Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

[Slashman]

Agree to that, even though I pose a simple question: If X4 is supposed to be the sequel of X3 why take away so much (with very little added in return)? With such drastic changes in game play (and I don't mean the new engine) it should be named something like "X Economy" or something leaving the X(put number here) to pasture... and everybody would have been dully warned that it is nothing like what they expected to find...

I wonder how many people would have been assuaged by the name change. X Rebirth was touted as not being a sequel of the X games and people were still extremely disappointed by what was in it.

If it is from Egosoft and it has the X name. People are going to assume, whether justified or not, that it is an X game. I doubt that you would have come into the game and been any more satisfied if it was named "X - Executive Branch" or something to hint that it was focused on the economy more than other aspects of the game. Other games that tried it were not successful in not drawing comparisons from previous games by the developers. Think XCom Chimera Squad...people still compared it to XCom even though it was markedly different in some aspects.

Still with all of that said. It is still an X game. It is their universe and they have a right to name it whatever they want.

For my part I waited until it was a year old and then bought the collectors edition. Have not regretted it. I made sure there were things inside the game that I liked and wanted to play. I knew that Egosoft always has barebones launches. So I bided my time and have only been pleasantly surprised with every update and expansion. I'm sorry if you had a different experience.

[dtpsprt]

...................................

If it is from Egosoft and it has the X name. People are going to assume, whether justified or not, that it is an X game. I doubt that you would have come into the game and been any more satisfied if it was named "X - Executive Branch" or something to hint that it was focused on the economy more than other aspects of the game. Other games that tried it were not successful in not drawing comparisons from previous games by the developers. Think XCom Chimera Squad...people still compared it to XCom even though it was markedly different in some aspects.

Still with all of that said. It is still an X game. It is their universe and they have a right to name it whatever they want.

...............................

Not really... I would call it quite misleading... trying to "lure" all the "old" players in, while knowing very well that it was massively different and if stated as such it would have to "shop" for a new clientele...

[Slashman]

...................................

If it is from Egosoft and it has the X name. People are going to assume, whether justified or not, that it is an X game. I doubt that you would have come into the game and been any more satisfied if it was named "X - Executive Branch" or something to hint that it was focused on the economy more than other aspects of the game. Other games that tried it were not successful in not drawing comparisons from previous games by the developers. Think XCom Chimera Squad...people still compared it to XCom even though it was markedly different in some aspects.

Still with all of that said. It is still an X game. It is their universe and they have a right to name it whatever they want.

...............................

Not really... I would call it quite misleading... trying to "lure" all the "old" players in, while knowing very well that it was massively different and if stated as such it would have to "shop" for a new clientele...

That right there I call BS on. There was no attempt to mislead the people who were buying the game. The developers specifically said there there would be no plots in the game. They never made any comments, AFAIK, about anything that was in the game that was not. It was known that there were no jump drives before launch. It was known that there were no major plots before launch. There was never any attempt to mislead people as to what the game contained. I know because I was there for every announcement. They also made a huge deal about a fully simulated universe economy...which we got.

After launch they then listed the things that they were adding in. Like shipyard buildings and support ships as well as additional missions. They never promised any of the things that you were complaining about. And even today they always play it very close to the vest with announcements about new things and even about fixes for things. The ability to move the player headquarters was a major announcement from a while ago which they finally fulfilled with beta 4.

So I'd say you constructed in your head what you expected to be in the game. And that's fine. But the developers never promised it.

And I would have to ask. How many old players have dropped the game completely because of the things you think are missing that make it not an X game? Do you have any numbers?

[Graaf]

I wonder how many people would have been assuaged by the name change. X Rebirth was touted as not being a sequel of the X games and people were still extremely disappointed by what was in it.

Why is a game, that is not an X-game, but that only plays out in the X-universe, sold with the X in the title and promoted as the additional chapter in the X-series? Why do you think people were disappointed for not getting a successor to X3, even if it is promoted as such?
And after the backlash of Rebirth, why do you think we were told Foundation is the real successor to X3, and even sporting the title of X4, and not sold as the successor of Rebirth and being named Rebirth 2? And why do you think people are disappointed when the game they buy isn't what was told or sold?


As for things I can do in X3 but not in Rebirth 2/Foundation:
I'm sure on some technical level I can do almost everything, except being a weapons/shields/drones/missile dealer/manufacturer. Unfortunately having fun is not on that list.
In X3 I can do whatever I want, and when I eventually get bored doing it, mostly because I acquire more money than I can spend, I start a new game and do whatever I want, etc etc. And the game is both fun and immersive while doing whatever it is I'm doing.
I have spend 52 hours playing R2/F and I stopped playing because it wasn't fun. It was boring, the game is empty. IMHO there is no immersion. Station building may be one of the 2 improvements of the game, and that's it. Walking on an mostly empty station serves no purpose and actually diminishes the entire experience, because it adds nothing interesting to the game. It certainly isn't immersive in my opinion. Loot & crafting are meaningless, but it is probably needed for some of the new storylines.

[jlehtone]

Why is a game, that is not an X-game, but that only plays out in the X-universe, sold with the X in the title and promoted as the additional chapter in the X-series?

Have the promoters stated that it is not an X-game? If they believe that they are selling an X-game, then can you blame them?

Unfortunately having fun is not on that list.

How common it is for a sequel (book, movie, game, serie) to be good? I'd say that failure is what we usually expect.
(The daily soaps that run for decades, does their fanbase recall "good seasons"?)

[Slashman]

Why is a game, that is not an X-game, but that only plays out in the X-universe, sold with the X in the title and promoted as the additional chapter in the X-series? Why do you think people were disappointed for not getting a successor to X3, even if it is promoted as such?
And after the backlash of Rebirth, why do you think we were told Foundation is the real successor to X3, and even sporting the title of X4, and not sold as the successor of Rebirth and being named Rebirth 2? And why do you think people are disappointed when the game they buy isn't what was told or sold?

Well most of the reviews that I saw were complaining about bugs and stuff that wasn't a bug but wasn't properly explained. That is one of the things that I can definitely fault Egosoft for doing. Lack of documentation and clear in-game indications of the functions of their systems. Yes they were several from X veterans, but most of them were saying that either this game had them so frustrated (bugs, lack of explanation) or that they were giving it another <insert x time> to get better. Those were mostly from 2018 and 2019. I don't think I saw any from people who were claiming that this wasn't an X game and we were somehow deceived (admittedly I did not read all 9000+). Like most games the reviews were a mix of bad and good...with the good currently outweighing the bad. Hence the Mostly Positive review rating.

As for things I can do in X3 but not in Rebirth 2/Foundation:
I'm sure on some technical level I can do almost everything, except being a weapons/shields/drones/missile dealer/manufacturer. Unfortunately having fun is not on that list.
In X3 I can do whatever I want, and when I eventually get bored doing it, mostly because I acquire more money than I can spend, I start a new game and do whatever I want, etc etc. And the game is both fun and immersive while doing whatever it is I'm doing.
I have spend 52 hours playing R2/F and I stopped playing because it wasn't fun. It was boring, the game is empty. IMHO there is no immersion. Station building may be one of the 2 improvements of the game, and that's it. Walking on an mostly empty station serves no purpose and actually diminishes the entire experience, because it adds nothing interesting to the game. It certainly isn't immersive in my opinion. Loot & crafting are meaningless, but it is probably needed for some of the new storylines.

I'm not here to convince you to try it again. In fact I suggested that you try Avorion instead as that may be closer to what you're looking for. This game is definitely not it. And if it is not for you, then so be it. Not every game can be all things to all people. It is Ok to let it go and move on.

In fact I believe that to be the healthy course of action.

[Wehrwolf_10]

As for things I can do in X3 but not in Rebirth 2/Foundation:
I'm sure on some technical level I can do almost everything, except being a weapons/shields/drones/missile dealer/manufacturer. Unfortunately having fun is not on that list.
In X3 I can do whatever I want, and when I eventually get bored doing it, mostly because I acquire more money than I can spend, I start a new game and do whatever I want, etc etc. And the game is both fun and immersive while doing whatever it is I'm doing.
I have spend 52 hours playing R2/F and I stopped playing because it wasn't fun. It was boring, the game is empty. IMHO there is no immersion. Station building may be one of the 2 improvements of the game, and that's it. Walking on an mostly empty station serves no purpose and actually diminishes the entire experience, because it adds nothing interesting to the game. It certainly isn't immersive in my opinion. Loot & crafting are meaningless, but it is probably needed for some of the new storylines.

I don't see any constructive criticism at all, in X4 you can do everything the same as in X3.
And I don't understand why people don't understand how to play this game.
Why do players need a bunch of instructions if everything is clear even to a child.

[Osbot]

...You know what the funniest part is? The good things (few) that X Rebirth had are left behind and all the bad ones imported...

Made me LOL, but it is pretty accurate. Having said that, the bad ones are more the 'less good' ones to me.

And you mention about buying a new PC to play it... I did that in December 2018 (I thought) but it turned out my I7 8700 with mechanical hard drive and (eventual) GTX 1660 wasn't good enough to play as I'd like. It took a further purchase of *another* new PC last month (over 2,200 GBP, or around USD 2,500) before I could play it comfortably in almost every scenario.

I absolutely believe the most fundamental issue with the game is the devs insistence on seeing everything simulated in all but a few instances. It can mean at times that the whole game tilts the wrong way with no means of recovery. - I wouldn't point an accusing finger and lose immersion if a monstrous Argon fleet emerged from one of the planets, after the Paranid had all but annihilated them, and formed themselves a beachhead to rebuild from. The game, as with any real life situation, needs a set of 'checks and balances' that help when things go awry. - If I could say one thing to Bernd, it would be to not let a design principle stand in the way of fun.

In gaming:

FUN > everything.

FUN > principles.

Fun is subjective. What is fun to you, may not be fun to someone else. The game is what it is. It's a sandbox "simulation". You're not the hero. You get to exist in a simulated section of a galaxy. That is what X3 was. That's what X4 is. It's not a story driven narrative. You can be the hero. Or the villain. You can save the galaxy or watch it burn, but with or without you, shit is going to happen.

If I have one word of advice for the devs. Anyone asking you to turn this into an on rails theme park narrated super hero save the universe rehash of a rehash. Please don't.

[Gavrushka]

Fun is subjective. What is fun to you, may not be fun to someone else. The game is what it is. It's a sandbox "simulation". You're not the hero. You get to exist in a simulated section of a galaxy. That is what X3 was. That's what X4 is. It's not a story driven narrative. You can be the hero. Or the villain. You can save the galaxy or watch it burn, but with or without you, shit is going to happen.

If I have one word of advice for the devs. Anyone asking you to turn this into an on rails theme park narrated super hero save the universe rehash of a rehash. Please don't.

Which is why it makes no sense to do other than offer our own opinions, and why it is nonsensical to chastise others for feeling differently.

And why we all speak with such self-assured belief we're the only one who has the right solution to any of the games 'problems.' It's a truism.

And it's why the devs must aggregate those opinions and come up with a compromise. - I think they've a pretty good job of that to date, even if I'd rather they didn't deviate from what I envisage as the 'perfect X4.'

Oh, and what bit of feedback on 'track the damned ship.' - Oh my word, that has to be the most mind-numbingly tedious mission (in my opinion ) that's ever been deposited in the X Universe.

[Graaf]

I don't see any constructive criticism at all, in X4 you can do everything the same as in X3.
And I don't understand why people don't understand how to play this game.
Why do players need a bunch of instructions if everything is clear even to a child.

I didn't say I don't know how to play the game. I said I don't see a reason to play a game that isn't fun or immersive when playing.
They made just flying your ship boring and tbh that is quite an achievement.

[jlehtone]

They made just flying your ship boring and tbh that is quite an achievement.

That is not necessarily X4's achievement. One can fly a ship in X3 until it becomes boring. Jumping into X4 and ignoring details one sees only "more of the same". In that scenario X4 merely acts as continuance of that existing boredom.

[Gavrushka]

They made just flying your ship boring and tbh that is quite an achievement.

That is not necessarily X4's achievement. One can fly a ship in X3 until it becomes boring. Jumping into X4 and ignoring details one sees only "more of the same". In that scenario X4 merely acts as continuance of that existing boredom.

My favourite part of X4 is standing on the bridge of an L/XL ship and just watching the galaxy go by. Every now and then, I issue an order or two from the map, but then it's back to chilling. But I love flying the ships too. - I did in X3, but it was avery different experience. Am I right in thinking you couldn't be a passenger previously? Damn, my memory...

We're all different, and there'll never be a one size fits all, but I'd struggle to envisage a scenario where I'd stand in a tailor's shop for two years and complain my off-the-peg suit didn't fit.

But, as I said, we're all different...

My least favourite part is now the irritating bugs which are too rare to ever reach the top of the worry pile, but can really unhinge an individual's game when they strike. Yes, I now have two fully built soggy docks on my HQ which remain ethereal to me, but not to any AI pilot. Sucks to be corporeal...

[Pares]

I didn't say I don't know how to play the game. I said I don't see a reason to play a game that isn't fun or immersive when playing.
They made just flying your ship boring and tbh that is quite an achievement.

X4 is lightyears more immersive than X3 ever was. Go back playing X3 and stop spewing bs here.

[Alan Phipps]

Bernd posted this type of thread in different forums both to give feedback to players and to encourage and gain further useful feedback from them. Do a lengthy personal argument about whether or not it is an X game and then another about how boring some might find it really offer any actual value within either context?

The game is what it is right now and its makers need to decide where and how to go forward with it, including beyond the imminent 4.00 update/DLC. Why not try to help them?

That's just my personal take on this matter, of course.

[Slashman]

Bernd posted this type of thread in different forums both to give feedback to players and to encourage and gain further useful feedback from them. Do a lengthy personal argument about whether or not it is an X game and then another about how boring some might find it really offer any actual value within either context?

The game is what it is right now and its makers need to decide where and how to go forward with it, including beyond the imminent 4.00 update/DLC. Why not try to help them?

That's just my personal take on this matter, of course.

That's kind of the heart of the problem though. As I pointed out earlier, everybody has vastly different views on what would improve the game. I don't think we'll reach any consensus here anytime soon.

That said, I would be happy with more random events taking place through out the galaxy and more things to explore and to have the locations of those things randomized whenever a new game is started...That includes the locations of "free ships" that are scattered about for claiming.

[Roeleveld]

Bernd posted this type of thread in different forums both to give feedback to players and to encourage and gain further useful feedback from them. Do a lengthy personal argument about whether or not it is an X game and then another about how boring some might find it really offer any actual value within either context?

The game is what it is right now and its makers need to decide where and how to go forward with it, including beyond the imminent 4.00 update/DLC. Why not try to help them?

That's just my personal take on this matter, of course.

That's kind of the heart of the problem though. As I pointed out earlier, everybody has vastly different views on what would improve the game. I don't think we'll reach any consensus here anytime soon.

That said, I would be happy with more random events taking place through out the galaxy and more things to explore and to have the locations of those things randomized whenever a new game is started...That includes the locations of "free ships" that are scattered about for claiming.

Personally, I would like a few of these free ships to not move too much. Although having them a bit more "in range" would be nice.

But a few more abandoned ships, hinted at by some random person in the bar (yes, need to unlock them before even being able to "hear" about them) would be nice.

As for annoying "bugs", the biggest one is being able to end up inside another ship. Just had that happen while exiting a super highway. This is before I was planning on doing the HQ-mission, so the usual "escape"
doesn't work.

[Slashman]

Personally, I would like a few of these free ships to not move too much. Although having them a bit more "in range" would be nice.

But a few more abandoned ships, hinted at by some random person in the bar (yes, need to unlock them before even being able to "hear" about them) would be nice.

Why though? Isn't the game too easy as is? Why not make their location totally random so someone can't just decide: "My formula for X4 is to go here and get this ship, then go here and get this ship. And sell this ship and I'm winning. Geez...this game is boring. Devs...why is your game so boring and predictable?"

I'm not attacking you or saying that your method is wrong btw, I'm just illustrating how hard it is to get consensus on something.

As for annoying "bugs", the biggest one is being able to end up inside another ship. Just had that happen while exiting a super highway. This is before I was planning on doing the HQ-mission, so the usual "escape"
doesn't work.

Now that is one I could do without. It doesn't happen often but when it does it is annoying. Although in every situation I've been able to let the autopilot get me out. Don't think I have ever been "stuck" for more than a few minutes.

[Pesanur]

Personally, I would like a few of these free ships to not move too much. Although having them a bit more "in range" would be nice.

But a few more abandoned ships, hinted at by some random person in the bar (yes, need to unlock them before even being able to "hear" about them) would be nice.

As for annoying "bugs", the biggest one is being able to end up inside another ship. Just had that happen while exiting a super highway. This is before I was planning on doing the HQ-mission, so the usual "escape"
doesn't work.

In 4.0 you have random abandoned ships together the "fixed" ones. They are damaged S & M factions ships that randomly bail out when attacked by enemies along the universe.

[Nanook]

...

I'm not attacking you or saying that your method is wrong btw, I'm just illustrating how hard it is to get consensus on something....

And therein lies the issue. This thread is not about getting a consensus on anything. Bernd is merely asking us to give our personal feedback on the current state of the game and what we individually would like to see done/corrected. There's no need to argue amongst ourselves about each little thing. So let's try to be positive about our negative feedback. ok?

[Roeleveld]

Personally, I would like a few of these free ships to not move too much. Although having them a bit more "in range" would be nice.

But a few more abandoned ships, hinted at by some random person in the bar (yes, need to unlock them before even being able to "hear" about them) would be nice.

Why though? Isn't the game too easy as is? Why not make their location totally random so someone can't just decide: "My formula for X4 is to go here and get this ship, then go here and get this ship. And sell this ship and I'm winning. Geez...this game is boring. Devs...why is your game so boring and predictable?"

I'm not attacking you or saying that your method is wrong btw, I'm just illustrating how hard it is to get consensus on something.

Don't worry, I don't see this as "attack"

Some of the ships can stay in the same sector, but let them end up somewhere else in that sector, so you do need to look.
And keep the distance from the center be logical (I remember one being a gazillion lightyears beyond the border?)

As for annoying "bugs", the biggest one is being able to end up inside another ship. Just had that happen while exiting a super highway. This is before I was planning on doing the HQ-mission, so the usual "escape"
doesn't work.

Now that is one I could do without. It doesn't happen often but when it does it is annoying. Although in every situation I've been able to let the autopilot get me out. Don't think I have ever been "stuck" for more than a few minutes.

Didn't try autopilot, had an auto-save from 10 minutes before. Was really one I couldn't avoid, simply crashed into an L-transporter when exiting a super highway. My ship should have been badly damaged, forcing me to hitch a ride or limp to a warf or equipment dock. (Happened in Grand Exchange IV, so shouldn't have taken too long to get to something in 18 Billion.