New interview

[A5PECT]

The Skunk can't use capital-grade weaponry or beam cannons. It gets corvette-grade weaponry.

Just like the Skunk can't trade in high-volume bulk wares. It can trade in item-class wares.

So yes, the game is consistent in regards to the player ship's relative capabilities in trade and combat scenarios.

[Teleth]

My post was more an extension of a previous argument I had with noimage about the pace of the game, not necessarily about being restricted to a single ship. noimageavailable's argument was that removing the player's ability to fly transporters forces them into a fast-paced playstyle, which isn't the case.

Well it definitely changes the trading play-style to something faster, and he is right in that regard, now your personal trading is done in two button presses and involves no effort. Egosoft are specifically forcing players out of slow roles because they arbitrary decided players don't want to do this.
Flying your own cargo places does have its merit. Maybe he preferred to read the paper on his morning e-cell run, I don't know, but I am certain some enjoyed it.

I understand that some people like to do things personally, and other people like to do things impersonally. Personally, I like to oscillate between both. So I don't view a single ship as an a good thing in and of itself, but I also acknowledge Egosoft's limitations as a developer, respect their decisions as designers, and still look forward to a lot of other things about Rebirth and its future.

Design decisions are always something to be questioned, only this time it is really Egosoft doing the questioning, where previously they moved with the fanbase's expectations of the X-series which resulted in a rather messy game.

There are literally hundreds of unsound design choices in X3.. and I expect much of the same for X:Rebirth, though I feel more optimism than prior titles. While I can say I respect Egosoft's choices and limitations in X:Rebirth you will be hard pressed to find agreement in the one ship mechanic because it damages a critical aspect of why X3 was so fun for me in the first place.

[Noimageavaiable]

My post was more an extension of a previous argument I had with noimage about the pace of the game, not necessarily about being restricted to a single ship. noimageavailable's argument was that removing the player's ability to fly transporters forces them into a fast-paced playstyle, which isn't the case.

His argument is very much relevant to my point. The X series always accommodated a vast range of different playstyles. There is the fighter jockey, the trader, the empire builder, the capital ship captain, the fleet admiral and anything in between. Now Teleth accurately describes how the new trading system negatively the trader playstyle so why did they choose to do it? Because, as Bernd confirms so happily, they find that playstyle boring as there is no "action" in it. With this new system, they want the player to just tell his trade ship what to do and go off to do something they find more interesting, which is dogfighting. So they are sacrificing the trader playstyle in favor of the fighter jockey. Same thing with capital ships. You can't fly them personally because being a ship captain/fleet admiral is boring, so you can't do it anymore. Instead you just give them some general directions and go be the fighter jockey again. And this is where pandering to the shooter crowd comes into play, because the people most likely to favor the fighter jockey role exclusively over all the other playstyles are... the shooter crowd.

[A5PECT]

Well it definitely changes the trading play-style to something faster, and he is right in that regard, now your personal trading is done in two button presses and involves no effort.

Is the number of button presses really how you gauge the depth of an economic gameplay model? I wouldn't qualify X3's trading as "better" because its trade commands required more rote muscle memorization in order to be used efficiently. Issuing a trade command in X3 takes more effort than issuing one in XR in the same way tightening a screw with your bare hands takes more effort than tightening one with a screwdriver.

Actual logistics: pricing, volumes, rates of production, rates of transportation; those are the things that should be establishing the pace and depth of trading within the game. From what we've been shown so far, all of those things are still very present in Rebirth.

Flying your own cargo places does have its merit. Maybe he preferred to read the paper on his morning e-cell run, I don't know, but I am certain some enjoyed it.

Again, I'm not denying the benefits of flying different ships personally. But if he enjoys reading the paper so much in that context, he can give one of his ships a trade order and start reading his paper while the ship executes his order. Pacing is unchanged.

He keeps bringing up being "forced into dogfighting" as though the game immediately throws enemies at the player ship every time you issue a trade run. Enlighten me if I'm missing something, but I haven't seen any preview footage demonstrating that this is the case.

While I can say I respect Egosoft's choices and limitations in X:Rebirth you will be hard pressed to find agreement in the one ship mechanic because it damages a critical aspect of why X3 was so fun for me in the first place.

The exact value of a given feature in X3 is largely subjective. How much each feature dictates your opinion of the game is a personal decision. If the removal of a single feature is enough to dissuade you from Rebirth as a whole, that's your prerogative.

...Not referring to you, specifically, of course.

[Abraxis86]

Just out of curiosity, in the context of the game, are your trade ships automated, or do they have a crew?

[Noimageavaiable]

He keeps bringing up being "forced into dogfighting" as though the game immediately throws enemies at the player ship every time you issue a trade run. Enlighten me if I'm missing something, but I haven't seen any preview footage demonstrating that this is the case.

You're the only one who's using the word force. Of course you can fly behind the trade ship and watch it. Just as you can clear out one area in Call of Duty, then go get a cup of tea. But that's not what the game designers intended for you. ES has said numerous times that they don't want the player to commit such amounts of time to trading, that they want you to just give some orders on the side then go do something interesting (interesting being defined by them as fighting).

[Teleth]

Is the number of button presses really how you gauge the depth of an economic gameplay model? I wouldn't qualify X3's trading as "better" because its trade commands required more rote muscle memorization in order to be used efficiently. Issuing a trade command in X3 takes more effort than issuing one in XR in the same way tightening a screw with your bare hands takes more effort than tightening one with a screwdriver.

Actual logistics: pricing, volumes, rates of production, rates of transportation; those are the things that should be establishing the pace and depth of trading within the game. From what we've been shown so far, all of those things are still very present in Rebirth.

While I'm not exactly in disagreement with you here, you are missing a key element. The way the player interacts with it; it only feels the same to you because are only looking at the end result and not the means. Games are not at all about the end result and are all about, well.. gameplay I would hope. Abstracting trade is most definitely a reduction in depth. Egosoft claim they are removing complexity while retaining depth, but it's clear there have been sacrifices to non-combat situations.
Good or bad, I don't know, but it does make me a bit skeptical too.

Flying your own cargo places does have its merit. Maybe he preferred to read the paper on his morning e-cell run, I don't know, but I am certain some enjoyed it.

Again, I'm not denying the benefits of flying different ships personally. But if he enjoys reading the paper so much in that context, he can give one of his ships a trade order and start reading his paper while the ship executes his order. Pacing is unchanged.

My example is not a concrete idea of what players enjoyed in trucking goods. Placing an order and manually picking up goods and transferring them by hand is a completely different scope, so yes, pacing is completely different.

If someone wishes to trade 24/7 they are now unable to because their ship is not capable of it and must rely on NPCs. This is what our friend refers to as being forced into 'dogfighting'. I think it is safe to say the alternative (going AFK to wait for the next trade) and not playing the game is not an ideal gameplay mechanic, even if it was highly abused in X3.

He keeps bringing up being "forced into dogfighting" as though the game immediately throws enemies at the player ship every time you issue a trade run. Enlighten me if I'm missing something, but I haven't seen any preview footage demonstrating that this is the case.

This is because everyone knows Egosoft is aiming for the mainstream market (you can even refer to the stickies here), they're not exactly inspiring trust for the gamers that don't shoot anything.
No matter how you spin it, they are aiming to increase the excitement factor which would imply a focus on fighting and not on trading. His argument might be slightly misguided but I don't think he is entirely wrong. Ultimately we can but spew conjecture on the issue as to how it will be.

While I can say I respect Egosoft's choices and limitations in X:Rebirth you will be hard pressed to find agreement in the one ship mechanic because it damages a critical aspect of why X3 was so fun for me in the first place.

The exact value of a given feature in X3 is largely subjective. How much each feature dictates your opinion of the game is a personal decision. If the removal of a single feature is enough to dissuade you from the game as a whole, that's your prerogative.

...Not referring to you, specifically, of course.

While it personally won't affect me initially, it WILL affect the long term play for everyone in X:Rebirth regardless of opinions. There is so much variety lost by enforcing a single ship, and while perhaps it is not the end of the world, it's certainly not something I can admire as it negatively affects so many aspects of the sandbox style game world.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

I heard that making money in X Rebirth is much slower due to lack of SETA.
Altrough the Skunk has turbo booster, other player assets don´t, so traders, miners, stations, anything except the Skunk is slower.

nothing of this concludes speed of making money in any way

It actually does.
With SETA you speed up all your assets.
With turbo booster you speed up only your Skunk.

[Darth Sidian]

Well it definitely changes the trading play-style to something faster, and he is right in that regard, now your personal trading is done in two button presses and involves no effort.

It requires the same effort as in the other X games. You look for a good price, you buy goods, you look where to sell them, you fly there and sell them.
The only difference to the previous games is, that you don't have to fly a very slow freighter, but in exchange the trade still takes the time as if you fly one.

Egosoft are specifically forcing players out of slow roles

No, they don't. They give the players the possibility to speed up things. But the players can escort their freighters or even attach to it if it's a capital ship. There is no one forcing you to do other stuff while the freighter is flying.

I heard that making money in X Rebirth is much slower due to lack of SETA.
Altrough the Skunk has turbo booster, other player assets don´t, so traders, miners, stations, anything except the Skunk is slower.

nothing of this concludes speed of making money in any way

It actually does.
With SETA you speed up all your assets.
With turbo booster you speed up only your Skunk.

I think his point was that the money income is balanced with the SETA in mind. Which means, the income in the previous games is lower because the player can speed up any process, and in X:R it's higher because they can't do that. Therefore you can't draw conclusions from that.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

That´s what I said.

Money outcome in X Rebirth is NOT incrased due to lack of SETA.
That´s what that preview said.

Egosoft might have changed it since then, but we don´t know. I actually hope that they didnt.

[DaMuncha]

That´s what I said.

Money outcome in X Rebirth is NOT incrased due to lack of SETA.
That´s what that preview said.

Egosoft might have changed it since then, but we don´t know. I actually hope that they didnt.

Thats what I was afraid of.

[Teleth]

Well it definitely changes the trading play-style to something faster, and he is right in that regard, now your personal trading is done in two button presses and involves no effort.

It requires the same effort as in the other X games. You look for a good price, you buy goods, you look where to sell them, you fly there and sell them.
The only difference to the previous games is, that you don't have to fly a very slow freighter, but in exchange the trade still takes the time as if you fly one.

It's not the same effort. The mechanics are different for the player.

In X3 you had the option of doing both at the same time. Time is not the important factor, player participation is. Your time spent in the act of trading is much shorter; from now on, you will always be waiting for trade ships instead of running it yourself. Maybe that sounds like a good deal to most players, but certainly not to those that did active trading.

Egosoft are specifically forcing players out of slow roles

No, they don't. They give the players the possibility to speed up things. But the players can escort their freighters or even attach to it if it's a capital ship. There is no one forcing you to do other stuff while the freighter is flying.

'They give the players the possiblilty to speed this up' - this only proves his initial point; action has more focus than the mundane tasks of X. He doesn't want to escort the capital ship, this is a combat role. He doesn't want to attach to it, it serves no meaning to him in babysitting it.

They are forcing you into other roles while the freighter is trading. You can't do bulk trading without assistance of an NPC vessel, ever. The argument can be extended to mining ships and various other mundane roles and serves as the basis of his complaint.
If this doesn't constitute as force I don't know what does. How many ships do you need to buy to enjoy a pure trade play-through? In X3 it was one; yourself. That is an entire profession lost for the player in X:Rebirth.

Egosoft themselves have stated several times that they were steering away from these roles, "no one wants to pilot a slow capital ship, that was boring."
I just hope they don't extend this logic to the next game. Economies are horribly boring after all: "no one really liked trading because it was slow."
Slippery slope Egosoft..

[Bobucles]

You can't do bulk trading without assistance of an NPC vessel, ever.

The purpose of big trade ships is to trade in the big goods that build stations and keep them running. So no, you won't be feeding or building stations with the Skunk. However, there is a second layer of item trading that you can do. It is a personal trade option using the smaller classes of goods(examples might be luxuries or medicine or rare gems). Small things can still be very valuable.

In addition to that layer of trade, there is a whole new exploration bit using the Skunk to scan stations or tag asteroids or wander the void for sweet loot.

It all sounds good to me. The inability to personally instatrade 50000 energy cells isn't a bad thing. What we lose is pittance for the gain in how those mega trades create and shape the game world.

[Darth Sidian]

Your time spent in the act of trading is much shorter

No, it isn't. Because in the previous X games, the act of trading took only a few seconds. Most of the time, you were flying around or use the autopilot while managing other ships.
If that's what you want, you can still do that. If you only want to trade without managing, X:R gives you the option to do that and reduce the time you otherwise have to spend on doing nothing.

How is that not an improvement?

He doesn't want to escort the capital ship, this is a combat role. He doesn't want to attach to it, it serves no meaning to him in babysitting it.

They are forcing you into other roles while the freighter is trading.

No. The freighter isn't trading. It's transporting. If you don't want to stay near your freighters, you don't have to. You can also do "item trading" in the meantime if you absolutly don't do anything but buy things, fly with your ship anywhere else, and sell stuff there.

How many ships do you need to buy to enjoy a pure trade play-through? In X3 it was one; yourself.

That is an entire profession lost for the player in X:Rebirth.

And the answer for X:R is: None. You can do it with your ship via item trading. You get a freighter during the first few minutes of the plot to increase trading efficiency, als well as your own space station in the first few hours.
The profession is not lost. It's even more attractive than ever.

Egosoft themselves have stated several times that they were steering away from these roles, "no one wants to pilot a slow capital ship, that was boring."

Their statement relating to capital ships have nothing to do with these roles.

[Teleth]

Your time spent in the act of trading is much shorter

No, it isn't. Because in the previous X games, the act of trading took only a few seconds. Most of the time, you were flying around or use the autopilot while managing other ships.
If that's what you want, you can still do that. If you only want to trade without managing, X:R gives you the option to do that and reduce the time you otherwise have to spend on doing nothing.

How is that not an improvement?

The act of trading IS flying around and using autopilot. You never had to do it, but it was an option. Now it's not an option.. you're saying that is an improvement?
I'm not saying that they haven't minimized the tedium of trading, only that it removed the player profession of hauling cargo yourself.

He doesn't want to escort the capital ship, this is a combat role. He doesn't want to attach to it, it serves no meaning to him in babysitting it.

They are forcing you into other roles while the freighter is trading.

No. The freighter isn't trading. It's transporting. If you don't want to stay near your freighters, you don't have to. You can also do "item trading" in the meantime if you absolutly don't do anything but buy things, fly with your ship anywhere else, and sell stuff there.

The term trading has a larger scope than just buying and selling the goods. Transportation is a part of 'trading' I am led to believe. I don't appreciate the attempt to undermine my argument by being pedantic about the definition of trading.

How many ships do you need to buy to enjoy a pure trade play-through? In X3 it was one; yourself.

That is an entire profession lost for the player in X:Rebirth.

And the answer for X:R is: None. You can do it with your ship via item trading. You get a freighter during the first few minutes of the plot to increase trading efficiency, als well as your own space station.
The profession is not lost. It's even more attractive than ever.

I continue to repeat my point but it seems it is lost. You can no longer trade and haul goods yourself. Bulk transport and trading are both professions and the player can not take part in the activity themselves should they choose to. This style of play is lost to players no matter how you twist it. Having NPCs do it for you is not what we are talking about.

Egosoft themselves have stated several times that they were steering away from these roles, "no one wants to pilot a slow capital ship, that was boring."

Their statement relating to capital ships have nothing to do with these roles.

You are mincing words again. Their statement relates to the fact big slow ships were not something the players supposedly enjoyed, obviously this includes freighters.
If your interpretation is different, by all means explain.

[Teleth]

You can't do bulk trading without assistance of an NPC vessel, ever.

The purpose of big trade ships is to trade in the big goods that build stations and keep them running. So no, you won't be feeding or building stations with the Skunk. However, there is a second layer of item trading that you can do. It is a personal trade option using the smaller classes of goods(examples might be luxuries or medicine or rare gems). Small things can still be very valuable.

In addition to that layer of trade, there is a whole new exploration bit using the Skunk to scan stations or tag asteroids or wander the void for sweet loot.

It all sounds good to me. The inability to personally instatrade 50000 energy cells isn't a bad thing. What we lose is pittance for the gain in how those mega trades create and shape the game world.

The question is, why do we have to lose it to gain that?

It's fine if no one believes in low margin mass trading using your own two feet but it doesn't mean everyone is going to agree.

Again, I'm not particularly vexed about trade changes, but I can understand the frustrations of people who aren't so happy about it. It seems not many can.

[Santi]

You can still be a "Space Trucker" there is item trade, with quantities ranging in the hundreds (check videos for traders stock), so nothing has been taken away, what is more, a new layer has been added to trading, the automatic traders from Rebirth are gone, the CAGs exist no more, now you have to do the trades for them, no more free money. Trade in paper, looks a lot better than ever.

[Bobucles]

You can still trade with the Skunk. We don't know how in depth it's going to be unfortunately, but I think it's safe to say it can handle M class cargo.

The question is, why do we have to lose it to gain that?

It's fine if no one believes in low margin mass trading using your own two feet but it doesn't mean everyone is going to agree.

Because big trade controls how QUICKLY these things happen. Remember building stations in X3? It was 90% hauling, 5% shopping, and 5% dumping it on site. Now, you can not buy a station without raw goods, and you can not build without constructors. Big ships are needed. They need time so that you have a chance to fly around in the partially constructed station, or intercept cargo in flight, or have to defend against pirates.

It's slow because it's all background stuff that plays into the bigger picture. After your empire reaches a certain size, even the slow things are going to end up unwieldy with a huge amount of things to do at once.

[Teleth]

Uh. You can still trade with the skunk. Just not XL cargo.

low margin mass trading

You can still be a "Space Trucker" there is item trade, with quantities ranging in the hundreds (check videos for traders stock), so nothing has been taken away, what is more, a new layer has been added to trading, the automatic traders from Rebirth are gone, the CAGs exist no more, now you have to do the trades for them, no more free money. Trade in paper, looks a lot better than ever.

Space trucking in the Skunk yes. Mass trading goods in a huge freighter yourself no. Again, not saying the changes are bad, only that removing 'slow' choices for the player is.

The skunk does not replace 150 or so different ships and their roles in the X Universe. The argument was that Egosoft had shifted their goalposts from a slower gameplay to a faster gameplay one, and with it disappeared certain playstyles.

In any case, I'm done arguing my viewpoint for today.

[DaMuncha]

How are we supposed to manage our huge trade empire by having to do every little trade manually. Thats a 8 hour a day job at work and then I come home to do a 8 hour a day job in XR. I'd have no time to do anything else.

Aquaphina - you know what I think that means? "the end of water as we know it"