard children. Died for the consequences of obesity, poor Rodolfo...

One thing I need to try: twin boys are born, so I really need to find a couple of twin girls and make them marry.

Note: this is from a new game I started in the county of Monferrato (Piemonte) using a mod which shatters the world at game start, so every ruler begins ruling a single county. I like it so far, the mode is called "More game rules" and adds a lot more, but I was only interested in the shattered world option.

[GCU Grey Area]

Shy is horrible: everytime you try to "sway" someone, you take stress. It's horrible! I went with it, had no reason to kill my heir, but it's nightmarish. I got a bit lucky with "journalist" coping mechanism, took from a friend of the heir, which is pretty safe to reduce stress though.
Anyway, my heir is: shy, sadistic and a genius (could be the perfect Moriarty). He's homosexual and caught in the act (so he's a deviant now), yet he has 5 (FIVE) children and counting (he's under 40 y.o.)... I mean, what kind of homosexual has that much sex with a woman? Come on! There should at least be some huge penalty for that, right?

Presumably the idea is that even if they don't enjoy it much they still know the importance of producing heirs.

Anyway, my Shy ruler, after a rocky start, ended up doing reasonably OK. Died peacefully of old age over 30 years after taking the throne, much longer reign than I initially anticipated. His coping mechanism for Stress was Seclusion - cost 150 Prestige every time, but was sufficient to prevent him going completely insane.

Full Tyrant mode definitely helped to keep his realm stable. Locking up the 2 biggest contributors to the Liberty Faction right at the start left the rest comparatively weak. Consequently the Liberty war wasn't too tough to win against what was left & could then legitimately lock up the rest for removal of titles (& body parts). Went all the way down the Torture perk tree. Turns out 100 Dread is really quite handy for keeping the realm peaceful.

Only tricky issue I had was arranging the succession. My kingdom level titles are all elective (Tanistry) & effectively all of my votes counted negatively. If my ruler voted for anyone then no one else would (seen as puppet of a Tyrant). Consequently had to murder all the candidates I really didn't like the look of (Shy, Compassionate, terrible Stewardship, etc), then vote for most popular of the remaining candidates, so everyone else would shift their votes elsewhere. Took quite a lot of murdering (https://www.dropbox.com/s/8rershjro0vy8 ... 1.jpg?dl=0), but eventually managed to manipulate the electorate into voting for my preferred heir to get the throne next.

[GCU Grey Area]

Got the Pope as my vassal now:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/djwf727ozqeuc ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Just got tired of the constant crusades to try & recapture England. They should have got the message by now - it's a Lollard nation & has been for centuries. They're simply not going to get it back. Anyway, as a reward for launching one too many crusades, Pope's now the prince-bishop of a single county in Galicia instead. Had to give him something so I could revoke his titles over Rome & surrounding area.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Got the Pope as my vassal now:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/djwf727ozqeuc ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Just got tired of the constant crusades to try & recapture England. They should have got the message by now - it's a Lollard nation & has been for centuries. They're simply not going to get it back. Anyway, as a reward for launching one too many crusades, Pope's now the prince-bishop of a single county in Galicia instead. Had to give him something so I could revoke his titles over Rome & surrounding area.

Nice!
I usualy try to keep some distance from religious wars, they're too expensive for me: the only one I joined ended in a war of attrition in northern Africa, like 10 years of sieges and counter sieges with nobody getting the upper hand.
I started a game with a mod which shatters all lords in counts only, to let everyone begin from scrap (even if there still are more important dinasties).
Going pretty well, conquered Piemonte and a couple more counties in Italy and France (now my vassals, to avoid losing them on succession).
My Duke lived an incredible 81 years life, pretty impressive for 11 centuries ago...

[GCU Grey Area]

Nice!
I usualy try to keep some distance from religious wars, they're too expensive for me: the only one I joined ended in a war of attrition in northern Africa, like 10 years of sieges and counter sieges with nobody getting the upper hand.
I started a game with a mod which shatters all lords in counts only, to let everyone begin from scrap (even if there still are more important dinasties).
Going pretty well, conquered Piemonte and a couple more counties in Italy and France (now my vassals, to avoid losing them on succession).
My Duke lived an incredible 81 years life, pretty impressive for 11 centuries ago...

Might try that mod for my next game, sounds interesting.

You're right about the high cost of religious wars. It is possible to defend against crusades, but the only way I've found is to have plenty of cash on hand at all times & hire every mercenary I can afford the day before the crusade starts. Bloody huge army is essential. Then hope it doesn't last more than 3 years, because if it does going to have to renew those contracts no matter what state my finances are in, if only to avoid the enemy being able to hire them to use against me. Last crusade I ended up well over 3k in debt by the end of it. Took years to repay.

Has been a lot of fun though & it's all down to a single character turning heretic centuries ago, then inheriting the throne. At the time did wonder if I should stick with the heresy or convert back. Really glad I kept it - definitely added to the fun & took the game in a very different direction than I was intending at the start. Lollardy is now the 4th most powerful religion in my game; currently controls 238 counties & 4/5 of it's holy sites (that's why the Pope had to go, he was squatting in one of them). Only one left to collect is Jerusalem, but means going up against the Byzantines...

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Nice!
I usualy try to keep some distance from religious wars, they're too expensive for me: the only one I joined ended in a war of attrition in northern Africa, like 10 years of sieges and counter sieges with nobody getting the upper hand.
I started a game with a mod which shatters all lords in counts only, to let everyone begin from scrap (even if there still are more important dinasties).
Going pretty well, conquered Piemonte and a couple more counties in Italy and France (now my vassals, to avoid losing them on succession).
My Duke lived an incredible 81 years life, pretty impressive for 11 centuries ago...

Might try that mod for my next game, sounds interesting.

You're right about the high cost of religious wars. It is possible to defend against crusades, but the only way I've found is to have plenty of cash on hand at all times & hire every mercenary I can afford the day before the crusade starts. Bloody huge army is essential. Then hope it doesn't last more than 3 years, because if it does going to have to renew those contracts no matter what state my finances are in, if only to avoid the enemy being able to hire them to use against me. Last crusade I ended up well over 3k in debt by the end of it. Took years to repay.

Has been a lot of fun though & it's all down to a single character turning heretic centuries ago, then inheriting the throne. At the time did wonder if I should stick with the heresy or convert back. Really glad I kept it - definitely added to the fun & took the game in a very different direction than I was intending at the start. Lollardy is now the 4th most powerful religion in my game; currently controls 238 counties & 4/5 of it's holy sites (that's why the Pope had to go, he was squatting in one of them). Only one left to collect is Jerusalem, but means going up against the Byzantines...

I'm finally king, so I don't have to worry too much about succession because everyone is going to have a lower title, so should become a vassal.
I joined a crusade to conquer the kingdom of Jerusalem: I was 3rd contributor, so my nephew ended with the county of Ghazza and another county (the one just north Ghazza).
Now, I need to conquer Italy, but the Pope is very powerful and wars against him cost a lot, thus I want to establish a new religion: it will be based on equality, but trying to setup tenets and other options, it's going to cost me some 5000 faith points (which is impossible for me...). Any trick to build up faith fast? Plus, I'd like to find a good set of virtues and sins: at the moment, with the options I choose, "Lustful" is still a sin (and it's the only one I don't like there). Current ruler is close to death (poor health, 62 years old), soon my heir is taking the throne.

[GCU Grey Area]

I'm finally king, so I don't have to worry too much about succession because everyone is going to have a lower title, so should become a vassal.
I joined a crusade to conquer the kingdom of Jerusalem: I was 3rd contributor, so my nephew ended with the county of Ghazza and another county (the one just north Ghazza).
Now, I need to conquer Italy, but the Pope is very powerful and wars against him cost a lot, thus I want to establish a new religion: it will be based on equality, but trying to setup tenets and other options, it's going to cost me some 5000 faith points (which is impossible for me...). Any trick to build up faith fast? Plus, I'd like to find a good set of virtues and sins: at the moment, with the options I choose, "Lustful" is still a sin (and it's the only one I don't like there). Current ruler is close to death (poor health, 62 years old), soon my heir is taking the throne.

In my view always have to worry about the succession. Got to ensure the right one gets the throne. May require some of their older siblings to be removed from the line of succession.

Then there's the distinct possibility of factions rising up (Independence, Liberty, etc) wanting to get their own way each time there's a new king. Essential to keep a close eye on how powerful they're getting. Marriage between close relatives of the new king (assuming you've got any left after adjusting line of succession) & kids of powerful faction members is an effective method of reducing the power of dangerous factions. Locking up one or more of the most powerful faction members also does this but incurs Tyranny & risks the rest rising up in revolt. However actually might want to do that. Deliberately provoking the faction war while they're still comparatively weak, rather than waiting until they're significantly stronger than your forces, can be quite useful. Then you get to lock up the rest (without it being seen as tyrannical), revoke titles & hand them out to more amenable people. Have found that winning a faction war early in a new reign can be very handy for reshaping a kingdom just how I want it.

Haven't messed with the creating new religions stuff yet. Lollardy is a standard heresy. Very tempted to try a homebrew religion in my next game, if I can with all the fun sins (e.g. Lustful) as virtues. As for getting the huge amount of Piety to set it up, strongly suspect that creating your own religion is intended to be a multi-generational undertaking. Breeding exactly the right type of ruler (high stats & appropriate traits), while all his predecessors create the groundwork by building & upgrading lots of churches in his personal domain to generate sufficient Piety in a single lifetime.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

...

On succession you're right, I usually am good with keeping every domain as a vassal though, while managing them after. As a general rule, some time before the death of my ruler I try to split my territories between friends or people I'm in good relation with and have good stats (especially stewardship), without worrying too much about their dinasty, even if checking they're not going to let my territories go to a liege which isn't under my control.

To build a religion, I think I need to maximize learning skill, picking a leader with virtues and going through the teology lifestyle. I don't know if doing it in multiple generations, because faith is bound to the single person and not the dinasty, iIrc.

[Olterin]

With regards to CK3 and custom religions, one thing I wish to point out - you only ever split off heresies off a particular baseline religion. So, a Christian faith/heresy that you found will still have the basic sins and virtues of Christians, etc. You can't just pick traits for being virtues/sins, you have to convert to a religion that has the fitting ones. With that said, certain tenets can alter the list, so there is some room to maneuver. Just keep this in mind, don't be too disappointed.

As for maximizing piety gain ... yeah, you do want a ruler that starts his reign young, with as high a learning education and stat as possible, and pursue the theological lifestyle path. But also, if you want to prepare for it, you can first create a faith that lets rulers personally hold churches to maximize that piety flow further - though admittedly you'll have to sacrifice holding proper castles for that. Or, if you're willing to exploit the game to the fullest, go with what's known as North Korea mode - enjoy holding everything yourself, for impressive men-at-arms power and piety. Provided of course that your realm is large enough. Oh, and have a way to keep your spymaster loyal, because your courtiers will eternally hate your guts if you do this.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

I'm looking for something like "good" virtues (honest, compassionate, ...), but I can't find a way to take out "chaste" from virtues (and lustful from sins). In the end, it's going to be ok even with "lustful" as a sin, it's something I can live with. Trying to found a heresy as much "equal" as possible (max tolerance for different religions, everybody can be a knight or a priest, priests can marry, but I think I'm keeping "male preference" for succession, to avoid having to force matrilineal marriages for my daughters), and that's probably why it's so expensive.

[GCU Grey Area]

On succession you're right, I usually am good with keeping every domain as a vassal though, while managing them after. As a general rule, some time before the death of my ruler I try to split my territories between friends or people I'm in good relation with and have good stats (especially stewardship), without worrying too much about their dinasty, even if checking they're not going to let my territories go to a liege which isn't under my control.

Have really come to appreciate the 'Grant to Low Noble' option, to give holdings to a Baron who essentially has no family to pass it onto (reverts back to part of the current character's domain when they die). Keeps it out of the hands of nobles who might cause trouble & Baronies can be revoked at any time without causing Tyranny. Just annoys the Baron, but since they have no other land, troops, etc, there's not much they can do about it. Found it's a good way to sort of hold onto titles whenever I've got a ruler with lowish Stewardship, or if I want to be able to switch counties between religious & military focus.

To build a religion, I think I need to maximize learning skill, picking a leader with virtues and going through the teology lifestyle. I don't know if doing it in multiple generations, because faith is bound to the single person and not the dinasty, iIrc.

That's true about Piety being linked to the specific character & is lost when they die. However the buildings from which it is partly generated are passed on between generations & each one can improve their Piety generating facilities. Also some inheritable traits are damn handy. Was fortunate to get Genius (essentially +5 to every stat) in one of the early generations in my game & almost all of my rulers since have had one of the intelligence traits. My current ruler ended up with Genius + Robust. Fantastic combination, hopefully the health boost will help him live longer (if playing the religious game longer life = more piety). That's the sort of thing I was meaning about it being a multiple generation undertaking - keep good traits in the family line, while each generation increases the amount of Piety the next will get from their domain.

[GCU Grey Area]

As for maximizing piety gain ... yeah, you do want a ruler that starts his reign young, with as high a learning education and stat as possible, and pursue the theological lifestyle path. But also, if you want to prepare for it, you can first create a faith that lets rulers personally hold churches to maximize that piety flow further - though admittedly you'll have to sacrifice holding proper castles for that.

Lollardy might be a good one to start from. Has the Lay Clergy doctrine which provides direct control of temple holdings. Doesn't seem to cause any problems with owning castles - got lots of those too.

[Olterin]

As for maximizing piety gain ... yeah, you do want a ruler that starts his reign young, with as high a learning education and stat as possible, and pursue the theological lifestyle path. But also, if you want to prepare for it, you can first create a faith that lets rulers personally hold churches to maximize that piety flow further - though admittedly you'll have to sacrifice holding proper castles for that.

Lollardy might be a good one to start from. Has the Lay Clergy doctrine which provides direct control of temple holdings. Doesn't seem to cause any problems with owning castles - got lots of those too.

By "sacrificing holding castles" I meant that to hold churches yourself you have to give up on having more castle holdings due to the domain size limit mechanic. But yeah, Lollardy seems like a good one to start from if that is the case (I didn't actually check their tenets yet), since converting seems to be pretty much always cheaper than making your own faith.

[Mightysword]

Been playing Thea/Thea2 the last few days. Strangely addicting. It feels like there isn't another game that is quite like it.

[GCU Grey Area]

Turns out I was wrong about how long it would take to get enough Piety to change religions in CK3. Can be done in a single lifetime, if you have the right starting point. Just did it in a fresh game as a Norse ruler:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kt4134ettr7zw ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Main thing that made it viable was the Human Sacrifice tenet in Asatru - you get Piety from executions. Accumulated just over 5k Piety by the time my character was at death's door, which was enough to do most of what I wanted. Incidentally well worth taking the Know Thyself perk, so you get a year's warning of when death's imminent. Just enough time for one last raid along the coast of the Baltic, grab a few more captives & execute them on the spot for a bit more Piety.