[MOD iP] New Dimensions [Alpha 4.2] (Update 06/09/10)

[Ketraar]

Well you can't just make the exploit available in some docks, its either gone or not, no grey area.
Thinking a bit about this one I just realised there is another "exploit" that wont and can't be removed its the "sell any ship and get ~50% including content" trick. That should make for pirates and salvager to get some credits from their looting and its even a reasonable one.
I think that setting up a IRE-plex and just being able to sell unlimited amounts to any Dock is just wrong.

then you're going to have to compensate for that loss some other way

No we don't actually, the whole point of this mod is to have a challenge, if an exploit is removed there might be no need to balance it back, since it was imbalanced in the first place.

MFG

Ketraar

[Nanook]

...

then you're going to have to compensate for that loss some other way

No we don't actually, the whole point of this mod is to have a challenge, if an exploit is removed there might be no need to balance it back, since it was imbalanced in the first place. ..

It may have been imbalanced from the standpoint of selling unlimited amounts of your own wares to a dock, but it also allowed you, as a pirate or salvager, to have a market for things you couldn't otherwise sell. And that's the part that should be replaced, IMO. And forcing the player to sell such loot as cargo in a ship, to me at least, is not an acceptable alternative.

It also doesn't go at all well with the concept of not being friends with everyone, which is a major part of your mod. You have to have at least a 'black market' capability to sell items that only unfriendly races buy. It needs to be dealt with, and not by using the 'bandaid' approach of selling as cargo, IMO.

Whatever, it's your mod and you can do what you wish. However, I think it's a bit ironic that you remove this 'exploit', that requires the player to invest a lot of time and money into to even 'exploit', yet you scatter a bunch of free ships around that only require a few minutes with a repair laser to get a bunch of money. Where's the challenge in that?

Sorry, don't really mean to be so negative here, it's just that this mod matches so many of the ways I now play, that I start to get picky about some of the details. This looks to be a really awesome mod when it's completed and all the work you guys put into it is really appreciated.

[Ketraar]

yet you scatter a bunch of free ships around that only require a few minutes with a repair laser to get a bunch of money. Where's the challenge in that?

You mean other than that they are:
a) set in random positions
b) set to random type
c) replacing the already existing vanilla ones (those got removed )

The fact that you found one (and assuming its one of those and not any other bug) does not mean it was intended that they are easily spotted, just that the code spawning them has a bug.
So yes finding them will be a challenge and also an incentive for those who like to explore. (Thinking a bit for everyone here )

Also note that decisions of implementation are not just based on our wishes but mostly by what is possible, like we would like to increase the amount of weapons an Dock can store. It does not seam to me logic that a Dock can only hold 2 PPC at any given time since I need about 40isch to equip an M2, but that's not on our hands. We are looking for a way to "fix" that, but its not on the top priorities atm, but we sure look into it.

As for the Black Market, its possible to implement, I mean any anarchy port could be a so called Black Market, but again the Dock storage limitations are poor, an no, no way you get a sell all you want port.
There might be a possibility to have a system like Barter special in Pirate sector, Black Market dealers, this may be possible to implement, maybe even a Generic Mission kind of way to have some dude buy your stuff.
Just thinking out-loud, don't quote me.

MFG

Ketraar

[Nanook]

yet you scatter a bunch of free ships around that only require a few minutes with a repair laser to get a bunch of money. Where's the challenge in that?

You mean other than that they are:
a) set in random positions
b) set to random type
c) replacing the already existing vanilla ones (those got removed )

The fact that you found one (and assuming its one of those and not any other bug) does not mean it was intended that they are easily spotted, just that the code spawning them has a bug..

I originally interpreted these as bugged missions, because they were in the middle of the sectors, had hulls at ~50%, but no pilot. They looked a lot like the ships you find in either abandoned ship missions, or used ships offered for sale.

However, they could simply be misplaced 'abandoned' ships, as you say. If so, there were two that I easily found in the space of three game hours, and after repairing, sold for a total of nearly 400K. Quite a boost up for a pilot flying around in an unarmed and undershielded Disco.

Perhaps a small bug in the placement code?

[Nanook]

Oh, and one last comment before I sign off of the 'exploit' debate. I think you guys are making this out to be more than it really is. Most players that take advantage of it may do it a few times, but then realize it's not really worth the effort. It actually takes a bit of micromanagement to do it, and in the end it isn't worth the effort.

You get average price for an item selling it this way. But in TC, the NPC's will actually buy most of these items from your factory at above average price, rendering this so-called exploit a non-issue. So the only ones you're truly affecting are those players like me that use this feature to make a living as a pirate. Something to consider.

[Gavrushka]

To me the idea of New Dimensions was to make the Universe tough and unforgiving and limiting the sale of salvage to natural stockists was a logical sanction on the player (and was discussed at some length as I remember in the Previous public Alpha).

The Notoriety increases on missions, especially from a lowish rank are still hugely overstated in my opinion. - I just bought a Quasar 2nd hand for 513,000 2 1/2 hours into the game because I got such a huge rep increase from just one mission - My thoughts would be reduce rep increases by a factor of 10 AND if rep increases can be dependant on mission type aswell I'd agree with that - Defend a shipyard should get a hell of a lot more than dropping off Ecells to a Cahoona factory.

[djrygar]

Also note that decisions of implementation are not just based on our wishes but mostly by what is possible, like we would like to increase the amount of weapons an Dock can store. It does not seam to me logic that a Dock can only hold 2 PPC at any given time since I need about 40isch to equip an M2, but that's not on our hands. We are looking for a way to "fix" that, but its not on the top priorities atm, but we sure look into it.

maybe something like:
spawn player HQ, add products, and then change ownership?
could it work?
there could be custom script that would prevent selling too much ware (AL plugin-equivalent of Dockware Manager and its storage limits)

[VincentTH]

@Gavrushka

Actually the rep increase is not a problem like you stated, because if you grow rep in one race, (say Argon) the other race (Paranid) will hate you. That's one of the mod designed features, and as such is not a problem.

I still have not loaded /installed 4.1 yet, because I dread the rate of collision in 3.5. I don't believe increasing the distance would help, because the autopilot and/or the NPC move script is at fault. In my game, I was repairing a TL in Paranid Prime, and 3 of my CAG ships died.

I am still waiting till the bug with the pirate ships is fixed before jumping in. Also I don't like the timer on most of the missions, because without jumping capability, and with the increase in the sector size, it is now impossible to do most of the missions. The reward does not match the effort in doing them.

[Gavrushka]

It's the RATE that rep increases - One mission moved me 3 or 4 ranks upwards. I would like rep rate increases much, much slower and if possible focussed - and yes still see-saw with rival race reps.

The reintroduction of 2nd hand ship missions is welcome (my play style is based on buying these) BUT the ships are too cheap and I am unsure whether you can / want to do anything about it.

I reported the Quasar I bought cheaply but I've also had the following missions which are simply far too cheap:

Discover, 54% Hull, 1,799 credits

Discover, 54% Hull, 1,699 credits

Pegasus, 56% Hull, 5,400 credits.

I managed to sell these ships, after less than a minute of repair laser each, for 30,000+ each

On collisions - I don't think anything has been explicitly stated but something I feel has been done - I don't know if steering and acecleration/deceleration have been increased but I have yet to see (and hear) the frequent TS vs Asteroid/Trading station incidents in 3.5. - One thing that I THINK has been changed is that the sectors are more 3 dimensionally spread out now with many stations well above and below the ecliptic.

[Gavrushka]

I think the spawning of empty ships may need tweaking - I've been limiting my exploration to a few sectors around AP and I've now had three empty hulls appear central to sectors - 2 in HOL and one in the Wall within a few game hours. A Jaguar, Caiman and Express - They must just spawn at random times, not at the game start and I guess if I hand around the same sectors this is going to repeat.

[Ketraar]

FYI the Docks exploit will be reintroduced in next version. It seams SY cant cope with it, so can't equip your ship when buying them.

Looking for an alternative just needs a hell lot of tricking around.

*hates Hardcoded stuff*

General info: this is still an alpha so everything may need tweaking
Just make sure you report it.

MFG

Ketraar

[Gavrushka]

Held off posting in case and announcement was forthcoming:

Is there an intention to release a version that is 2.7 compatable, and, if that is the case, will that require a restart? - I've held off playing New Dimensions as the performance increase for me in 2.7 is very visible.

[X2-Illuminatus]

Yes and yes. We plan to release a 2.7 compatible version tomorrow and unfortunately a restart is required.

[Gavrushka]

It was made clear this is alpha testing and restarts would be required. It's just good to get the chance to have some input into where this is heading.

[X2-Illuminatus]

ALPHA 4.2 IS OUT

A little Update to make New Dimensions compatible to Version 2.7. In addition to a few little fixes, ships of the TM class were rebalanced and selling wares at equipment docks, although they haven't them listed, is possible again. Unfortunately the fix of this exploit caused more problems than expected. So, it was removed.

Who still plays ND Alpha 4.1 in TC version 2.6 should uninstall the A4.1 using the removeND.exe in the TC main directory, patch to 2.7 and install Alpha 4.2.

Further information as well as the download link can be found in the OP.

[Siryath]

Aparently TC 3.0 has a 12.dat/cat. I guess this means new dimensions isn't compatible right now right? Or can I just rename the new dimension file to 13?

edit: wow I see the last post is months old. I didn't see a redirect. Does this mean the project is dead?

[Gavrushka]

I think it went through a longish pause earlier on aswell when those giving their free time to put this together for us had to get on with other things, but I am not sure as to where it stands now. - Ketraar did release a section of this as a standalone Mod (growing new sectors).

[X2-Illuminatus]

I guess this means new dimensions isn't compatible right now right? Or can I just rename the new dimension file to 13?

The installer isn't compatible to the latest patch, that's true. But as most changes of the latest patches were done in version 2.7 and ND Alpha 4.2 is compatible to that version, it should be also compatible to version 3.0.

To install New Dimensions first install it via installer to an empty folder, rename cats/dats afterwards and copy then all files to your 3.0 installation.

Does this mean the project is dead?

Nope it's not dead. It's just the usual "too many other projects and real life stuff to do"-pause™.

[Siryath]

Ah, thanks very much for that clarification. I'm going to go on and play with my new interesting discovery now